Gary
All-Star
Same, he is one of the worst starting SGs in the league right now, and he's over 30mins/game!!! He should be getting about 8-10 off the bench AT THE MOST. Alas, we don't have any other SGs that are any good.
The Alarming Stagnation of Ben McLemore
- Thread starter Bricklayer
- Start date
Same, he is one of the worst starting SGs in the league right now, and he's over 30mins/game!!! He should be getting about 8-10 off the bench AT THE MOST. Alas, we don't have any other SGs that are any good.
Jerichoholic
Bench
Exactly! He is one of the worst starting guards in the league and has been both years of his career. The most frustrating thing is that we don't know what we have with him. It's not just his potential, but his skill sets. His inconsistency is what defines him. Is he a good defender or not? Is he going to become a reliable 3-point shooter or not? Can he thrive in the Dribble Drive offense with his speed and athleticism or not? Unfortunately, I have to disagree with the proposed solution, moving him to the bench will not fix the problem, it will only make it worse. He is inconsistent enough as it is. Give him 10 to 15 minutes off the bench and we are wasting 10 to 15 minutes of time for another player who would provide more.
This will come down to if George Karl thinks he can develop to fit his offense. We need our starting shooting guard to hit open shots including 3-pointers consistently. We also need him to get to the line when those shots are taken away. I don't know why he stopped driving to the basket when it worked so well at first. I can't imagine that's coming from the coaching.
ockingsfan
Starter
Really?
BMac just turned 22 years old. How many 22 year old shooting guards are forced into playing big minutes in the NBA?
Give the kid some time people. He has shown flashes of what he can do but is very inconsistent right now.
Having 3 coaches and your point guard injured for the last 2 months sure doesn't help matters.
You guys are starting to feel like the FO and making rash decisions and judgements on people.
Coach Karl needs to figure out which players he wants and doesn't want for next year in the remaining 20 games.
BMac just turned 22 years old. How many 22 year old shooting guards are forced into playing big minutes in the NBA?
Give the kid some time people. He has shown flashes of what he can do but is very inconsistent right now.
Having 3 coaches and your point guard injured for the last 2 months sure doesn't help matters.
You guys are starting to feel like the FO and making rash decisions and judgements on people.
Coach Karl needs to figure out which players he wants and doesn't want for next year in the remaining 20 games.
Iced Espresso
Starter
He's 22 and still will be at the start of next season.
He was a raw prospect, still shows elite athleticism, has been finishing at the rim better this season, is being found at more appropriate times in the offense.
This is about the best you could hope for considering his rookie season.
Next season after an entire camp with Karl, with hopefully improving our roster, we should get a good idea on what we have here.
I'm not a fan of upgrading his spot right now, I don't think we will do much damage without a shocking trade or landing a top pick possibly, so I'd like to develop him for another season and observe.
He was a raw prospect, still shows elite athleticism, has been finishing at the rim better this season, is being found at more appropriate times in the offense.
This is about the best you could hope for considering his rookie season.
Next season after an entire camp with Karl, with hopefully improving our roster, we should get a good idea on what we have here.
I'm not a fan of upgrading his spot right now, I don't think we will do much damage without a shocking trade or landing a top pick possibly, so I'd like to develop him for another season and observe.
Iced Espresso
Starter
For the poll Brick..
I have no idea, I can see in his athleticism and all sorts of potential, all star potential for certain. Then I look at what I've seen so often on the performance level typically and I wonder if he will put it all together.
He is an anomaly, usually projects do not come in his size, they are usually big men.
And I have no idea where our FO heads are at.
So I'd vote if you had a "I have no idea" option.
I have no idea, I can see in his athleticism and all sorts of potential, all star potential for certain. Then I look at what I've seen so often on the performance level typically and I wonder if he will put it all together.
He is an anomaly, usually projects do not come in his size, they are usually big men.
And I have no idea where our FO heads are at.
So I'd vote if you had a "I have no idea" option.
Jerichoholic
Bench
I agree that it's not prudent to give up on a guy this young with this much potential, unless you can get something really nice for him, always have to see what's out there.
However I think the concern here is the level of inconsistency. All players have good and bad games, especially young players. With McLemore though we have a guy who shoots 3-pointers at 40% for two months and then 25% the next two months. We have a guy who plays lock down defense sometimes and then lets the slowest players just blow right past him other times. A guy who drives to the basket at will a couple of games and then doesn't even try driving again for the next two weeks. Normally I would call this type of thing lack of effort, but I don't think that's the case with him. I really don't know what to call this inconsistency. Bottom line is George Karl needs to have some level of confidence in knowing what McLemore can give him night in and night out. Having a 20 point game with solid defense one game and then complete disappearance with a 2 point and awful defense game the next doesn't work. When his contribution level drops, it doesn't just drop, it goes to virtually nothing.
kupman
Starter
I have been saying the same thing in other threads for awhile now. There are probably 30 SGs in the league right now better than BMac. His shooting is inconsistent to the point that my game plan against the Kings would be to leave Ben open as much as possible. I would have no respect for his shot. He may make a few, but he will not beat you.
Even worse than his shooting is his passing which is nearly non-exsistent. He turns the ball over more thanhe gets assists. Also, he has abou 1.5 assists for 33 minutes played. I mean, how hard can it be to get the ball to an open DMC even 1x every 10 minutes?
IMO, we need to trade him to a team that likes his "promising skills set" while there are still some teams out there that will still take a chance on him.
Good teams do not have a link that is this weak in their starting line-up.
P
PoundForPound
Guest
I hope Ben McLemore is traded in the off-season. He brings absolutely nothing other than athleticism to this team. He is a detriment to this team's success as a starter, maybe even off the bench. He's just terrible.
Mine is not a rash decision. Let grow and develop into a good player on another team. He has hurt the team into his second season. Pay out some bucks and get a journeyman SG to start.
notoriousBEN3
Bench
How do you expect any single player, albeit a non-marquee center piece player, to progress given the state the team is in, especially considering the season was over a long time ago without any playoff hopes?
We have seen him be a very effective 3 and D player at times. Inconsistent, yes, but he's a 2nd year player! It really makes me laugh how as soon as someone slumps or has a bad game the "trade this player" thread pops up. Give Karl some time to figure out how to use each player most effectively. If he shows no progress next season, thats one thing, but to say he doesn't belong in this league right now is ridiculous. He's a kid people
We have seen him be a very effective 3 and D player at times. Inconsistent, yes, but he's a 2nd year player! It really makes me laugh how as soon as someone slumps or has a bad game the "trade this player" thread pops up. Give Karl some time to figure out how to use each player most effectively. If he shows no progress next season, thats one thing, but to say he doesn't belong in this league right now is ridiculous. He's a kid people
Jerichoholic
Bench
That's just the thing, this team is always in a bad state, that's why players aren't developing, in my opinion. Hopefully Karl can get this fixed and I think he can. The question is though, do you still think McLemore is the starting shooting guard for let's say the next five years? I don't see him as a bench player. There is Stauskas who can still develop and might be a better fit if he does and there are veterans who could sign here as well.
He's probably as good or better than 1/3 of the leagues starting sg.
He's also probably younger and been through more upheaval than any of them.
He has also shown, through all of that chaos and pt he wasn't ready for, that he has a lot of potential to be the exact type of low usage 3andd player we need. For all of your moaning about his assists, he isn't involved in the offense enough to expect much more. Look at some of the other low usage sg to see that the assists numbers are pretty much in line.
He's also on a rookie deal so of all the places we need upgrades, are we really going to spend a lot on a more consistent 3andd guy, when we stupidly have another one also waiting in the wings.
I know everyone assumes there are tons of sg out there who would contribute so much more but unless we plan on shelling out all of our cap space while ignoring the other major issues on our team, being patient with Ben (and/or nik) may be our best option.
notoriousBEN3
Bench
Let's also keep fit/chemistry in mind here too. There are a lot of guys who need the ball in their hands a lot to be an offensive threat. With Rudy and Cuz, we can't really fit in another ball dominant player, unless it's maybe distributing pg. Bmac can;t really score off of the dribble too well and create for himself, but if the guys can find him when others are being double teamed, he can effectively score/shoot without needing to make the play himself, and that's a necessary player to have on this squad if we plan to keep Rudy and Cuz together.
I agree, Afflalo would be an awesome fit and hopefully he could be a great mentor for Bmac (or even Stauskas for that matter, though they have different styles of play), but i don't see sg as our biggest weakness just yet. Not until i see what he comes out with next season and how he does with a full camp under George b/c let's face it, he's not the highest IQ player on the team, he probably needs a full offseason as much, if not more than everyone else on the team. We're definitely not firing Karl anytime soon with the contract we just gave him, so hopefully a consistent and definitive role will help him regain what i believe he is capable of.
I agree, Afflalo would be an awesome fit and hopefully he could be a great mentor for Bmac (or even Stauskas for that matter, though they have different styles of play), but i don't see sg as our biggest weakness just yet. Not until i see what he comes out with next season and how he does with a full camp under George b/c let's face it, he's not the highest IQ player on the team, he probably needs a full offseason as much, if not more than everyone else on the team. We're definitely not firing Karl anytime soon with the contract we just gave him, so hopefully a consistent and definitive role will help him regain what i believe he is capable of.
lawlman91
Starter
It must boggle the mind to see that there are players that were once deemed as "scrubs" and "terrible" that, once placed into a good system (e.g. Spurs), all of a sudden became "good". We need to fix our system first, which means to let Karl adjust to the players and to let the players adjust to Karl.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I agree with a lot of what you say, although we may have different conclusions as to why the players might be unhappy. But unhappy they are. I don't think they have anything against Karl. After all, he's a proven winner. I think their unhappiness has more to do with how the season has gone. I think they know that the rest of the season is one big experiment. Basically, auditions are being held by Karl. It's all a prelude to next season. Which is all well and good for the players that still have something to prove, but for players like Gay and Cousins, players with little to prove, it becomes laborious. Of course their still being paid to play the game, so there are no excuses for not bringing their A game. That's hardly what Gay brought to the last game. I hate to keep picking in him, but the way he defended, and I'm using that word loosely, was atrocious.
I don't like singling out one player as the reason a team is failing. However, there's no doubt that McLemore has been struggling of late, both offensively and defensively. I don't think you can blame anyone for poor shooting other than the player himself. An open shot is an open shot regardless of who the coach is. You certainly don't make or miss a shot because of a coach. You might take worse shots, or more shots because of a coach, and I think perhaps that might have something to do with it. Karl runs a system where he lets the players make decisions for themselves. He wants them to be more aggressive. That will work for some players, and expose others. I think right now, McLemore is being exposed a little. You can't attack the basket with just average handles, and that's what he's doing. He's also trying to create his own shot, and many times ends up taking a forced shot, or an off balance shot. In a system that requires players to make decisions, McLemore is making a lot of bad decisions. Hopefully he's learning from them.
I have no answer as to why he's suddenly playing bad defensively. At times he looks like the player from last season. Perhaps his struggles on offense are affecting his defense. It does happen with some players. But by no means am I ready to give up on him. By seasons end he should know what he needs to work on this coming off season, and show up better prepared at training camp. That doesn't mean I wouldn't trade him for the right deal. I'd trade just about anyone on this team if I thought it would improve the team. Which leads me to wonder how much imput Karl will have in regards to the draft, trades, and free agent signings? He's been known to be quite vocal in the past when it comes to personnel decisions. Depending on how strong a relationship PDA and Karl have, there could be a power struggle looming in the future. I hope not! We've had enough drama to last a lifetime already.
- Seems to me that there are a lot of mediocre-to-bad teams that thought that they could replicated what the Spurs did, and failed. That Popovich coaching tree isn't as impressive as one might think.
- The core of Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili and Gregg Popovich have a funny way of making "scrubs" and "terrible" players look decent. But, you still have to have the core to start with. And, quiet as it's kept, it can't be overstated enough that the "Spurs effect" took the better part of a decade before it actually happened.
- Let's not pretend that they drafted Duncan, and immediately started turning scrubs into good players. Duncan was surrounded by proven vets for his first three championships. And, by the time they got to the fourth one, He, Parker and Ginobili were the proven vets. If that 2003 squad had just been Duncan, Parker, Ginobili and ten dudes from the D-League, they wouldn't have won jack, either.
Livinthedream
All-Star
I don't normally agree with you, but this was thought out and well said.
lawlman91
Starter
I'm not advocating a Spurs system. I'm advocating that we set up a stable system and culture beforehand and then see how Ben fits into that system. Given the right environment players are bound to succeed. With Ben's athleticism, its much more likely that he will succeed.
For example, Landry has been good when we had the "Malone-environment"; now with Karl, Landry isn't so "good". I'm only using the Spurs as an example to show that there is a relationship between environment and player success. I do not advocate replicating the Spurs.
Again, I'm not advocating that the Kings replicate the Spurs; all I'm saying is that we need to see the Kings play style situation stabilize before making judgments about whether or not Ben fits into that system. Karl is still making adjustments that will carry the Kings to the future. In fact, he's looking to get a really, really good coaching staff that would reportedly make the current players better.
Same as the above: I'm not advocating that we replicate the Spurs.
All I'm saying is: we ought to look to change the environment via 1) letting Karl get used to the players and letting the players get used to Karl; 2) letting Karl assemble his preferred coaching staff. We ought to see whether or not, given the right environment, Ben could thrive.[/quote]
I'll have to beg to differ with your Landry example, unless you're working with a much more liberal definition of "good." Even under Malone, he was just a finisher: he still didn't pass, he still didn't rebound, he still didn't play any defense.
McLemore has regressed, that much is undisputed. He's not the reason why we're losing, but his regression certainly factors into us not winning. I'll leave the question of why he has regressed to the rest of you, as I don't know, and I'm not particularly interested.
McLemore has regressed, that much is undisputed. He's not the reason why we're losing, but his regression certainly factors into us not winning. I'll leave the question of why he has regressed to the rest of you, as I don't know, and I'm not particularly interested.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Insomniacal Fan
Starter
I played around a Bkref myself to find comparable players of that age group, result of the search is below.
http://bkref.com/tiny/F11a6
Ben's season percentages are not especially notable on that list. FG% is at the same level that Ray Allen was as a 21 year old for what that's worth. There's nothing in his FG% that implies he won't be a great player.
About the only notable negative about Ben that I could find on the list was his PER, in which he is last on that list. Besides shooting and dunking, Ben doesn't do much on the court, his assists are low, his rebounding is mediocre. Part of this must be attributable is his role in the system, part of it due to his sub-par ball handling sticking him in that role (The positive side to not touching the ball very much is that he doesn't turn the ball over; however PER doesn't seem to penalize players very much for turning the ball over)
Here's the NBA's touch table
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TCH&dir=-1&CF=MIN*G*30
Among major minute players, Ben touches the ball at the rate of a Kyle Korver or a JJ Reddick. During those touches, he gets to savor the sphere for an average 1.8 seconds before releasing it to its destiny. Ben is largely not responsible for the quality of shot that he gets to take.
I don't see much room for Ben to improve statistically without an increase in touches.
http://bkref.com/tiny/F11a6
Ben's season percentages are not especially notable on that list. FG% is at the same level that Ray Allen was as a 21 year old for what that's worth. There's nothing in his FG% that implies he won't be a great player.
About the only notable negative about Ben that I could find on the list was his PER, in which he is last on that list. Besides shooting and dunking, Ben doesn't do much on the court, his assists are low, his rebounding is mediocre. Part of this must be attributable is his role in the system, part of it due to his sub-par ball handling sticking him in that role (The positive side to not touching the ball very much is that he doesn't turn the ball over; however PER doesn't seem to penalize players very much for turning the ball over)
Here's the NBA's touch table
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TCH&dir=-1&CF=MIN*G*30
Among major minute players, Ben touches the ball at the rate of a Kyle Korver or a JJ Reddick. During those touches, he gets to savor the sphere for an average 1.8 seconds before releasing it to its destiny. Ben is largely not responsible for the quality of shot that he gets to take.
I don't see much room for Ben to improve statistically without an increase in touches.
Bosnian Diehard
Starter
He read this thread before the game.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
lawlman91
Starter
lawlman91
Starter
The Alarming Stagnation of Omri Casspi
The Alarming Stagnation of DeMarcus Cousins
The Alarming Stagnation of Reggie Evans
The Alarming Stagnation of Rudy Gay
The Alarming Stagnation of Ryan Hollins
The Alarming Stagnation of Carl Landry
The Alarming Stagnation of Ray McCallum
The Alarming Stagnation of Nik Stauskas
The Alarming Stagnation of Jason Thompson
The Alarming Stagnation of Derrick Williams
