The Popcorn Machine (split from grades thread)

[UK_King]

I'm sure most on here have seen this site but i hadn't tbh.

good way of seeing how Smart is shuffling the pack.

http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20121107&game=DETSAC

 

[Spike]

I'm sure most on here have seen this site but i hadn't tbh.

good way of seeing how Smart is shuffling the pack.

http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20121107&game=DETSAC

I think this would be great on it's own thread, because of the substitution tendencies that we've all been talking about. We could then follow it throughout the year, although I get the sense that the patterns will look mostly the same, even though the names may change (freezing out the hot hand, etc.)

 

[LoungeLizard]

Hey, what do you know, the banner ad at the top of the screen is for popcorn machines.

Never heard of this site before. Pretty interesting, thanks for sharing.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

well look at that. it shows players sitting on the bench for far too long at a time. we should compare it to other NBA teams and notice how they dont bench their starters for that long

the only persons rotation that looks remotely correct is Cousins, but he should still be getting closer to 40MPG if hes not in foul trouble. and some of those are just ridiculous, especially IT's

 

[Spike]

It will be interesting to see if the sub patterns change throughout the year.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

doubtful. he loves to leave people on the bench for too long

 

[VF21]

I'm beginning to see (or maybe hallucinate?) some kind of possible method in Smart's madness. I heard what he said yesterday after the game. He's building a concept of TEAM, and that means getting everyone to buy into it. How do you do that? You try all possible combinations and you see what works best.

With our young team, we don't have all the answers. Our team balance isn't quite right yet, but it's starting to head in the right direction IMHO. By not tightening the rotation to 8 or 9 players, Smart is building a team concept. You may not agree with the idea, but to me it's just another indication of how badly things had deteriorated under our revolving door coaching strategy.

I have hope. And I'll be honest - I haven't been able to say that in quite a long while.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

i think splitting minutes with IT/Brooks is the only one thats acceptable. a lot of us might not agree, but its arguable that they should split minutes. but the rest of the roster should not be this way. Tyreke should be playing 38mpg, Cousins should be playing 38-40mpg if he doesnt have foul trouble, yet Coach is only playing Cousins 32mpg even when hes not in foul trouble.....

 

[VF21]

i think splitting minutes with IT/Brooks is the only one thats acceptable. a lot of us might not agree, but its arguable that they should split minutes. but the rest of the roster should not be this way. Tyreke should be playing 38mpg, Cousins should be playing 38-40mpg if he doesnt have foul trouble, yet Coach is only playing Cousins 32mpg even when hes not in foul trouble.....

So the number of minutes is of primary importance, regardless of the night's chemistry, etc? Whatever...

 

[Padrino]

I'm beginning to see (or maybe hallucinate?) some kind of possible method in Smart's madness. I heard what he said yesterday after the game. He's building a concept of TEAM, and that means getting everyone to buy into it. How do you do that? You try all possible combinations and you see what works best.

With our young team, we don't have all the answers. Our team balance isn't quite right yet, but it's starting to head in the right direction IMHO. By not tightening the rotation to 8 or 9 players, Smart is building a team concept. You may not agree with the idea, but to me it's just another indication of how badly things had deteriorated under our revolving door coaching strategy.

I have hope. And I'll be honest - I haven't been able to say that in quite a long while.

i still have a hard time with it, because it reminds me of the way my dad used to coach my basketball teams... when i played in elementary school. pop's mantra was "everybody gets a turn," and yes, that's important to the fragile egos of children (and important still to the fragile egos of professional athletes), but, ultimately, consistency is what breeds success in the nba, particularly as it relates to the concept of TEAM chemistry; as head coach, you have to man up and tell the players what's what. in the next few weeks, smart will need to settle on a true rotation. right now, we may be casually referring to the madness in smart's "rotations," but that's not what they are. a rotation is circular, consistent, and dependable...

the kings have won two home games against an ailing warriors squad and a futile pistons squad. its nice to put two in the win column. its nicer still to have a better record than the lakers (i get so much pleasure out of seeing them in the basement of the western conference, however brief their time in last place may be). but if the kings want to win consistently, they need to play consistently, and the best way to encourage consistency as a coach is to cement a rotation. every guy knows his role. every guy knows when his name's getting called. if it doesn't work, you try something else, but you don't flip the script every single game, independent of the matchups (its aggravating how rarely the kings exploit their advantages against certain opponents). friday's game is a big test. the spurs got throttled by the clippers in LA last night. they're gonna be looking for redemption against an erratic kings team. sacramento better bring that defensive intensity...

 

[Section 101]

well look at that. it shows players sitting on the bench for far too long at a time. we should compare it to other NBA teams and notice how they dont bench their starters for that long

the only persons rotation that looks remotely correct is Cousins, but he should still be getting closer to 40MPG if hes not in foul trouble. and some of those are just ridiculous, especially IT's

No he should not be getting 40 mins a game. 35-36 max average. It's a long season, you don't get into the 40mpg until the playoffs.

 

[Bricklayer]

No he should not be getting 40 mins a game. 35-36 max average. It's a long season, you don't get into the 40mpg until the playoffs.

Since he's young and there ARE no playoffs for us without a huge season for him, I think you have to play him every minute he can stay on the floor and play productively. All of the great centers have routinely averaged 37-40mpg in their primes. And to a certain degree we know that Cousins will help us out by getting in sporadic foul trouble, so its going to work out to 35 max anyway. But if he can go longer, he should be going longer. Every win counts for us if we want to make any kind fo run at a #8 spot. No point in resting him if we lose a game. Nothing to save him for if we don't even make it in.

Just for illustration:

between 1987-88 and 1996-97 Ewing averaged: 36.2, 38.6, 38.3, 38.4, 37.1, 37.6, 37.0, 36.6, 37.0 min
between 1985-86 and 1996-97 Hakeem averaged: 36.3, 36.8, 35.8, 36.9, 38.1, 36.8, 37.7, 39.5, 41.0, 39.6, 38.8, 36.6 min

etc. with the other major guys without health problems.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

So the number of minutes is of primary importance, regardless of the night's chemistry, etc? Whatever...

ya you dont win without your best guys on the floor. i understand rolling with the hot hand to a certain extent, but Smart does it excessively. the rotations and lineups should not be varying this much every single game. maybe it looks good to leave a lineup on the court for a few extra minutes, but this kind of stuff usually will come back to kill ur team. just look at the last 2 wins. both should have been 10+ point wins, yet they came down to a 2 point win. you need a routine and a consistent rotation that you stick to for the most part every game. do you see LeBron on the bench for a whole quarter just because Battier comes in and plays good for a few minutes? what about Durant, i dont see him sitting on the bench for long periods of times when the bench plays well.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

Smarts whole theory of "you gotta be ready because you might play 2 minutes tonight and you might play 25" is not the way winning basketball is coached. players need to know their roles and know what to expect on a given night. just like IT played great last night but he was benched for half the game? thats not how it should be for a starting PG in the NBA

 

[allrightythen]

I just think Smart is getting the best players on the court and it just happens to be mostly guards. Given the lack of quality at the SF position Smart has turned to playing 3 guard lineups. I doubt he prefers doing it that way, but given how Garcia and Outlaw have played so far this season I can't really blame him. I bet it continues until he finds some help at the 3 that he can count on. It looks a little crazy because he's been giving guys opportunities hoping someone proves they can contribute but so far the guards and bigs (and JJ on defense) are the only ones showing up.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

No he should not be getting 40 mins a game. 35-36 max average. It's a long season, you don't get into the 40mpg until the playoffs.

hate to break it to you but were not getting anywhere near the Playoffs unless we ride the shoulders of DeMarcus Cousins, just like Bricklayer said, let him play as long as he can stay on the floor. we need him out there

 

[tyreeeke]

This team doesn't have championship talent and it remains to be seen if it has anywhere near playoff talent. Therefore, there is no reason to not test the waters and try different rotations until maybe, just maybe, the team can overcome their defficiences and actually compete on a nightly basis. There is no need to go with a steady group of guys when you're not competing for high stakes, especially when you have to see what your roster is made of and who exactly are the best players.

 

[Bricklayer]

I just think Smart is getting the best players on the court and it just happens to be mostly guards. Given the lack of quality at the SF position Smart has turned to playing 3 guard lineups. I doubt he prefers doing it that way, but given how Garcia and Outlaw have played so far this season I can't really blame him. I bet it continues until he finds some help at the 3 that he can count on. It looks a little crazy because he's been giving guys opportunities hoping someone proves they can contribute but so far the guards and bigs (and JJ on defense) are the only ones showing up.

What will be interesting will be when Salmons returns. In theory that shoudl give us our backup SF, even if he is half guard. In turn that would not only squeeze out Jimmer, but maybe MT as well if taken too far. And its not as if JJ can be bumped up to PF with all of JT/Hayes, TRob there. So...too many bodies.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

What will be interesting will be when Salmons returns. In theory that shoudl give us our backup SF, even if he is half guard. In turn that would not only squeeze out Jimmer, but maybe MT as well if taken too far. And its not as if JJ can be bumped up to PF with all of JT/Hayes, TRob there. So...too many bodies.

ya hopefully that doesnt mean Smart isnt out there playing 12 people per night. some players dont get see the court, thats just how the NBA works. look at most NBA teams, they have decent players (better than Garcia,Outlaw,Jimmer) that never play barring an injury

 

[Section 101]

Since he's young and there ARE no playoffs for us without a huge season for him, I think you have to play him every minute he can stay on the floor and play productively. All of the great centers have routinely averaged 37-40mpg in their primes. And to a certain degree we know that Cousins will help us out by getting in sporadic foul trouble, so its going to work out to 35 max anyway. But if he can go longer, he should be going longer. Every win counts for us if we want to make any kind fo run at a #8 spot. No point in resting him if we lose a game. Nothing to save him for if we don't even make it in.

Just for illustration:

between 1987-88 and 1996-97 Ewing averaged: 36.2, 38.6, 38.3, 38.4, 37.1, 37.6, 37.0, 36.6, 37.0 min
between 1985-86 and 1996-97 Hakeem averaged: 36.3, 36.8, 35.8, 36.9, 38.1, 36.8, 37.7, 39.5, 41.0, 39.6, 38.8, 36.6 min

etc. with the other major guys without health problems.

Different era. Can't compare to today.

Only 2 centers today are over 36 mins, Noah at 39 and Marc Gasol at 37.3.

Howard is right at 36.
DMC is 9th.

Last year 2 centers over 36.

Howard 38.3
M. Gasol 36.5

10-11 Again 2 centers, Howard and Bosh.

You can go look going back farther, but there are not many averaging over 36.

 

[Section 101]

hate to break it to you but were not getting anywhere near the Playoffs unless we ride the shoulders of DeMarcus Cousins, just like Bricklayer said, let him play as long as he can stay on the floor. we need him out there

And we go nowhere if he breaks down and gets injured.

 

[allrightythen]

What will be interesting will be when Salmons returns. In theory that shoudl give us our backup SF, even if he is half guard. In turn that would not only squeeze out Jimmer, but maybe MT as well if taken too far. And its not as if JJ can be bumped up to PF with all of JT/Hayes, TRob there. So...too many bodies.

Very true and funny as I looked up James Johnson's measurements last because I had the PF thought while watching the game. It would be frustrating to see Jimmer and TRob ride the bench and kill what value they may have. I really hope Thornton's minutes are not meaningfully affected. Despite his flaws he belongs on the court.

 

[rainmaker]

And we go nowhere if he breaks down and gets injured.

I'd argue sitting players for 25+ mins real time, including timeouts, is a far greater risk for injury, knowing what I know about how the human body works.

What's a greater risk for injury? Getting warmed up and running three miles, or running a mile, sitting down for 25 mins, immediately running another mile, sitting down for 20 mins, then running another mile?

There's plenty of science which backs that up. Muscles tighten and get cold. Lose flexibility. Greatly increase chance of injury.

 

[Section 101]

I'd argue sitting players for 25+ mins real time, including timeouts, is a far greater risk for injury, knowing what I know about how the human body works.

What's a greater risk for injury? Getting warmed up and running three miles, or running a mile, sitting down for 25 mins, immediately running another mile, sitting down for 20 mins, then running another mile?

There's plenty of science which backs that up.

I think Sloan and Stockton disproved it for basketball.

 

[rainmaker]

I think Sloan and Stockton disproved it for basketball.

Uh, how so? How does one coach and one player disprove science?

 

[Section 101]

Uh, how so? How does one coach and one player disprove science?

Because he was maximizing his rest and he never missed a game?

I think over playing someone not only has a greater risk for injury, but a more serious injury as well. Where someone coming off the bench cold is more likely to pull a muscle.

And your comparing apples and oranges to NBA and running. Two different types of conditioning. Runners aren't constantly stopping and starting, taking breaks etc. NBA players are used to it. I'm sure if NBA players were asked to run a marathon without any training they would have some problems too.

 

[rainmaker]

Because he was maximizing his rest and he never missed a game?

I think over playing someone not only has a greater risk for injury, but a more serious injury as well. Where someone coming off the bench cold is more likely to pull a muscle.

And your comparing apples and oranges to NBA and running. Two different types of conditioning. Runners aren't constantly stopping and starting, taking breaks etc. NBA players are used to it. I'm sure if NBA players were asked to run a marathon without any training they would have some problems too.

That doesn't touch the actual rotations. Stockton was given more breathers as he got older. Sub out earlier, then return, sub out, then return. Sloan didn't just sit him for 25+ mins regularly.

And actually, with the way the body works, it's not apples and oranges. How much do you know about how sprinters train? Forget marathoners. You think sprinters during their workouts, do ten sprints, sit and tighten up for 30 mins, run ten more, and repeat? This rule applies for just about any sport. You tighten up.

 

[Kingster]

i think splitting minutes with IT/Brooks is the only one thats acceptable. a lot of us might not agree, but its arguable that they should split minutes. but the rest of the roster should not be this way. Tyreke should be playing 38mpg, Cousins should be playing 38-40mpg if he doesnt have foul trouble, yet Coach is only playing Cousins 32mpg even when hes not in foul trouble.....

So Thornton gets 10 minutes under that scenario, right? Unless you want Tyreke back at the 3.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

you have to have a little bit of Tyreke at the 3 or at the 1 (which i would prefer over him playing SF) to get thornton 30 minutes. its one of the only smart things the coach has actually been doing

 

[Section 101]

That doesn't touch the actual rotations. Stockton was given more breathers as he got older. Sub out earlier, then return, sub out, then return. Sloan didn't just sit him for 25+ mins regularly.

And actually, with the way the body works, it's not apples and oranges. How much do you know about how sprinters train? Forget marathoners. You think sprinters during their workouts, do ten sprints, sit and tighten up for 30 mins, run ten more, and repeat? This rule applies for just about any sport. You tighten up.

Yes he did sit out for 25 mins. Pulled with like 4 mins left in the quarter then came back with like 6 mins left in the half. That was 10 mins of game time, 4 timeouts and over 25 mins total.

Yes and sprinters train different than the NBA. NBA players are used to going in and out. Now if your talking about putting someone in that has been on the bench for the last minute of a half then ya they will be cold since warm ups. But someone who routinely plays then sits is used to it.