HndsmCelt
Hall of Famer
If wehave to split the seires or even take 3 losses aginst the Wolves I would rather do it EARLY in the season. There IS such a thing as a learning curve. Better we learn from our mistakes and correct them now. This team is beatable, but a tough tough match up for this Kings squad. I have maintained since the 0-3 start that this team needed time to gell as a squad, adjusting to Millers larger role and Webber back in the line up with new limits and hopefully strenths. I said it would be 2 steps forward one steb back for a while and so far I think I have been pretty accurate. The Kings played better this game than the last and have been looking better as a squad the last 10 games. They are not loosing the easy games but are actualy demolising the teams they should. Of course they will loose some games and it most likelythey will loose them to top teams. Time now to lear what they can, then move on and prepare for Indy at home with something to proove. I for one am not worried in the least.
I'm going to guess you meant "personnel."piksi said:
The bad part about comments like the one you made above is that they are so vague and yet damning that any response has to be predicated on an assumption of what you might have actually been trying to say...
This is a GOOD core of players. Players make mistakes. Why is it that you seem to view the Kings in a microcosm where they are supposed to be perfect every single night?
They pretty much did all the right things, with a couple of glaring errors. For the most part, the biggest mistake was NOT hitting free throws. In addition, we give up a four point swing on a blown play when Bobby was apparently mesmerized by something or someone in the arena. That's not gonna change with different personnel...
If you could provide some specifics and explain exactly how different personnel would have absolutely changed the outcome of one game, I would be very interested...
These guys need to run 6 minute drills on end-of-game scenarios or something. I don't know if you can learn to be clutch, but that's what it pretty much comes down to. On ability level, I'm fully confident they can beat any team in the league. However, in basketball, it's the last quarter that really matters unless you're in a blow-out situation.
We got guys who are willing to step up but haven't been able to bring forth the same ability level they had in other quarters. We got other guys who don't step up at all so we wouldn't know if they can perform in the clutch anyway. The rest have this weird clutch mentality where the game of people around them affects their own ability to perform. It's like some kind of contagious disease, but I guess that's the price we pay for running this kind of offense. That's the one glaring advantage a superstar team has over this one. We have no Mcgrady to push it through. We need at least 3 guys on the floor playing like they did all game. The Kings can't and shouldn't look to one guy to finish a game off for them. What brought them to the end successfully should finish for them successfully.
We got guys who are willing to step up but haven't been able to bring forth the same ability level they had in other quarters. We got other guys who don't step up at all so we wouldn't know if they can perform in the clutch anyway. The rest have this weird clutch mentality where the game of people around them affects their own ability to perform. It's like some kind of contagious disease, but I guess that's the price we pay for running this kind of offense. That's the one glaring advantage a superstar team has over this one. We have no Mcgrady to push it through. We need at least 3 guys on the floor playing like they did all game. The Kings can't and shouldn't look to one guy to finish a game off for them. What brought them to the end successfully should finish for them successfully.
Those are valid comments, Zyphen. One of my biggest frustrations is to see the Kings lead a game almost from the beginning and then lose it at the very end. Last night, it was as though they simply forgot what they needed to do to win once the Wolves got up by about 3...
The objection I have to comments like yours is that this was ONE game where they didn't get the job done. For the most part this year, they HAVE been getting the job done. I'm not even addressing the first trip through the Texas Triangle, because I think there were simply too many mitigating factors to be considered in those losses.
The Kings are going to lose some games. They're not perfect; they're not automatons. They are going to lose some they should have won, and they're going to win some they should have lost. If you recall, there was a time when we couldn't seem to beat the Mavericks either in the regular season. That doesn't really mean that much, unless you're losing to the other elite teams in blowouts, because of buzzer to buzzer poor play, etc.
IMHO, the game last night was the KINGS game to win or lose and they lost it. The Wolves didn't WIN so much as the Kings lost. I can live with that, because I'm seeing steady improvement from this team and I believe, in the long run, they will make the adjustments that have to be made. AND - hopefully - they'll make those key FTs.
The objection I have to comments like yours is that this was ONE game where they didn't get the job done. For the most part this year, they HAVE been getting the job done. I'm not even addressing the first trip through the Texas Triangle, because I think there were simply too many mitigating factors to be considered in those losses.
The Kings are going to lose some games. They're not perfect; they're not automatons. They are going to lose some they should have won, and they're going to win some they should have lost. If you recall, there was a time when we couldn't seem to beat the Mavericks either in the regular season. That doesn't really mean that much, unless you're losing to the other elite teams in blowouts, because of buzzer to buzzer poor play, etc.
IMHO, the game last night was the KINGS game to win or lose and they lost it. The Wolves didn't WIN so much as the Kings lost. I can live with that, because I'm seeing steady improvement from this team and I believe, in the long run, they will make the adjustments that have to be made. AND - hopefully - they'll make those key FTs.
piksi
Hall of Famer
VF21 said:
personel is correct.
I do not question the talent here but when same things continue happening for a period of 6 years now it stops being coincidence or just a bad night. Every year we have a good record and we choke just like we did last night when it counts. For 6 years now.
I'm also including previous years' history in my comments. I can see your more optimistic viewpoint as well though if we just focus on this year. We don't really have much to go on yet for this year.VF21 said:Those are valid comments, Zyphen. One of my biggest frustrations is to see the Kings lead a game almost from the beginning and then lose it at the very end. Last night, it was as though they simply forgot what they needed to do to win once the Wolves got up by about 3...
The objection I have to comments like yours is that this was ONE game where they didn't get the job done. For the most part this year, they HAVE been getting the job done. I'm not even addressing the first trip through the Texas Triangle, because I think there were simply too many mitigating factors to be considered in those losses.
The Kings are going to lose some games. They're not perfect; they're not automatons. They are going to lose some they should have won, and they're going to win some they should have lost. If you recall, there was a time when we couldn't seem to beat the Mavericks either in the regular season. That doesn't really mean that much, unless you're losing to the other elite teams in blowouts, because of buzzer to buzzer poor play, etc.
IMHO, the game last night was the KINGS game to win or lose and they lost it. The Wolves didn't WIN so much as the Kings lost. I can live with that, because I'm seeing steady improvement from this team and I believe, in the long run, they will make the adjustments that have to be made. AND - hopefully - they'll make those key FTs.
However, there is this definite pattern where the more the Kings place importance upon a game, the more likely they are to panic and blow it in the end. I think the team is fully aware of how much a win against the wolves means and it's getting in their heads. Whenever they play lesser teams, they just go about it like it's business as usual. Against the Grizzlies, they did a great job at closing them out both times. The game at the end looked pretty much like it did the previous 3 quarters. The difference with the wolves is I think they've been pressuring themselves unnecessarily. I know Chris has been talking about how much a win against this type of team means to them.
I don't think you can factor last year into the equation because... it was last year. Things change, and most notably, things HAVE changed.
The wins against teams like the Wolves do have to come, of course. The things the Kings need to address can and will be addressed. I think you're placing way too much emphasis on "a game getting into the player's heads." If anything, the only ones who are really affected by that kind of thinking are the fans... and you'll see a lot of them on this board after a Kings loss saying that in different ways.
You see a "definite pattern where the more the Kings place importance upon a game, the more likely they are to panic..."
The only flaw in your rationale is that the PLAYERS do not - for the most part - look at ANY game in December as being truly a defining moment. It's one game out of 82 in the early part of the season. They aren't happy about losing, because they hate to lose, but they are not fixated on losing an important game. To them, the important games are the ones AFTER mid-April.
Do not misunderstand. I am not, in any way, saying the regular season doesn't matter. It does... but not in the way a lot of people assume. You don't judge a student's performance on the final exam by a tough test in the first week of school, especially if you know it's a good student with good study habits, etc. If you have faith in the student, you believe s/he will adapt their study habits to meet the requirements of the course. I happen to believe in the student...
The wins against teams like the Wolves do have to come, of course. The things the Kings need to address can and will be addressed. I think you're placing way too much emphasis on "a game getting into the player's heads." If anything, the only ones who are really affected by that kind of thinking are the fans... and you'll see a lot of them on this board after a Kings loss saying that in different ways.
You see a "definite pattern where the more the Kings place importance upon a game, the more likely they are to panic..."
The only flaw in your rationale is that the PLAYERS do not - for the most part - look at ANY game in December as being truly a defining moment. It's one game out of 82 in the early part of the season. They aren't happy about losing, because they hate to lose, but they are not fixated on losing an important game. To them, the important games are the ones AFTER mid-April.
Do not misunderstand. I am not, in any way, saying the regular season doesn't matter. It does... but not in the way a lot of people assume. You don't judge a student's performance on the final exam by a tough test in the first week of school, especially if you know it's a good student with good study habits, etc. If you have faith in the student, you believe s/he will adapt their study habits to meet the requirements of the course. I happen to believe in the student...
iheartBrad
All-Star
::sigh::
wow another downer thread...after a kings loss...so surprising <--sarcasm
::heads to the GO KINGS v3.0 thread::
wow another downer thread...after a kings loss...so surprising <--sarcasm
::heads to the GO KINGS v3.0 thread::
iheartBrad
All-Star
^im sure thats true...(though i haven't read through the whole thread)
but its easy to get me "down" and reading the opening comment...makes me start to doubt this team (gasp!) and i hate that...thats why i said that i had to get out...im sure its great basketball talk...stuff i normally love but i hate disecting my kings like that...i usually steer clear of this site after a loss...but i came to post my predictions and then got sucked in
but any you who...that was a bit of a rant and i am now done
but its easy to get me "down" and reading the opening comment...makes me start to doubt this team (gasp!) and i hate that...thats why i said that i had to get out...im sure its great basketball talk...stuff i normally love but i hate disecting my kings like that...i usually steer clear of this site after a loss...but i came to post my predictions and then got sucked in
but any you who...that was a bit of a rant and i am now done
I know a player is supposed to think 1 game is just like any other game in the regular season. Fans probably do put too much emphasis on any particular game. However, I have a tough time accepting that the players don't think a game against the Hornets or a game against the T-wolves is different.VF21 said:I don't think you can factor last year into the equation because... it was last year. Things change, and most notably, things HAVE changed.
The wins against teams like the Wolves do have to come, of course. The things the Kings need to address can and will be addressed. I think you're placing way too much emphasis on "a game getting into the player's heads." If anything, the only ones who are really affected by that kind of thinking are the fans... and you'll see a lot of them on this board after a Kings loss saying that in different ways.
You see a "definite pattern where the more the Kings place importance upon a game, the more likely they are to panic..."
The only flaw in your rationale is that the PLAYERS do not - for the most part - look at ANY game in December as being truly a defining moment. It's one game out of 82 in the early part of the season. They aren't happy about losing, because they hate to lose, but they are not fixated on losing an important game. To them, the important games are the ones AFTER mid-April.
Do not misunderstand. I am not, in any way, saying the regular season doesn't matter. It does... but not in the way a lot of people assume. You don't judge a student's performance on the final exam by a tough test in the first week of school, especially if you know it's a good student with good study habits, etc. If you have faith in the student, you believe s/he will adapt their study habits to meet the requirements of the course. I happen to believe in the student...
They're not going to dwell on this game. They got 2 more shots against the T-wolves and that's the way they have to look at it. I fully expect they have kicked it to the back of their minds already. But leading up to the wolves game, I bet you they were a lot more invested in that game than against the bobcats. I know when I play a tough tennis or chess match against a high quality opponent, I'm a lot more psyched up leading into it. If I lose, I move on. But during the match I make a real effort to stay calm and poised. I'm not really nervous or even that afraid of losing. I'm just really excited. I think a team that's looking for a championship will also feel that same excitement even though in the grand scheme of things, it's just 1 out of 82.
Well, even if I'm unique in regards to my competitive mind, I know that there's a real perception around the league about "big wins" and thats wins against championship level teams.
I'm not saying this is the end, or we can't get better, or we need to rip out our foundations. I'm saying closing out games is what we need to get better on and we still got plenty of time to do it. Webber is only moving better as the season progresses and maybe Peja will eventually come around and drop his trade request. It's not like we're stuck in some kind of limbo like some people would suggest.
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I dunno, the game 7 against Dallas was pretty embarassing. JJ had a ridiculous game, and it still wasn't really close the entire 2nd half. I agreee, though, that the Kings do the majority of their choking earlier in the series or late in the regular season (2001, 2004) - that Game 2 choke job last year against Minnesota (the Wolves were DONE if the Kings won that game) was one of the worst collapses in playoff history. Ditto Game 3 in 2003 (8 point lead late, 4 shots to win the game in regulation/OT I, Vlade missing 2 FT late - a true Adelman special).Bricklayer said:
Facts are, EVERY season (I will give them a pass in 1999, but they still had Utah beaten in Games 4 and 5 and found a way to lose), the Kings have either melted down in the playoffs, late regular season, or both. Whether the Kings were supposed to win those series was irrelevant - being an underdog does not give you an excuse when your team blows an 8 point lead with 2 minutes left. Adelman MUST GO. Sure, his replacement might not be any better, but the Kings won't win a championship with him (barring ridiculous luck to absorb all the meltdowns, sort of like what SA got in 2003 with all the other Western contenders losing key players to injury and Mitch Kupchak asleep at the wheel), so the team might as well roll the dice.
Adelman must go?
...sigh...
Adelman wasn't at the line throwing up brick after brick. What is he supposed to do when good free throw players suddenly forget what the bleep they're doing?
Oh wait - you ARE blaming Adelman for Vlade missing those free throws.
Whatever...
...sigh...
Adelman wasn't at the line throwing up brick after brick. What is he supposed to do when good free throw players suddenly forget what the bleep they're doing?
Oh wait - you ARE blaming Adelman for Vlade missing those free throws.
Whatever...
Let's count, shall we? Exactly how many championships do the Timberwolves have? ONLY one team can win. It's not always going to be the team you hope, wish and want to win. That doesn't mean they're not capable of winning if everything falls together properly.
This "doom and gloom" stuff is just so premature. It's December, for God's sake. Is there a contest I didn't know about where, at the end of the year, IF the Kings don't make it all the way, someone will go back to these early threads to be the first to say, "See, I told you so!"??
There is no reasonable or logical way I believe anyone, at this point in the season, can actually PREDICT which team will win, lose, etc. It's all guesswork. To claim it's anything else is a bit pompous, IMHO. And hindsight is always 20-20...
This "doom and gloom" stuff is just so premature. It's December, for God's sake. Is there a contest I didn't know about where, at the end of the year, IF the Kings don't make it all the way, someone will go back to these early threads to be the first to say, "See, I told you so!"??
There is no reasonable or logical way I believe anyone, at this point in the season, can actually PREDICT which team will win, lose, etc. It's all guesswork. To claim it's anything else is a bit pompous, IMHO. And hindsight is always 20-20...
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Coaches rarely create mental fortitude.RangerC said:
Pat Riley is one of the all-time greats. His Lakers were incredibly mentally tough, led of course by one of the all-time great clutch guys in Magic. A few years later Riley coached the Knicks. They choked year after year despite Pat turning them into one of the toughest teams in the history of the league.
The 80's Celtics were led by a total milksop in K.C. Jones. His job was just to stay out of the way while Larry Bird drove the team to titles. Jerry Sloan is tough as nails. But through the years his teams were often playoff disappointments and never got over the hump. Gregg Popovich is a drill sergeant, but his teams have been all kinds of shaky in the playoffs, and have a list of collapses to rival ours. Rudy Tomjanovich once led one of the great clutch teams in NBA history -- creating the phrase "Clutch City" I think. But as Hakeem aged, Robert Horry, Sam Cassel, Vernon Maxwell moved on, his teams became consistent underacheivers -- it was the personnel, not the coach. But what all of those guys have done, win or lose, is prepare their teams and put them in a position to win. Its all you can ask. After that its up to your guys to have the cahones to pull it off.
P.S. And yes being an underdog makes a difference, because what we are calling "meltdowns" may very well have simply been the better team asserting its will, stepping forward with a championship type push. We've had our share of meltdowns, we've also had our share of big clutch moments. Just that the latter get forgotten because of the wash of disappointment int he end results.
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crypticone
G-League
Well, if everything goes right, the doom and gloom will be over in about 3 1/2 hours and we will be talking about what a great game the Kings had against Indy. That one thing I do like about these back to backs from a fans perspective. It doesn't give us long to dwell on a loss.
GoGoGadget
All-Star
On the plus side, however, if Minnesota continues to be the only team breaking our losing streaks, we'll finish the season 74-8!!!Bricklayer said:
How's that for blind optimism???
GoGoGadget
All-Star
What the crap were you attempting to say with this? I'm really curious.RangerC said:
Are you suggesting that, since we're not going to win the championship anyway, we might as well try out a potentially worse coach that may not even get us regular season wins?? Am I reading this right?
Ya know, I really love a lot of the things I read on this board, but sometimes y'all make my brain hurt!
SacKings384
Starter
"Tonight his knee scratched the floor, and he started massaging his jaw and checking his eyes. "
-- Stojakovic
Who is that a quote from?
-- Stojakovic
Who is that a quote from?
SacKings384
Starter
O... Who is he speaking of?
GoGoGadget
All-Star
Fictional Stojakovic on actual Stojakovic.SacKings384 said:
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