The inevitable "we're better without Fox" thread...split from game thread

[Kings Faithful]

Im gonna say it, as this team is constructed, were better without Fox. If we want to be the best we can with him we need to re construct the team more around his skills. Otherwise we need to think about a trade and get back a pretty sizeable haul while his value is high.

 

[VF21]

Im gonna say it, as this team is constructed, were better without Fox. If we want to be the best we can with him we need to re construct the team more around his skills. Otherwise we need to think about a trade and get back a pretty sizeable haul while his value is high.

OMFG.

 

[SacTownKid]

Interesting subject. While I'm not sure Vlade is done tweaking the roster, I can't see on paper how this team isn't perfect for him. Shooting bigs, athletic bigs to pair in pick and roll, shooting wings, defensive wings, a long range sniper tag team partner in the back court. Time will tell but it looks like the answers start on the floor from this point on.

 

[Bruiser62906]

Someone should start the mavs are better without doncic thread on a mavs board while they're at it. Makes as much sense as this

 

[NewArena]

What???? After one game? He just missed almost 20 games.

Are you insane

 

[jcassio]

It take all kinds of people. But really, this? The overreaction is, well, just sad.

 

[Kangztillidie]

What???? After one game? He just missed almost 20 games.

Are you insane

Seems like it. This is absolutely absurd of a comment. Not you. The OP. Ridiculous

 

[Tetsujin]

Someone should start the mavs are better without doncic thread on a mavs board while they're at it. Makes as much sense as this

Well, I mean, they did beat the best team in the league without Luka so it's obvious he was just holding them back the entire time.

 

[Tetsujin]

Im gonna say it, as this team is constructed, were better without Fox. If we want to be the best we can with him we need to re construct the team more around his skills. Otherwise we need to think about a trade and get back a pretty sizeable haul while his value is high.

Trading the best young two-way point guard in the league for absolutely no good reason is how bad teams stay bad.

 

[The_Jamal]

Did he just see where he came back from a month and was far and away the best player for us on the court?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

 

[gunks]

Odd take...

 

[sactowndog]

Trading the best young two-way point guard in the league for absolutely no good reason is how bad teams stay bad.

Except he isn’t a 2 way player yet. His defensive rating before getting hurt was not good. He absolutely has the tools to be a great defender but he isn’t yet.

But by no means am I advocating trading Fox.

 

[Kings Faithful]

No, im not basing it after one game. I started thinking this after our miraculous turn around when he first got injured. I promise this isnt a gut reaction based off of this game and i am by no means saying Fox isn't good and going to be a potentially great player.What i am saying is that THIS team flows better without him, and more specifically with Bogdon as the primary ball handler. In my opinion we are going to have to make a choice between Bogdon and Fox going forward. I personally like the style of play that Bogdon provides us (more passing/ playmaking, better half court, better shooting) than Fox (more speed, more iso). Fox is the best player on this team without a doubt. I just think he needs a different team around him than what we have.

 

[sergmatt]

No way they're better without Fox. At his best he can lead a team on both ends of the floor. Of course he needs to do this more consistently but at some point he'll get there.

Bagley on the other hand I'm not so sure. Bagley has some serious deficiencies in his game on both ends that need to be fixed. As of yet he doesn't play winning basketball, just a guy that gets his points and rebounds and the team loses. Defensively he's terrible. Offensively he doesn't create anything for others, doesn't run the pick-n-roll well, doesn't really play within a well oiled passing offense. He's been compared to Amar'e Stoudemire but Amare was running the pick-n-roll to great effect right of the gate with Marbury as his point guard. Of course this could all change and he could become a guy that plays winning/team basketball where he's also a devastating finisher on offense but he's not even close to being there yet.

 

[sactowndog]

Did he just see where he came back from a month and was far and away the best player for us on the court?

If he was far and away the best player then his net rating would at least be among the best wouldn’t you think? Fox had a good offensive rating but the second worst defensive rating on the team. His rating was almost 20 points higher than CoJo. As a result his net rating was 6th best on the team.

 

[hrdboild]

The usual caveats apply here about trying to reintegrate a high usage player on the road after a long break. The timing is going to be off regardless when he's on the floor and then you have the domino effect of changing the rotation and upsetting the roles everyone has grown accustomed to. It's going to take a few games, maybe even a few weeks to sort those issues out.

The interesting thing to watch here though is the inevitable dissonance of a team playing at the slowest place in the league with one of the fastest players in the league running the point. Joerger tried it in Fox's rookie season and it didn't work so he switched it up and had the team force the tempo relentlessly last year. It's obvious that switching to a slower defense-focused game plan was our best shot to win without Fox and Bagley and the results speak for themselves. Can we go back to running now? Do we even want to? It's a coaching dilemma and that makes this discussion a little more involved than the usual knee jerk reactions. When you find something that works its hard to justify switching things up but you also don't want to commit to a style of play which minimizes the strengths of your best players and maximizes their weaknesses. One way or another something's got to give here.

 

[gunks]

Except he isn’t a 2 way player yet. His defensive rating before getting hurt was not good. He absolutely has the tools to be a great defender but he isn’t yet.

But by no means am I advocating trading Fox.

I actually agree with this. Fox is crazy overrated as a defender. He gets lit up all the time but people only remember his highlight blocks and steals.

In Fox's defense (heh), expecting him to run the offense, push the pace, put up enough shots to be a nightly threat for 20+ points, AND play lock down defense is asking for a lot. But with the new slower pace we're playing at this season, I wouldn't mind it if he focused a bit more on the defense. He can be a stud on that end.

I loved the impact on O tonight. If our guys were hitting shots like they normally do, Fox would probably have had around 15 assists.

 

[hrdboild]

No, im not basing it after one game. I started thinking this after our miraculous turn around when he first got injured. I promise this isnt a gut reaction based off of this game and i am by no means saying Fox isn't good and going to be a potentially great player.What i am saying is that THIS team flows better without him, and more specifically with Bogdon as the primary ball handler. In my opinion we are going to have to make a choice between Bogdon and Fox going forward. I personally like the style of play that Bogdon provides us (more passing/ playmaking, better half court, better shooting) than Fox (more speed, more iso). Fox is the best player on this team without a doubt. I just think he needs a different team around him than what we have.

Its a fair point. We transformed into a completely different team without Fox and its not obvious how he fits with this current style of play. We'll gladly endure some short term losses to get the best version of this team on the floor but Coach Walton has really got his work cut out for him.

 

[Kings Faithful]

Its a fair point. We transformed into a completely different team without Fox and its not obvious how he fits with this current style of play. We'll gladly endure some short term losses to get the best version of this team on the floor but Coach Walton has really got his work cut out for him.

Thats all im pointing out. I got attacked for what is an inconvenient truth that most people arent willing to consider, let alone accept. I love Fox, not a Fox hater. Just pointing out what the Eye test, the statistics, and the W/L column has shown us up to this point.

 

[sactowndog]

I actually agree with this. Fox is crazy overrated as a defender. He gets lit up all the time but people only remember his highlight blocks and steals.

In Fox's defense (heh), expecting him to run the offense, push the pace, put up enough shots to be a nightly threat for 20+ points, AND play lock down defense is asking for a lot. But with the new slower pace we're playing at this season, I wouldn't mind it if he focused a bit more on the defense. He can be a stud on that end.

I loved the impact on O tonight. If our guys were hitting shots like they normally do, Fox would probably have had around 15 assists.

For us to be great, Fox has to become a lock down defender. We have others that can shoot. We don’t need him to be Dame. We do need him to become Gary Payton. Unfortunately, tonight he gave up straight line drives over and over and Charlotte repeatedly put he and Bagley in pick and rolls where neither looked good.

We have shooters. What we don’t have other than CoJo is a lock down perimeter defender. CoJo routinely took the best opposing player on defense allowing everyone a step down in challenge.

 

[Tetsujin]

Except he isn’t a 2 way player yet. His defensive rating before getting hurt was not good. He absolutely has the tools to be a great defender but he isn’t yet.

But by no means am I advocating trading Fox.

Fair enough. The two-way label is more from a flashes of talent/potential angle than anything tangible, though I think his defensive rating this season was probably a bit inflated by the absolute crapfrest that was our first five games.

 

[Tetsujin]

Its a fair point. We transformed into a completely different team without Fox and its not obvious how he fits with this current style of play. We'll gladly endure some short term losses to get the best version of this team on the floor but Coach Walton has really got his work cut out for him.

To be fair, it's not like we were setting the world on fire record-wise with the grind-it-out style we were playing in which we routinely struggled to score 90 points a night and our entire offensive gameplan was essentially based on hoping Buddy or Bogi had a hot night from three point range.

 

[sactowndog]

Fair enough. The two-way label is more from a flashes of talent/potential angle than anything tangible, though I think his defensive rating this season was probably a bit inflated by the absolute crapfrest that was our first five games.

I might agree if his defensive rating wasn’t horrific last year also. Not to mention poor defense tonight. He gambles for steals, slow on rotations and can’t stay in front of the dribbler.

 

[Tetsujin]

I might agree if his defensive rating wasn’t horrific last year also. Not to mention poor defense tonight. He gambles for steals, slow on rotations and can’t stay in front of the dribbler.

The Bogi/Buddy thread is a couple of threads down.

 

[sactowndog]

The Bogi/Buddy thread is a couple of threads down.

What does Fox’s limitations have to do with the Buddy Bogi thread? Fox, for this season, has the worst defensive rating on the team. Fox and Bogi had essentially the same defensive rating last year.

 

[Tetsujin]

I might agree if his defensive rating wasn’t horrific last year also. Not to mention poor defense tonight. He gambles for steals, slow on rotations and can’t stay in front of the dribbler.

He was middle of the pack on our team last year at 111, which is right about where he is this year. CoJo coincidentally also has a DRtg of 111 for whatever it's worse (which would be the worst mark of his career)

 

[Tetsujin]

What does Fox’s limitations have to do with the Buddy Bogi thread? Fox, for this season, has the worst defensive rating on the team. Fox and Bogi had essentially the same defensive rating last year.

Because the issues you described apply just as much to Bogi and Buddy. I was saying it in jest but apparently we're in "Blow 'er up" mode tonight so I should have known better.

 

[sactowndog]

He was middle of the pack on our team last year at 111, which is right about where he is this year. CoJo coincidentally also has a DRtg of 111 for whatever it's worse (which would be the worst mark of his career)

Are you claiming Fox and CoJo are equivalent defenders?

 

[Tetsujin]

Are you claiming Fox and CoJo are equivalent defenders?

Not at all.
But according to the DRtg numbers you just brought up as an indication of Fox being a bad defender (which I'm not arguing about because I largely agree with you there) they apparently are.