The Bibby Trade...

[Löwenherz]

i'd like to see someone picking 10 PGs on this list (i think this is the starting PG list, i'm not even including the backups who may be just as good as a starter) worse than/they'd rather not have over Bibby. this is defined as someone who's put up stinkier numbers this season, or has a darker outlook over the next few seasons.

Mike Bibby Season Stats (33 games with Atlanta): 14.1 ppg, 6.5 apg, 1.1 spg, 2.45 TO

The top ten guys on the list who immediately jumped out:


Rajon Rondo Boston Celtics 10.6 ppg, 5.1 apg, 1.7 spg 1.9 TO


Anthony Carter Denver Nuggets 7.8 ppg, 5.5 apg, 1.5 spg, 1.8 TO


Jamaal Tinsley Indiana Pacers 11.9 ppg, 8.4 apg, 1.7 spg, 3.33 TO


Marcus Banks Miami Heat 9.5 ppg, 3.0 apg, 0.5 spg, 1.75 TO


Shaun Livingston LA Clippers 9.3 ppg, 5.1 apg, 1.1 spg, 2.00 TO


Sebastian Telfair Minnesota Timberwolves 9.3 ppg, 5.9 apg, 1.0 spg, 1.85 TO


Nate Robinson New York Knicks 12.7 ppg, 2.9 apg, 0.8 spg, 1.43 TO


Steve Blake Portland Trail Blazers 8.5 ppg, 5.1 apg, 0.7 spg, 1.41 TO


Beno Udrih Sacramento Kings 12.8 ppg, 4.3 apg, 0.9 spg, 2.28 TO


Earl Watson Seattle SuperSonics 10.7 ppg, 6.8 apg, 0.9 spg, 2.20 T

And for the 11th, one could include

Anthony Johnson Atlanta Hawks 6.7 ppg, 4.8 apg, 1.0 spg, 1.19 TO

Also keep in mind, Udrih, Watson, Robinson and even Telfair have been having career years (in Udrih case, a contract year) Rondo has truly benefited from playing with the "Boston Three Party" to steal a line from ESPN, Livingston is still pure potential at this point, Tinsely is at the end of his career and Blake, Carter and Banks would be little more than backups on a contender.

That being said, trading Bibby was the right move. I agree he's a shell of his former self and it was time to go in a new direction. I would have liked to have gotten a better prospect or draft pick, but it was a good step.

It will only be a bust if it's not followed by more steps in that direction (Miller, Artests and God willing, K9)

 

[Jerryaki]

I just wanted to say that was one of the must confusing things that i have ever read. "they'd rather not have over bibby"? wha?

any way, i think i picked about 17 names over bibby.

and about shelden williams, ide rather have his girl Candace parker on our team than him.

sorry, that's intended to mean "your choice is a PG suckier than bibby and therefore you'd rather have bibby than said PG." it made sense in my head.

 

[Jerryaki]

I just wanted to say that was one of the must confusing things that i have ever read. "they'd rather not have over bibby"? wha?

any way, i think i picked about 17 names over bibby.

and about shelden williams, ide rather have his girl Candace parker on our team than him.

and hold up, you picked 17 PGs on this list WORSE than bibby???

 

[Bricklayer]

Bibby's likely still in the let's say 16-22 range. 14pts 6ast, good shooter, poor defender. A legit starter, but lower level now. Just a guy. He could actually still be the PG for a very good team -- right now 4 of the 8 remaining teams aren't starting guys any better/more proven (Delonte West, Derek Fisher, Jameer Nelson, Rajon Rondo). But at this point its just as that solid roleplayer guy who gets the ball to the stars and gets out of the way.

Three questions remain: 1) will Mike's ego allow him to back off to roleplayer level, or does he become something like Reef has been, still with the playing style/approach of a star, but without the game to back it up anymore? And hence not very useful.; 2) can Mike do the Peja and have a revival elsewhere? Some of that depends on whether he does accept, like Peja finally has, a support role, and whether he can find a star to make the game easy for him (harder when you are the PG, and should be noted some of it is perception -- Peja's numebrs look a lot like they did at the end of his Kings run, but now that is acceptable as a #3/#4 guy); 3) is it age/wear+tear, or system? How much was Adelman's sytem inflating/masking things for years? And can Mike find a similar system (or even return to the same coach)?

 

[Jerryaki]

The top ten guys on the list who immediately jumped out:

of the guys you listed, i'd already give the nod (not because i like them, particularly) to rondo, robinson, banks, telfair, udrih, and blake. younger guys with more potential. while they may never realize that potential...i think we know where mike maxes out at already.

 

[Löwenherz]

rondo, robinson, banks, telfair, udrih, and blake. younger guys with more potential. while they may never realize that potential...i think we know where mike maxes out at already.

That wasn't your criteria. It was guys who put up stinkier numbers OR had a darker outlook. By numbers alone, all those guys had worse seasons than Bibby.

But beyond that, I think it's misguided to rank Bibby below the likes of Banks, Telfair and Blake on the "potential" precept. That's the talent evaluator's fool's gold or the "chickens/before hatched" variable.

Blake's been in the league for six years, Banks for seven and their numbers have been consistently mediocre throughout their NBA tenure. At what point is the potential factor no longer relevant? Telfair meanwhile is putting up mediocre numbers for his third downtrotten franchise ... and been hastily scuttled from his last two NBA homes.

And of course, there's also the fact that all the guys you mentioned (with the exception of Rondo, who is really a victor of circumstance) have never been important parts of quality teams.

I'm certainly not a Bibby apologist, and his terrible showing in the playoffs only highlights that he is in the twilight of his career, but if we're talking for one season, I'd take Bibby over all the guys you mentioned.

 

[Smills91]

That's ridiculous. That's absolutely ridiculous. Anybody that would take 2005-2008 Bibby over Rajon Rondo, Raymond Felton, Kirk Hirnrich or Steve Blake (or even Jarrett Jack, for that matter), needs to have their head examined.

Yeah I'd still take Bibby over Rondo, Felton is played almost exclusively at the 2 for the Bobcats now, Hinrich as well and I most definitely take Bibby over Blake AND/OR Jack.

 

[Jerryaki]

That wasn't your criteria. It was guys who put up stinkier numbers OR had a darker outlook. By numbers alone, all those guys had worse seasons than Bibby.

But beyond that, I think it's misguided to rank Bibby below the likes of Banks, Telfair and Blake on the "potential" precept. That's the talent evaluator's fool's gold or the "chickens/before hatched" variable.

Blake's been in the league for six years, Banks for seven and their numbers have been consistently mediocre throughout their NBA tenure. At what point is the potential factor no longer relevant? Telfair meanwhile is putting up mediocre numbers for his third downtrotten franchise ... and been hastily scuttled from his last two NBA homes.

And of course, there's also the fact that all the guys you mentioned (with the exception of Rondo, who is really a victor of circumstance) have never been important parts of quality teams.

I'm certainly not a Bibby apologist, and his terrible showing in the playoffs only highlights that he is in the twilight of his career, but if we're talking for one season, I'd take Bibby over all the guys you mentioned.

true, i probably should have said AND and not OR. semantics out of the way, how about just going back tot he original question: do you think bibby is a middle of the pack PG? cuz i don't, at this stage of his career. IMO he's third tier.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Felton is played almost exclusively at the 2 for the Bobcats now

What?

The only other PG they used in April was Boykins, and he rarely got over 20 minutes while Felton was playing 40 a game. Felton had 77 assists in April, Boykins only 27 (Matt Carroll 8). Sounds like a point guard to me.

 

[chelle]

I'm a Bibby fan. I do not hide that fact. However, I am more a Kings fan than Bibby fan. That being said, it was time for him to be traded- as much for his sake as the time. It was time for the separation. I do think that we could have gotten more if we hade acted sooner, but only time will tell if it was a good trade or not.

However I must ask, why is there so much negativity towards Bibby right now? He is no longer a King. While his jersey will not hang in the rafters where Divac and Webber's will hang one day, he was part of the fabric that made for a wonderful team. I'm grateful that he was part of our history. I hope that he has an amazing season next year BUT i am more concerned about what we we still have to do before we have a good team again.

I am tired of looking back and what to look forward to what is ahead.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Boykins started zero games. McInnis only played half the season before they got rid of him, and only started twenty-six of the games he did play, none of them at PG.

The Bobcats starting lineup, when healthy, was Felton, Richardson, Wallace, Okafor and Mohammed, or Felton, Carroll, Richardson, Wallace and Okafor when they were playing smallball. When Wallace went down, their lineup was Felton, Carroll, Richardson, Dudley and Okafor, or Felton, Carroll, Richardson, Okafor and Mohammed. At no point in time did anyone other than Boykins get more than token minutes at PG, and Boykins only got sixteen minutes a game. And, if I had to guess, I would say that 30 out of 30 general managers in the league would take Felton over Bibby, given the choice.

According to 82games.com, the five lineups most commonly used by Chicago this season consisted of:

 1
	 Hinrich-Gordon-Deng-Smith-Wallace 	194  	1.09  	1.08  	+6   	9   	10   	
47.3
2
	 Hinrich-Hughes-Deng-Gooden-Noah 	165  	1.06  	0.96  	+31   	7   	7   	
50.0
3
	 Hinrich-Gordon-Deng-Nocioni-Wallace 	140  	1.09  	1.11  	+1   	6   	11   	
35.2
4
	 Hinrich-Gordon-Deng-Thomas-Wallace 	116  	0.96  	1.11  	-36   	5   	11   	
31.2
5
	 Hinrich-Hughes-Deng-Thomas-Noah 	110  	1.03  	1.16  	-30   	5   	5   	
50.0

In all five of those lineups, the backcourt combinations were either Hinrich/Gordon, or Hinrich/Hughes. Now, since I know that Hinrich is a point guard, and Gordon and Hughes are not point guards, Occam's Razor tells me that Hinrich was actually playing point guard. I think that 30 out of 30 general managers would take Hinrich over Bibby as well.

I saw enough Celtics games during the regular season to know that Rondo "RIGHT NOW" (to use your words) is better than Bibby "RIGHT NOW." And if that hadn't been enough, then the playoffs damned sure would have made off my mind. Frankly, I'd guess that 30 out of 30 general managers would take Rondo over Bibby.

Bibby is probably better than Blake/Jack, but the difference is not as significant as you might want to believe. And if Portland gets a PG in the draft, he's almost sure to be better than Bibby "RIGHT NOW."

 

[Kingzrool]

I'm a Bibby fan. I do not hide that fact. However, I am more a Kings fan than Bibby fan. That being said, it was time for him to be traded- as much for his sake as the time. It was time for the separation. I do think that we could have gotten more if we hade acted sooner, but only time will tell if it was a good trade or not.

However I must ask, why is there so much negativity towards Bibby right now? He is no longer a King. While his jersey will not hang in the rafters where Divac and Webber's will hang one day, he was part of the fabric that made for a wonderful team. I'm grateful that he was part of our history. I hope that he has an amazing season next year BUT i am more concerned about what we we still have to do before we have a good team again.

I am tired of looking back and what to look forward to what is ahead.

For me, it is because they paid him so much after that playoff series and he never really earned it. His defense was pathetic and his offense was passionate far less than half the time. His lackadaisical attitude permeated the locker room and I am truly glad that he is gone. It has been so long that I have wanted him gone, I have watched as a critic and been rarely surprised at his effort.

 

[beb0p]

Bibby had to go. It's alled "rebuilding" - you get rid of your aging and overpaid vet for expirings, young players and draft pick. It's a textbox trade that frees up cap space and open up more opportunities for the young guns. There's no chance for Douby, Beno, and others to develop with Bibby taking his customary 20 shots a game. He had to go and we got as good as deal as any for an aging/injury-prone/overpaid PG who doesn't play defense. If you think any team would give us a 1st round pick for Bibby, then you probably think the housing market is doing just great!

 

[Vlade4GM]

It didn't free up any useable cap space.

 

[Gary]

It didn't help the cap issue, you are right. It only helps the Maloof's avoid the Lux tax if they were to re-sign Beno. So as fans we won't see anything become of this, because the earliest we can do anything is 2009 which would have been the case have we kept Bibby for his final year.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I just wish people would stop saying we got cap space like it actually means anything. Yea we got cap relief (but not cap relief we can use to get anyone), yea we got a draft pick (but it was a mid 2nd round pick), and yea we got a young PF (but an unathletic, short, and largely a bust PF.) It has the appearance of a good rebuilding move, but it wasn't in actuality, it only freed up minutes for younger players, but we have no real PG prospects so that's kinda pointless too. In the end it doesn't really matter because we weren't getting anything for Bibby anyways, but it does point out that we waited way too long to trade him and that's what happens when you keep waiting to get equal value for a guy like Bibby.

 

[beb0p]

The cap relief brought us from over the luxury tax to just below the cap. It gives us room to offer Beno the MLE without going into the penalty. I think that's not shabby. If we are over the luxury tax line then re-siging Beno is not the no-brainer that it is now.

But the cap space is just icing on the cake, the major reason is that Douby, Garcia and Beno need the mins. I'm not a big fan of Douby but he is a part of the future and the opportunity is there for him to play a bigger role now that Bibby is gone. And Garcia was able to steal some mins at PG post-Bibby. I think that can be useful in his development.

And I'm for trading Artest for similar reason.

 

[fnordius]

I just wish people would stop saying we got cap space like it actually means anything.

If you're trying to judge it as a rebuilding move, you're using an incorrect standard, I think. It was cost cutting, avoiding luxury tax. I don't think it was meant to accomplish anything more than that, so I have to consider it a success. Maybe not anything for us fans to celebrate, but I'm sure that Geoff and the Maloofs are happy with it.

 

[Vlade4GM]

If you're trying to judge it as a rebuilding move, you're using an incorrect standard, I think. It was cost cutting, avoiding luxury tax. I don't think it was meant to accomplish anything more than that, so I have to consider it a success. Maybe not anything for us fans to celebrate, but I'm sure that Geoff and the Maloofs are happy with it.

What other standard should I use? The FO's expectations are irrelevant as far as I'm concerned because they can make expectations as low as they want and say it was a success. It didn't really do anything to help or hurt the team, I blame the team for waiting until Bibby's value was in the crapper trade him. My bottom line is that it was a lateral move and didn't really signicantly help our rebuild.

 

[fnordius]

My bottom line is that it was a lateral move and didn't really signicantly help our rebuild.

Right. If I thought we were in the middle of a rebuild, and it was supposed to help, I'd be annoyed that it failed to accomplish much. But I don't think we've started rebuilding yet, so the only thing I'm disappointed about is the years that have gone by without getting started on it.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Right. If I thought we were in the middle of a rebuild, and it was supposed to help, I'd be annoyed that it failed to accomplish much. But I don't think we've started rebuilding yet, so the only thing I'm disappointed about is the years that have gone by without getting started on it.

Well we SHOULD be in a rebuilding mode and the moves we make should be focused on that so those are the standards I'm going to hold every move to.

 

[gunks]

I think Petrie could have gotten better value for Bibby....About 2 seasons ago. At the start of the Muss season I was saying we should trade away the vets and people called me crazy! And now here we are.


Personally I'd take Justin over Sheldon Williams. The Landlord hasnt show much of anything.

 

[creAtivetfh]

I think Petrie could have gotten better value for Bibby....About 2 seasons ago. At the start of the Muss season I was saying we should trade away the vets and people called me crazy! And now here we are.


Personally I'd take Justin over Sheldon Williams. The Landlord hasnt show much of anything.

Justin was terrible, im so confused on why people liked him

 

[Bricklayer]

Justin was terrible, im so confused on why people liked him

You were watching the wrong end of the floor.

 

[Gary]

You were watching the wrong end of the floor.

If you say he was good defensively then ...

He was always off his man, biting on pump fakes, and looking lost out there. What he did do well was float to the rim as a weak side help-defender. But anyone can run to the rim and try to block a shot that they know is going to be there. Garcia is another player that comes to mind that does the exact same thing. If Garcia were Williams size he would have a lot of blocks as well.

 

[gunks]

At least Justin could board like a beast. Sheldon doesnt even really do that.

I'm not really under any illusions about how good he was (Justin), its more like I'm so down on Sheldon that I dont see him as an improvement.

Maybe in the summer he'll get it together. Otherwise I reeeeeaally hope we get a PF or 2 in the draft.

 

[Bricklayer]

But anyone can run to the rim and try to block a shot that they know is going to be there.

No anyone cannot. It is a very specialized skillset, much rarer than that possessed by one of our precious shooters actually. And as far as having a knack or feel for it, Justin was the most skilled player in that regrad that we've had in town since Keon Clark (Tag was always good, but largely due to his immense size).

 

[Gary]

It's called weak side shot blocking, and D... He did do it very well.. Garcia does the same thing. But I would never mistake Williams for a good defender, whether it be man on man or team D.

 

[bajaden]

Justin used to get lost in the rotations. He might look good with a block but unfortunatly he often made one of his teammates look bad by not rotating. I liked Justin and I hoped he could stay and learn, and hopefully develop a little offense along the way. Alas, it was not to be.

Bill Walsh used to say, that it was better to trade a player one year too soon, than one year too late. In Bibby's case it was probably two years too late. I think they would have liked to move him the year before last, but with the injury he simply didn't play very well. The money that susposedly went off the books just moved over into the K Mart column to pay for his new contract. Lets hope we don't make the same mistake with Miller. After last year, his value is about as high as it going to get. Now is the time to move him.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

Justin rebounded like his life depended on it, and was a good weakside shotblocker. That alone should have guaranteed him a spot on the team.