King Baller
All-Star
Damn Lakers win it again.
Who can blame Lebron and AD?
Who can blame Lebron and AD?
The Finals
- Thread starter Mr. S£im Citrus
- Start date
whozit
Starter
For teaming up? Nah, even if it was with the stinking Lakers.
Might not like his public persona of an entitled POS, but can't deny he is one hell of a basketball player. Please note, I'm not calling him that cause I don't know him, but just his public image. And even that I don't know is accurate or if my perception is off. And I am talking about the old one.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
They got a bit lucky too. Timing is everything and this was a year where teams were making their first big moves and didn't have the time or possibilities to really create depth or develop much chemistry. Also, the real opponents in the west in the Clipps and Rockets two star combos are a little iffy in terms of fit so they need time. The Lakers had the depth, the star power, the experience. And on top of it they added even more depth during the year while other teams were still trying to find themselves. I was really hoping we'd see a Raptors title followed by a Heat title because I'd bet the next day you'd see an end to the rules that turn players launching shots from half court while looking like middle school children into stars. Hopefully the ratings alone start tilting this away from a contest to see who can put up the biggest stats and give us a more balanced chess battle instead of the game of checkers it's turned into.
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I continue to be amazed by Lebron and his career. We are witnessing a historical career, top 2 that has ever played the game and still at the age of (almost) 36 he delivers such high level performances. A good example of Lebrons greatnes is that players like Durant, Kawhi, Steph ect are incredible players but none of them even come close to the impact of having Lebron James in your team. Plus Lebron has been like that for so long now that the longevity of his career is just crazy.
I dont know if the hate he gets is just because he switched teams after Cleveland never managed to build a good team around him, for god sake his 2nd options were players like Mo Williams.
I dont really even care where the hate comes from because to me he is a joy to follow. His style of play is extremely great to watch. No foul drawing bullcrap like most of the stars today. When he drives to the basket he is looking to score. Players like Harden, Kawhi, Butler, Chris Paul, Lowry ect drive to the rim to draw contact, tilt their head back and not even trying to hit the rim.
Its also great to watch him play because his basketball iq is just out of this league. He constantly makes right decisions, identifies different coverages and attacks them where they are vulnerable, identifies rotations and knows when and where to throw the pass. To me thats what I enjoy in a sport of basketball and its great to be able to watch player like Lebron executing this sport so beautifully.
Also off the court he is a family man, one of the biggest benefactors of all athletes and outspoken about equality in the society. Off the court stuff isnt that important to me in sports but to me Lebrons off the court stuff makes me appreciate him even more.
Everyone can hate if they want but I think you should always respect his level of greatnes. When he retires, it might take tens of years until we get to watch a player as great as him.
I dont know if the hate he gets is just because he switched teams after Cleveland never managed to build a good team around him, for god sake his 2nd options were players like Mo Williams.
I dont really even care where the hate comes from because to me he is a joy to follow. His style of play is extremely great to watch. No foul drawing bullcrap like most of the stars today. When he drives to the basket he is looking to score. Players like Harden, Kawhi, Butler, Chris Paul, Lowry ect drive to the rim to draw contact, tilt their head back and not even trying to hit the rim.
Its also great to watch him play because his basketball iq is just out of this league. He constantly makes right decisions, identifies different coverages and attacks them where they are vulnerable, identifies rotations and knows when and where to throw the pass. To me thats what I enjoy in a sport of basketball and its great to be able to watch player like Lebron executing this sport so beautifully.
Also off the court he is a family man, one of the biggest benefactors of all athletes and outspoken about equality in the society. Off the court stuff isnt that important to me in sports but to me Lebrons off the court stuff makes me appreciate him even more.
Everyone can hate if they want but I think you should always respect his level of greatnes. When he retires, it might take tens of years until we get to watch a player as great as him.
King Baller
All-Star
They joined the Lakers, Nuff said.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
LeBron is a lot like Larry Bird and Magic, where they can lift lesser players to a level beyond what they would normally be. The killer instinct of Jordan and Kobe isn't there but he'll take a bad team beyond where those types can. That said, LeBron will always be hampered by the idea that he had to form "superteams" to get the job done.
And the way the league has been since Jordan, and well, really Magic and Bird is one that adapts it's identity around it's stars. Nash and Curry? Yep. Shaq anyone? My goodness what a different game they called for him. I can only imagine what Wilt would have been if they called the game like that when he played. The era he played in was closer to the skilled/soft game it is now. Zion is the one to look for. If he can stay healthy and doesn't end up mediocre we already know who the league is hoping their next golden boy is and that might usher in a more physical era if true. Or maybe it'll be even worse than now if they think him jacking up half court 3's is what will draw in the money. We shall see.
- Saying that that LeBron "needed" a superteam is misleading: those teams were "super" because he was on them. Wade, Bosh, and a bunch of dudes ain't nobody's "super" team. Same for Irving and Love. And Anthony Davis, the game-breaking Top 5 player who allegedly carried LeBron, had won a grand total of five career playoff games, before he played with LeBron. The 2019-20 lakers, with Davis, and no LeBron, are the 2018-19 Pelicans. LeBron didn't "need" super teams: he played on teams that were made super, by his presence. Those guys needed him, not the other way around.
- For as much as people who want to diminish LeBron's accomplishments love to talk about how he "needed" superteams, especially vis-a-vis comparison to Michael Jordan, not enough is made of the fact that Jordan didn't get out of the second round until after expansion diluted the benches of his competitors. In fact, both Bulls three-peats were preceded by league expansion, and that doesn't get talked about enough.
Don't think anybody dislikes him for what he does on the court. It's more the antics in terms of the level of all-out team and media/legacy narrative control that he seeks to have, whether it's firing coaches, trading guys he doesn't like, assembling superteams etc. I mean, all star players have that to an extent, but Lebron takes it to a whole new level. That, and frankly nobody likes to see the same guy/team keep winning, which is why everyone was happy that Lebron dethroned the Warriors. Personally I couldn't stand him on the Heat because of the shenanigans they pulled, but I rooted for him when he went back to Cleveland. With the eff'in Lakers? That should be pretty easy to guess.
And I would like to take this chance to once again remind everyone, that there were some on this board that weren't willing to trade DeMarcus Cousins for a 29/30 year old Lebron.
He creates super teams nothing to be amazed by, I lost the little respect I had remaining for him when he was begging kawhi to come when he already has AD. Like damn go comepete bro you why do you want it to be easy all the time
You serious?
so Giannis can go band with say Luka and Jokic and say there super cause of him lol
Well he is the best player on the planet, top 2 all time and still in his 17th season he once again proved all that. If thats nothing to be amazed by I don't know what is.
When it comes to "forming superteams", he had his first seven years wasted in Cleveland without any help. Literally his second option was Mo Williams. No one can win on their own, he saw that Boston formed "a superteam", he saw Kobe getting prime Pau Gasol, he saw Spurs with multiple all stars with Tim Duncan. All Lebron had was Mo Williams and I dont critique him for leaving that situation to play with his best friend. Later the league continued to go to that direction even more heavily to the point that you have zero chance without 2-3 all nba players.
Once he got what he wanted, he got back to Cleveland wanting to win one for them. He was clearly the best player on that team and they managed to make maybe the best comeback in the history of the sports against a team that won 73 in the regular season.
If "forming superteams" is the reason for not recognizing the facts about his greatness, then so be it but that argument isnt based on data or facts.
Let me know when Antetokounmpo leads a team of bums to the Finals, and then maybe we can re-visit that question.
LeBron James, to this point in his career, has never played on a team where he wasn't the best player on the team. If Antetokounmpo teamed up with Doncic and Jokic, are you positive that he's the best player on that team? 'Cause I'm not.
Or, to the contrary, feel free to not give LeBron his respect, if you don't want to. Just seems to me that people invent reasons to not like dude. Or, at least, they become borderline apoplectic over **** he does, when they would tolerate it from lesser players.
whozit
Starter
Lesser players won't make or break a franchise. Just how good he is on the court. That may be difference. (?)
That shouldn't be a difference. Criticizing superstars for behavior that you let slide from lesser players is dumb. To me, anyway. If anything, that should be reversed.
whozit
Starter
Oh, I agree to a point. There should be a code of conduct that applies to all equally. I know in society there are different standards applied to different individuals based on status but that is so screwed.
But this is basketball and it is a team sport but perhaps when you become bigger than the team one supports, perhaps you become a threat. Then there is the thing that while under contract, the team owns you. Has control over you and perhaps when the table is turned, we just don't like that. We want your loyalty while we offer none.
I do disagree that we should expect more from the lesser players than the stars, hold them both to the same code.
Just part of the game.
Hey, all I said was that it's BS that great players might get criticized for behavior that lesser players are allowed to skate on. You're the one who introduced the notion of somebody being a franchise player as justification for why they might get more criticism, not me. My suggestion that lesser players be criticized more for such infractions was a rebuttal to your premise, not something that I came up with, out of whole cloth.
Of course, in theory, all the players should be treated equally, but that's not where the starting point of the conversation was. And, the fact is, they're not treated equally, so how do we remedy that?
Livinthedream
All-Star
Absolutely.
Basketball marketing is centered on individual personalities. They are not forced to conform. It's hard for some to come to terms with the amount of influence the players have in all aspects of their life.
whozit
Starter
Justification? No. Rationale for something I have to admit that I do? Possibly.
It was a rambling post. And as I was typing it, I was wondering why I do hold them to different standards.
How do you fix it? I don't think you can. As long as the media makes the story about the individual, and the individual is typically the stars, we will disect their lives like we have no right to do so.
Okay... You say that it was a "rationalization," not a justification. Why did you feel the need to rationalize star players getting criticized like that, in the first place?
whozit
Starter
Because I can't justify it but I am guilty of doing it. Just hadn't given it much thought on why. Why should it matter to me that a player plays the same game that the teams do? We think it's okay that a team structures a contract that is team friendly but if a player does that, and/or exerts power that is bad. Is it really? Isn't what is good for the goose is good for the gander?
Reflecting - when LeBron first came into the league I wasn't going to be a fan - more because of my own personal preferences. I think generally I'm going to support an underdog (most of the time), am going to be put off by intense media attention, and at the time I preferred players that I could watch in college.
Today - good on him for having the career that he has had. He is clearly one of the best players to ever play the game and one of the greatest athletes of any sport. His move back to Cleveland to help them win a title was nice - and at the time I had a roommate from Cleveland that was struggling with his work, inability to adjust to expectations of Australian girls, so it was a good moment for him.
His greatness - packaged as a form of entertainment and delivered via ESPN - still isn't for me. This is probably my loss though. I was really lucky to watch and enjoy the NZ All Blacks dominate world rugby through physicality, skill, and grit for a decade plus. In basketball I probably enjoyed the most recent San Antonio championship - or the Warriors championship pre Durant and when they still had a semi-mended Bogut - more than any of LeBron's moments. But - I guess - LeBron set the standard those teams had to clear - which was pretty high. So in that sense I have enjoyed his dominance in some ways.
Today - good on him for having the career that he has had. He is clearly one of the best players to ever play the game and one of the greatest athletes of any sport. His move back to Cleveland to help them win a title was nice - and at the time I had a roommate from Cleveland that was struggling with his work, inability to adjust to expectations of Australian girls, so it was a good moment for him.
His greatness - packaged as a form of entertainment and delivered via ESPN - still isn't for me. This is probably my loss though. I was really lucky to watch and enjoy the NZ All Blacks dominate world rugby through physicality, skill, and grit for a decade plus. In basketball I probably enjoyed the most recent San Antonio championship - or the Warriors championship pre Durant and when they still had a semi-mended Bogut - more than any of LeBron's moments. But - I guess - LeBron set the standard those teams had to clear - which was pretty high. So in that sense I have enjoyed his dominance in some ways.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
They already do it's called max contracts, shoe contracts, commercials, business empires and so on. You want the spotlight you get the heat that comes with it. And whether LeBron sought out or needed superteams is irrelevant, it already is and will be his cross to bear. People made up their minds when he left Cleveland for Miami and yes, that was a superteam. They had the previous seasons number 2, 5, and 9 leading scorers on the same team. In Wade and Bron you had two top 5 players in win shares the year prior.
I don't know who "we" is, but I've been pro-player, for a very long time, even years before I got out of the "rooting for teams" business.
Okay, Don Draper. You can keep your "That's what the money is for"-type arguments for justifying why you think it's cool to bash players; I ain't here for none of that.
Nah. If you think that the Heat, minus LeBron, would have still been considered a "superteam," then that term loses any meaning, to me. He was the reason that the Heatles were "super." And, to the extent that he "formed" a "superteam," so the **** what? What kind of bull**** purity test nonsense criteria is that, anyway? LeBron plus anybody better than Mo Williams was going to be a "superteam," just because LeBron James was on it. Or, would he have had to do what only one other superstar in the history of the NBA has ever done (and he only did it once, and in a watered-down season), and carry a bunch of dudes to a championship, without another superstar, in order to be considered valid, in your eyes?
Criticizing LeBron for "forming" a superteam in Miami is basically blaming him for Wade and Bosh not wanting to live in Cleveland. Which... why the hell would you hold that against LeBron?
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Haha, it's not just what the moneys for, the league is a tiered system in almost every way imaginable. Somebody is the focal point and there are incentives that go along with it. Then it's up to the team they play for to maximize the dollars they've spent. Cough... Vivek... cough.
The Heat minus LeBron? You can't extract him from that equation though. Regardless if he was the key piece or not the fact is it looked like he jumped on another bandwagon and he kind of did. Now, compared to some of the things we saw in ensuing years from others it was just the start of a tradition of sorts, one that may very well be tearing at the fabric of whatever notion of city/team loyalty that companies like the NBA are built upon. As deceptive or unfair as that idea probably was all along in regards to players and fans. In the end he did bring a title to Cleveland but he didn't do it with a team the level of what he had last year in LA (or the coach for that matter
). And you can't discredit the performance that Irving put on in the finals. No question LeBron was the difference maker but I don't think that's an argument for anyone here.
Except, no, it didn't, and no, he didn't. He went from a team whose previous three seasons were
- 2nd-round loss
- Conference Finals losst
- 2-round loss
- 1st-round loss
- 1st-round loss
- Missed playoffs
You're not jumping onto a bandwagon, when you go to a worse team than the team you left.
:: fake dramatic gasp ::
Oh no! Not the fabric of city/team loyalty! Anything but that!
I look at Kyrie Irving's performance in the 2016 Finals exactly the same way that I look at Tony Parker's performance in the 2007 Finals: as a direct by-product of a much better teammate's greatness allowing him to flourish.
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