We need to go younger, not too young but get guys between the ages of 25-28 that can mature and grow with the young guys we already have. We already have our starting SG in Martin and we have our backup PG and backup C or PF in Price and Williams respectively. Both I think are good fits not as starters but as backups because they each bring that energy off the bench like we used to have with Jon Barry and Bobby Jackson. I think it would be a good idea if at the right price to keep around Corliss, but my guess is he will want another shot at a ring and want to go to a contender. Also keep around Garcia and give the kid at least one more year to see where or if he fits in with this group.
The Kings next year...
- Thread starter BRad1055
- Start date
Sac.Kings
All-Star
Kings have a lot to do to be ready to contend for anything next year besides the lottery. pieces have to be let go and pieces have to come in. a solid big man with good defense should be first on the list. if i see another 6-9 forward brought in...well i wont be pleased. A new coach wouldnt be a bad idea either.
HndsmCelt
Hall of Famer
Considering the Kings did EVERYTHING WRONG THIS SEASON in order to prepare for next season, I would not get my hopes up too high for NEXT season. Baring some really good luck in the lotto, some brilliant trades and a some kind of mirical snag in the FA market, (remember the Kings are STILL at or near cap unless they let Bibby walk) this team is positioned almost exactly bass akwards from how a team ready for a rebuild wants to be set up. The team is still sallery heavy, some of the bigest contracts are nonexpiring hard to move paper for the likes of Kenny, and Brad. So the chances of a major FA aquisition are near zero. The team is has too many wins to likely nab a real impact rookie, but you never know on this one. That leaves trades... The BIG question is can GP pull another rabit ou of his hat and some how trade for a Major force down low? Unless he pulls this off next year will likely look a lot like this year.
I am no wiz kid but it seems to me that the decision needs to be made NOW by the office if they think they can bring in a major big, if the answer is no (and it probably is) they OUGHT to do this year what they faild to do last year. Trade away as many of their vet contracts for expiring paper as they can. Sign and trade Bibby for either expiring paper or preferably in combination with other players for the big we need. Bring in a noting to loose coach who will play young players and spend the season developing as much of the young tallent they have for 09-10. Live with a really bad season where young players gain experience, develop the team can position it's self to get a top 3 pick, AND have a nice stack of cash to land a top FA as well.
Bottom line is that as much as I enjoy wating Ronnie Price and Justin Williams get out there and hustle theses are not the guys you build a team arround. Mike Bibby and Brad Miller have PROVEN they are not guys you can build a good team arround, so that means all bets are off, no one is untradeable and the smart move is to CREATE ground zero.
I said it over and over, I would not mind watching the Kings struggle IF there is a reason for it, but just watching a bloated roster suck is becoming unbareaable.
I am no wiz kid but it seems to me that the decision needs to be made NOW by the office if they think they can bring in a major big, if the answer is no (and it probably is) they OUGHT to do this year what they faild to do last year. Trade away as many of their vet contracts for expiring paper as they can. Sign and trade Bibby for either expiring paper or preferably in combination with other players for the big we need. Bring in a noting to loose coach who will play young players and spend the season developing as much of the young tallent they have for 09-10. Live with a really bad season where young players gain experience, develop the team can position it's self to get a top 3 pick, AND have a nice stack of cash to land a top FA as well.
Bottom line is that as much as I enjoy wating Ronnie Price and Justin Williams get out there and hustle theses are not the guys you build a team arround. Mike Bibby and Brad Miller have PROVEN they are not guys you can build a good team arround, so that means all bets are off, no one is untradeable and the smart move is to CREATE ground zero.
I said it over and over, I would not mind watching the Kings struggle IF there is a reason for it, but just watching a bloated roster suck is becoming unbareaable.
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Brad and Bibby were great players to have on a team where the focus was ball movement and selfless team play. Teams couldn't guard the distributor, because who was he? Mike? Vlade? Brad? Doug? Chris? Same for the scorer: Chris? Peja? Mike? Bobby? Other?
Then Chris got gimpy, and the powers that be decided that we needed to cut payroll. A bunch of trades were made, and our roster stopped being designed around the old concept. Guys like Cuttino Mobley were picked not for fitting into the scheme so much as for being skilled basketball players of one sort or another. After a few such trades, we had a randomized roster. Compared to players like Doug and Vlade, a Cuttino or a Skinner or a KT or a RonRon are black holes. On some teams, they could be much better than they are here, but with them the Kings' gears stopped meshing well.
Then you get rid of Adelman, and the last vestige of the old team vision is gone. Instead you get an unskilled coach who wants to turn us into Ewing's Knicks when rule changes are making defense harder, and less than a third of our roster are good at playing defense. Because this process, spread over a few years, has made underperformance an increasingly prominent trait of the team, we can no longer expect to get much for big contract guys like Bibby or Miller should we want to trade them. Totally blowing up the team is no longer an option, unless we are willing to accept trades for some pretty horrible players, with the intention of tanking for 2 or 3 years. So far, it doesn't seem like management is willing to pay that price for a rebuild.
So now we're messed up no matter what we try to do. In an uptempo, passing game, Ron, KT and Corliss are iffy at best, and in a slowdown, defensive game, Mike, Brad and Kevin are liabilities. And Muss can't coach either one well.
We can try to become the Suns, or we can try to become the Spurs, but we cannot become the Suns on offense and the Spurs on defense, it just doesn't work that way. We are going to have to pick the direction we're going in, and be REALLY SURE about it. Then we will know what our personnel priorities are, and what sort of coach we need to replace Muss with. Until we have that vision and follow it, we're just going to suck.
We also have to decide whether we're willing to, say, try to unload KT and Ron, and revert to our old style, which means being a decent (but not great) team for the forseeable future, or whether we have the cojones to trade off every vet (except maybe Corliss) for lousy guys on short contracts, and totally rebuild around youth. If we do that, we'll have a couple of wretched years, but could rise to greatness again by about 2010-11. I'd be up for that, but it would take nerves of steel and unshakable resolve, and that doesn't seem to be the Maloof/Petrie way.
Whatever we do, anything which is not more directionless cost-cutting will be an improvement.
Then Chris got gimpy, and the powers that be decided that we needed to cut payroll. A bunch of trades were made, and our roster stopped being designed around the old concept. Guys like Cuttino Mobley were picked not for fitting into the scheme so much as for being skilled basketball players of one sort or another. After a few such trades, we had a randomized roster. Compared to players like Doug and Vlade, a Cuttino or a Skinner or a KT or a RonRon are black holes. On some teams, they could be much better than they are here, but with them the Kings' gears stopped meshing well.
Then you get rid of Adelman, and the last vestige of the old team vision is gone. Instead you get an unskilled coach who wants to turn us into Ewing's Knicks when rule changes are making defense harder, and less than a third of our roster are good at playing defense. Because this process, spread over a few years, has made underperformance an increasingly prominent trait of the team, we can no longer expect to get much for big contract guys like Bibby or Miller should we want to trade them. Totally blowing up the team is no longer an option, unless we are willing to accept trades for some pretty horrible players, with the intention of tanking for 2 or 3 years. So far, it doesn't seem like management is willing to pay that price for a rebuild.
So now we're messed up no matter what we try to do. In an uptempo, passing game, Ron, KT and Corliss are iffy at best, and in a slowdown, defensive game, Mike, Brad and Kevin are liabilities. And Muss can't coach either one well.
We can try to become the Suns, or we can try to become the Spurs, but we cannot become the Suns on offense and the Spurs on defense, it just doesn't work that way. We are going to have to pick the direction we're going in, and be REALLY SURE about it. Then we will know what our personnel priorities are, and what sort of coach we need to replace Muss with. Until we have that vision and follow it, we're just going to suck.
We also have to decide whether we're willing to, say, try to unload KT and Ron, and revert to our old style, which means being a decent (but not great) team for the forseeable future, or whether we have the cojones to trade off every vet (except maybe Corliss) for lousy guys on short contracts, and totally rebuild around youth. If we do that, we'll have a couple of wretched years, but could rise to greatness again by about 2010-11. I'd be up for that, but it would take nerves of steel and unshakable resolve, and that doesn't seem to be the Maloof/Petrie way.
Whatever we do, anything which is not more directionless cost-cutting will be an improvement.
You know, that says an awful lot in one paragraph and I agree wholeheartedly. Nice post.
kennadog
Dog On It!
Good post. I'm not sure that among this team's many problems is the fact that there may not be a "Maloof/Petrie" way. I just can't help feeling sometimes that there's a Petrie way.......except for the times the Maloofs want to play at being GM.
Thanks. Being a fan means being passionate, but being passionate means letting your feelings color your view. Most of us know quite a bit about this team, and when we let our knowledge rather than our passions rule the discussion, I think there's a whole lot that we can agree upon.
Having said that, I'll now go back to being frustrated.
Having said that, I'll now go back to being frustrated.
Yeah... we always look at the symptoms, and see a team which is depressed and suffering from a split personality as a roster problem, when really it's probably an accurate manifestation of what's going on with the management. The cure isn't on the floor, the cure is upstairs.
kingsfan101
Starter
Considering the Kings did EVERYTHING WRONG THIS SEASON in order to prepare for next season, I would not get my hopes up too high for NEXT season. Baring some really good luck in the lotto, some brilliant trades and a some kind of mirical snag in the FA market, (remember the Kings are STILL at or near cap unless they let Bibby walk) this team is positioned almost exactly bass akwards from how a team ready for a rebuild wants to be set up. The team is still sallery heavy, some of the bigest contracts are nonexpiring hard to move paper for the likes of Kenny, and Brad. So the chances of a major FA aquisition are near zero. The team is has too many wins to likely nab a real impact rookie, but you never know on this one. That leaves trades... The BIG question is can GP pull another rabit ou of his hat and some how trade for a Major force down low? Unless he pulls this off next year will likely look a lot like this year.
I am no wiz kid but it seems to me that the decision needs to be made NOW by the office if they think they can bring in a major big, if the answer is no (and it probably is) they OUGHT to do this year what they faild to do last year. Trade away as many of their vet contracts for expiring paper as they can. Sign and trade Bibby for either expiring paper or preferably in combination with other players for the big we need. Bring in a noting to loose coach who will play young players and spend the season developing as much of the young tallent they have for 09-10. Live with a really bad season where young players gain experience, develop the team can position it's self to get a top 3 pick, AND have a nice stack of cash to land a top FA as well.
Bottom line is that as much as I enjoy wating Ronnie Price and Justin Williams get out there and hustle theses are not the guys you build a team arround. Mike Bibby and Brad Miller have PROVEN they are not guys you can build a good team arround, so that means all bets are off, no one is untradeable and the smart move is to CREATE ground zero.
Second that. In fact, I hope we don't use our MLE this year and sign a FA (unless we need to get a PG to replace Bibby).
Our salary stands at over 54M next year (for only 9 players), and 56.5M in 2008 (for only 8 players). Once we sign the draft picks for the next two years, and give an extension to Kevin that he has earned, we shall be in striking distance of the LT, if not over it. More importantly, it shall impact the cap space in 2009.
The new FA shall also take minutes away from the kids, some of whom have made a case for more time. It shall also signal that the organization is ready for a rebuild, and is not looking for short term solutions.
Finally, regarding trades, I think Miller and KT are untradable. With one of the best drafts in recent memory loaded with bigs coming up, why would anyone want an undersized PF or an unathletic center with huge contracts. Bibby, Reef and Artest may have very limited markets, but we shall need to be extremely lucky to get expiring/short term contracts for them.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Its only a "disaster" in the short term. You add the vets after the young core is in place.
Do you have an undisclosed terminal illness or some such? Your vision and diagnoses never seem to reach more than a few months ahead of time. And iit takes years and years to build a title team.
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kupman
Starter
Considering the Kings did EVERYTHING WRONG THIS SEASON in order to prepare for next season, I would not get my hopes up too high for NEXT season. Baring some really good luck in the lotto, some brilliant trades and a some kind of mirical snag in the FA market, (remember the Kings are STILL at or near cap unless they let Bibby walk) this team is positioned almost exactly bass akwards from how a team ready for a rebuild wants to be set up. The team is still sallery heavy, some of the bigest contracts are nonexpiring hard to move paper for the likes of Kenny, and Brad. So the chances of a major FA aquisition are near zero. The team is has too many wins to likely nab a real impact rookie, but you never know on this one. That leaves trades... The BIG question is can GP pull another rabit ou of his hat and some how trade for a Major force down low? Unless he pulls this off next year will likely look a lot like this year.
I am no wiz kid but it seems to me that the decision needs to be made NOW by the office if they think they can bring in a major big, if the answer is no (and it probably is) they OUGHT to do this year what they faild to do last year. Trade away as many of their vet contracts for expiring paper as they can. Sign and trade Bibby for either expiring paper or preferably in combination with other players for the big we need. Bring in a noting to loose coach who will play young players and spend the season developing as much of the young tallent they have for 09-10. Live with a really bad season where young players gain experience, develop the team can position it's self to get a top 3 pick, AND have a nice stack of cash to land a top FA as well.
Bottom line is that as much as I enjoy wating Ronnie Price and Justin Williams get out there and hustle theses are not the guys you build a team arround. Mike Bibby and Brad Miller have PROVEN they are not guys you can build a good team arround, so that means all bets are off, no one is untradeable and the smart move is to CREATE ground zero.
I see an exact opposite point of view. It stems from my belief that in the NBA when things are going poorly, do not get too discouraged because things are probably not as bad as they seem. Just as when things are going well in the NBA, do not get too excited because things are probably not as good as they seem.
Therefore, we may not need drastic measures to turn this team into a winner. I mean, after all they were winners last year with a very similar team. A few small changes this year may yield big benefits. Furthermore, 'blowing up a team' is very hard to do with guaranteed contracts and what not.
For example (and this is just an example), if we were to land Hibbert we could start him at the 5 and put Miller at the 4. We fire Muss and get a new coaching staff that instructs Miller to stay out of the paint when on offense and just hit the 17 footer or make a nice pass (and never, ever put the ball on the floor). We have Bibby, Martin, and Artest rounding out the rest of the starters. With the added size and new potential with a new coaching staff, it just might work. It would be interesting anyway (feel free to start ripping the idea now)
The example is just an example. The main point being that 1-3 off-season key moves (new coach, new rookie and maybe an Artest trade) could make a really big difference.
kupman
Starter
I think that this is just false.
The Miami Heat won a championship with DWade and Shaq as anchors. It only took two years to bring them together. The Boston Celtics dynasty of the 80s was put together in about 2 years. Bringing a team together that struggles in the immediate future with the idea that they will be a good team in 5-7 years (or whatever 'years and years' is) is a big mistake IMHO.
kingsfan101
Starter
Don't know anything about the 80s Celts, but the above is not correct. It took years of sucking and planning to get the pieces that got Shaq. Of course, Odom and Grant were not signed, and Butler was not drafted with the idea that Shaq shall suddenly become available. That was just an added piece of luck. However, having high draft picks + FA money to ultimately land a superstar was done over time.
kupman
Starter
yeah.....so their really bad seasons of 2001 - 2003 were all part of the master plan to win the title in '06. I don' believe it...not for a second.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
They were nonetheless necessary years totehm wining it all, master plan or no.
They got bad, reward = Caron Butler. Were bad again, reward = Dwayne Wade, and the cap room to sign Lamar Odom. Had the young talent to start making a move, and then parlayed that young talent into Shaq for Yr 3. Yr 4 = title. and that was a very quick turn aorund, entirely predicated on getting VERy high draft picks and drafting a likely HOFer. 4 years as a "short" window, requiring a little luck to even make it that quick. Our own turnaround was 4th yr = first serious title push. It was Yr 3 or 4 for Shaq. Later for Stockton and Malone, about 4th year for Jordan and Pippen. There are no one year title fixes for a crappy team. It takes years of development, playoff disappointment, little additions, and developing chemistry.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Petrie has his eyes set on 2008. Just keep watching.
HndsmCelt
Hall of Famer
I think one of the areas where we differ is in what we each consider "working" or a "good team"
Last years team was hardly a contender, they were simply a collection of mismatched tallents that were well coached and motivated enough to be canon fodder for the first round of the paly offs. This years team is roughly the same level of tallent being poorly coached. A couple quick fixes will at best make us cannon fodder again and that is WORSE in the long run than a leveled team of kids and expiring contracts playing hard but not wining games.
You are right taht taking this roster and gutting it is NOT easy, it means letting tallent go and getting nothing back but ending paper and old men, but Kiki Vanderwegie did exactly that with Denver and positioned it in 2 seasons to land a top pick in Mello and sign top FA's the same year. I might question his FA's quality bu he had the right idea and now Denver is young, and stacked.
I can appreciate your position that things are maybe not that bad, but I have to disagree that this collection of players can make for a core to become a good team. In my book a good team is a team going past round one in the play offs, a very good team round two and a great team sees the finals. To go past round one the Kings need more than a single pick in lotto and a FA.
You build a really good team ARROUND a top player (we hand none) who can dominate games, not just racking up points but forcing other teams to adjust to them. With out that go to guy (Dirk, Kobe, Wade etc.) any trades, coaching changes or FA signings really only ammount to rearanging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Yeah, with another coup in the draft this year, if he can work out some sort of package where he unloads Zach Randolph and gets KG, he might be able to talk Adelman into leading the Blazers into a new era.
Just kidding... sort of.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Lets just see how much money Petrie can get off the books this summer for '08. This free agent class this year sucks! Take a look at who will be available in '08!!!
kennadog
Dog On It!
Please don't kid like that. I have this fear of GP leaving and the Maloofs hiring a new GM who just "blows them away" at the interview. Serious nightmare stuff.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
It all comes down to the cojones. We're going to find out pretty soon if they have them or they don't.
I agree with you. I don't buy into the loom and gloom. Much of our problems are related to the very poor player/coach relationship and the players buying into what BS Muss is trying to make them eat. Dumping RA was not wise, especially with the large talent bleed that was going on for the past few years. We needed a stable force and a coach the players believed in, with Muss we have total anarchy and players like Artest and Bibby doing whatever they want.
We should have a much better record then we do, we underachieved very badly this season. I'd start with a new coach, one that can be respected and that the players will be accountable to if they don't listen. Then we really need to straighten out 4/5, that is our biggest black hole. Miller is a good big, but cannot be expected to play good D, that is something that has to come from the PF and Williams looks to do this. I wouldn't hang the franchise on him, but he has some nice skills and energy/athletism. Looks at how we dig ourselves out of the hole the starting group gets us in with:
Price
KMart/Cisco
Artest
Williams
SAR
That should be our starting lineup for the rest of the year.
Hopefully we nab a good big this year in the draft, I'd do what we can to try to move up and get a 3-5 pick if possible. Then we need a guy 6' 10'+, not another 6' 7"-6' 9" tweener. Miller has had some bad foot problems and he is definately at a decline in his career, we are pretty much stuck with him. He is a good passer and sets some good screens, has a decent long range shot, and can play some limited D when needed in short stretches. He would benefit greatly from a good PF who does the things he doesn't like Justin Williams is showing. SAR can also play 4/5 and back these 2 up as well. It is imperative that we get a big in the draft, it's such a strong year for one and that is out most pressing need. I'd be fine with Price starting at PG for us next year if it meant getting more depth at 4/5 and/or some decent backups off the bench. SAR and Miller are both NBA vets that should have a limited role going forward, but could back up the kids as in Williams and hopefully a good big in this year's draft. SAR could be moved due to his smaller contract and lower $, hopefully to the Bulls for 1-2 or their youngsters. I'd love for Ben Gordon to come here, we could really use a guy like that.
We have to do everything we can this offseason to move Bibby and Thomas. More then anything these guys have to go. Bibby for his huge contract and no defense and Thomas for his big contract, bad attitude, needing to start, and small stature.
Williams brings the hustle which was Thomas's only saving grace and the kid is taller, more athleic, much more hungry, and crazy cheap
as a undrafted kid trying to make a living in the NBA.
Bibby for as much as he can score, is a huge liability on Defense and a red carpet to the rim after the PG beats him which they do with ease...then it's onto our hoop that isn't guarded well at all. With Williams that is changing, but still we need to stop the problem at the source and that is our starting PG Bibby. Price plays great D and should be part of our long term plans along with Cisco and Williams to represent the young kids who show the most promise at providing the D we covet, Artest and to a smaller degree Salmons prepresenting the slightly older NBA vets that make a living at providing good D and to further train the youngins. I see Cisco as our young Christie!
Never going to happen. The vets want the career starts and games played numbers to be elevated, so Price, barring injury, is never going to start for Mike. I do think the trend of Mike, for example, starting but playing less than 30 minutes a game will continue.
Absolutely, on all counts.
Rebuilding a team that you didn't plan to rebuild isn't easy. And it isn't quick. We probably won't win more than 30 games next season, and the year after that we'll probably be in the Lottery again. But if upper management is patient and makes good personnel decisions, and if the right coach is with the team as we develop young talent, we have a shot at being right in the thick of things by Year Four (this being Year One).
The Kings next year shouldn't be the focus. All we can do next year is move salary to get as far under the cap as possible. It's the next two years that will make the difference between us being the Golden State Warriors or the Chicago Bulls. And even the Bulls took longer than they should have to get good again. Hopefully we can rebuild in half the time they did.
The Bulls sure did do some stupid moves to short circuit their climb back up after the Jordan years. Most noteably trading away Elton Brand and maybe also Currie, they traded Artest which probably helped them in the long run though!
I like how GS is buiding with Petrius and some of the other youngins. I hope we can build quickly, but it's not going to be overnight that's for sure!
Circa_1985_Fan
All-Star
Agreed. And as we all can see, this plan has worked great for teams like Atlanta, Boston, and up until last season, the Clippers. I do, however, think that a good example of how to do this would be what Charlotte is doing, they have an incredible nucleus of young talent, with very few veterans to provide leadership. They have tons of money to play with, and should spend their money wisely this offseason...who knows, though...it is MJ building that team, and we all know how he runs things...errr...1st pick/Kwame Brown. Anyways, my point being...I doubt the Maloofs want to sit back and let youth take its course while losing games for 2-3 years or longer, so I would expect them to be spending some money this year and next to build another winner sooner than later.
edit: hopefully they took notes from Larry Allen and Jerry Sloan the last 2 years.
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Absolutely.The Bulls sure did do some stupid moves to short circuit their climb back up after the Jordan years. Most noteably trading away Elton Brand and maybe also Currie, they traded Artest which probably helped them in the long run though!
But they got it together and starting building a team. And now they're a very good team in contention in their conference. I was mostly referring to the moves they've made in the past three years. The first three years were a mess.
This is fallacious reasoning on your part. Charlotte is doing the same thing that Boston and Atlanta are doing; the difference is that the people running the Bobcats have a higher basketball IQ than the people running the Hawks and Celtics. And the Clippers don't belong in your comparison, since it is well-known that the Clippers continued to be bad for so long for the singular reason that Donald Sterling refused to pay anybody. It's not even a remotely a coincidence that, the year that Sterling finally opened up his wallet, the Clippers made the playoffs.
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