The inevitable "we're better without Fox" thread...split from game thread

#31
Because the issues you described apply just as much to Bogi and Buddy. I was saying it in jest but apparently we're in "Blow 'er up" mode tonight so I should have known better.
Nah. Just missed the sarcasm. And btw I agree. None of our guards other than CoJo are capable of guarding the other teams best guard.
 
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#32
Not at all.
But according to the DRtg numbers you just brought up as an indication of Fox being a bad defender (which I'm not arguing about because I largely agree with you there) they apparently are.
Right we both know DRtg has serious limitations but stats on the defensive side are lacking. Heck the used DRtg as a goal for Buddy so it must be the best we got.
 
#34
Why isn’t this thread locked already? We beat the Knicks by 20+ with Fox and lost to the crappy Knicks without him. Case closed
They also beat Houston, Dallas, and Denver without him. Lost to Phoenix and Charlotte with him.

It's not that simple. And I'm not one of the guys saying they're better without him but using individual games doesn't work.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#35
Why isn’t this thread locked already? We beat the Knicks by 20+ with Fox and lost to the crappy Knicks without him. Case closed
As I said in the title, this was "inevitable"...I just honestly didn't think it would happen so quickly. The game was barely over. If we close this one, it'll just pop up again somewhere else. This way, much like with the Luka thread, the damage can be contained. ;)
 

gunks

Hall of Famer
#36
For us to be great, Fox has to become a lock down defender. We have others that can shoot. We don’t need him to be Dame. We do need him to become Gary Payton. Unfortunately, tonight he gave up straight line drives over and over and Charlotte repeatedly put he and Bagley in pick and rolls where neither looked good.

We have shooters. What we don’t have other than CoJo is a lock down perimeter defender. CoJo routinely took the best opposing player on defense allowing everyone a step down in challenge.
While I love me some defense, I would actually prefer it if Fox focuses on the offensive end. His ability to drive and dish really makes it easy on our shooters. And once he starts hitting his own outside shots regularly, it's game over. We've seen Fox take over games when his shot is on... That's the future.

I totally agree that he needs to be less crap on defense though. He doesn't need to expend lock down energy the entire game, but he should at least be able to play smart/solid on that end and not get destroyed every night! He has the tools.
 
#38
I agree with the OP. It was weird how he kept forcing our open shooters to brick all those shots. And why was he helping Biyombo and Zeller look like superstars? Then when he demanded that Luke trot out those ridiculous lineups. Really surprising stuff.

Maybe we can swap him for Isiah Thomas before Fox’s value plummets any further.
 
#39
They also beat Houston, Dallas, and Denver without him. Lost to Phoenix and Charlotte with him.

It's not that simple. And I'm not one of the guys saying they're better without him but using individual games doesn't work.
Not any individual game the worst team in the nba at the time. Charlotte and Phoenix while not good teams, they are >0.400 teams. I just don’t see how anyone can say we are better without him with a straight face.
 
#42
If the thread is inevitable, why bother?

Numbers have been presented that seem to clearly suggest that the Kings might be better off without Fox. In my opinion, there's not enough data - yet - to prove anything conclusive. Numbers from last year don't take into account the differences in the team (personnel, system, coaching) so they're definitely comparable but not exactly. Fox played at the beginning of the year when the team, collectively, was having growing pains, and missed the recent games when the team was playing much better. That would skew his stats negatively, a problem that would presumably correct automatically as he played more games.

My bottom line is that it's always a valid topic around here as to what's our best team. Stats will be able to give us a clearer picture about Fox, but I think we need more stats before they can help us in any significant way.
 
#43
The supporting cast the Kings have for Bagley/Fox is good enough to be a 500. team or above it's up to them now to take us there now. Bogi/Hield/Bjelly/Holmes/Cojo/Barnes is a very solid suppoting cast imo if JJJ/Morant had that suppoting cast they would easily be a 500. + team.
 
#47
No, im not basing it after one game. I started thinking this after our miraculous turn around when he first got injured. I promise this isnt a gut reaction based off of this game and i am by no means saying Fox isn't good and going to be a potentially great player.What i am saying is that THIS team flows better without him, and more specifically with Bogdon as the primary ball handler. In my opinion we are going to have to make a choice between Bogdon and Fox going forward. I personally like the style of play that Bogdon provides us (more passing/ playmaking, better half court, better shooting) than Fox (more speed, more iso). Fox is the best player on this team without a doubt. I just think he needs a different team around him than what we have.
In what universe does Bogdan provide more playmaking and less iso?

There is no miraculous turnaround. Teams do this all the time. You see stretches where teams devoid of talent from injury play better for a time with their backs against the wall, where the team "flows" better as you call it. It takes a lot of effort, a lot of luck, and a lot of metaphorical lightning caught in a bottle. They played .500 ball for one-fifth of a season, whoop-de-doo.

It also never lasts, with everything catching up to them.

The most important thing is talent. Always has been, always will be. I may trash Bagley often, but it's gotta come from him and Fox, with a fair helping of Buddy, Barnes, and Bogi afterward.

As to the choice, it's Fox. Every second of every day, if it came down to that.

Sorry, I want no part of being a treadmill team built around complimentary pieces and role players that has no chance of being something more. Take this recent stretch: you've got one probably third option in over his head as the lead offensive player (Hield), a couple of complimentary, starter quality players (Bogi, Barnes) and a bunch of role-players forced to play above their paygrade (Bjelica, Cojo, Holmes). You think THAT can last the entire, 82 game season, let alone carry positive momentum into years to come?
 
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#48
I don't think Fox is necessarily a problem here. But I did say at the beginning of the season that we have no real superstar and we have at least 5 players who need to fill in the stats sheet in order to be productive and happy. That's a tough thing to do. We need to learn how to play with all these guys together or we need to trade one of them.
 
#50
"We are a better team without Fox" sniffs at the truth because without Fox there are more defined roles on the team with one less ball dominant player. I believe the Kings real problem is that they have too many guys, which seems counter intuitive for a team that hasn't accomplished anything, but they are at least one guy too deep. I think they need to make a trade to help alleviate the role confusion that this team exhibits.
 
#51
I don't think Fox is necessarily a problem here. But I did say at the beginning of the season that we have no real superstar and we have at least 5 players who need to fill in the stats sheet in order to be productive and happy. That's a tough thing to do. We need to learn how to play with all these guys together or we need to trade one of them.
totally agree
 
#53
Im gonna say it, as this team is constructed, were better without Fox. If we want to be the best we can with him we need to re construct the team more around his skills. Otherwise we need to think about a trade and get back a pretty sizeable haul while his value is high.
excellent troll two pages!

or

“All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as self-evident.”
 
#54
Pretty sure the only people who would prefer Bogi or Cojo over Fox are Kings fans. This fanbase has seen so much losing, that we now see mediocrity as success. Talented, multidimensional players seem to threaten some people's sense of stability and security.
 
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#56
Im gonna say it, as this team is constructed, were better without Fox. If we want to be the best we can with him we need to re construct the team more around his skills. Otherwise we need to think about a trade and get back a pretty sizeable haul while his value is high.
Lets do it! Wonder what we could get for him?
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#57
To these tired old eye's, Fox was the best player on the floor for us last night. When you consider he was shaking off some rust, he was nothing short of amazing. He could have easily had 14 assists if his teammates had been able to hit their shots. His decision making compared to ball pounder Joseph is the difference between night and day. To suggest we trade him because he's a detriment to the team, is one of the dumbest things ever posted on this forum.
 
#59
Fox is the Kings BEST Player, PERIOD!

You build around Fox and the Kings have been building around Fox.

This is his first game back and I expect him to regain his starting position very soon. And when he does, the Kings will be a lot better and will make a huge push for the playoffs. When Fox is on, he controls the game very well, that is something no other PG on the Kings can do. The Kings were starting to roll, before his ankle injury.

Give the Kings a few games to integrate Fox and Bagley back in and we should be in solid contention for the 7th and 8th seed of the playoffs. :)
 
#60
This thread is incredibly premature. In case people forget, he just came EARLY from a severe injury that usually take more than a month to recover. And you want to judge him base on his first game back?? That’s just stupid