Tanking or rebuilding?

[bajaden]

Agree with a lot of what you've said here.

I do wonder, though, about the notion that every guy that starts out on the ground floor needs to be there when the team makes its final push into championship contention. Could the classic era Kings have won a title with J-Will? Probably not (although he did eventually win one with the Heat), but Petrie was eventually able to swap him out for Bibby, who could and should have taken us to the promised land. So, while the FO likely doesn't see IT the starting PG of the 2017 championship winning Kings, maybe they'll keep him around for a couple more years as they keep building to that point.

Don't disagree, but that comes with a price of course, and the price could be high. We just don't know. The question I would have, is did the Kings think that J. Will was going to be the starting PG on a championship team, or at least think it was a possibility. I don't think you use a long term contract on a player that you intend to use as a place holder. Unless of course the price is right. In IT's case, if Gay decides not to opt out, resigning IT, or anyone else for that matter, will probably put us into the luxury tax. Its just a matter of how far. Now if the price is right, and you can't find a good starting PG, either through the draft, trade, or freeagency, then resigning IT, with the idea that he hold down the starting job until such time the Kings find that player, is just fine with me. You can always move IT to the bench once you have your starter. It all comes down to money. I hate to say they have to be careful, and not forfeit the future financially, because someone will throw Landry in my face.

 

[funkykingston]

The jury is still out on the Williams deal, but in general I like it. The problem I have with the team right now is, Gray, Landry, Acy, Evans, JT, and Cousins. That's 6 frontcourt players and you could even throw Williams into that group. If we were to draft another frontcourt player (Embiid, Vonleh, or Cauley-Stein) that would bring us to seven frontcourt players. Obviously something has to give. The offseason should be very interesting.

You're definitely correct on PDA being an opportunist. It's a matter of semantics I suppose as to whether that constitutes "win-now" mode or not since yes, you're looking to immediately increase talent level but at the same time not worried about fit or proper team construction which makes it a bit of an odd, if somewhat understandable approach.

Williams and Gay are the two biggest examples. Neither one would be considered buying low or deals done with an eye on cap flexibility but rather on potential. Potential for Williams in the sense that he's still very young and has some physical gifts and a higher possible ceiling than the man he was dealt for in Mbah a Moute. Potential for Gay in the sense that his huge contract allowed the Kings to give up nothing of consequence to get him and that his role in Toronto was a big part of his devaluation around the league and that he could flourish in different circumstances.

But as to the second part of what I quoted from your post the roster is very obviously unbalanced. But at the same time, Gray is a FA this offseason and the Kings have an option for Acy. So they could trim some guys pretty quickly if they wanted. Williams and Evans (and Outlaw) will be ending contracts next year making them easy to trade as well. And I still think JT is an ideal third big. In my mind the only real issue to me is Landry. He doesn't fit, he isn't a good trade chip and his contract runs for three more seasons. I'll be curious to see what happens with him this offseason and beyond. My guess is nothing but I'd like to be wrong.

Obviously in the NBA what really matters is getting that core group of players and then building around them. I think Gay and Cousins are two corners of a triangle and PDA needs to find that last part of the trio. After that the roster imbalances (save for Landry) should be pretty easy to sort out.

In fact, the Thornton trade clarifies things further for me. If I were the Kings GM I'd now be looking at the roster thusly:

C/PF ???
PF/C Cousins
SF Gay
SG ???
PG ???
Sixth man: Thomas (if retained)
3rd Big: Thompson
4th Big: Evans

The draft is a chance to fill one of those three holes - ideally with your third star. Then free agency and trades (likely using ending contracts I'd imagine) could hopefully give you the other two.

Exum or Embiid could give the Kings that third star. Or maybe they deal their pick for Rondo. How much woudl it take to pry Larry Sanders loose from the Bucks? Lots of ways to build around a core of Cousins and Gay but ultimately the team needs a point guard to get them the ball and a PF or C who can protect the basket. Balancing the roster becomes easy once the key pieces are in place.

 

[mac]

You're definitely correct on PDA being an opportunist. It's a matter of semantics I suppose as to whether that constitutes "win-now" mode or not since yes, you're looking to immediately increase talent level but at the same time not worried about fit or proper team construction which makes it a bit of an odd, if somewhat understandable approach.

Williams and Gay are the two biggest examples. Neither one would be considered buying low or deals done with an eye on cap flexibility but rather on potential. Potential for Williams in the sense that he's still very young and has some physical gifts and a higher possible ceiling than the man he was dealt for in Mbah a Moute. Potential for Gay in the sense that his huge contract allowed the Kings to give up nothing of consequence to get him and that his role in Toronto was a big part of his devaluation around the league and that he could flourish in different circumstances.

But as to the second part of what I quoted from your post the roster is very obviously unbalanced. But at the same time, Gray is a FA this offseason and the Kings have an option for Acy. So they could trim some guys pretty quickly if they wanted. Williams and Evans (and Outlaw) will be ending contracts next year making them easy to trade as well. And I still think JT is an ideal third big. In my mind the only real issue to me is Landry. He doesn't fit, he isn't a good trade chip and his contract runs for three more seasons. I'll be curious to see what happens with him this offseason and beyond. My guess is nothing but I'd like to be wrong.

Obviously in the NBA what really matters is getting that core group of players and then building around them. I think Gay and Cousins are two corners of a triangle and PDA needs to find that last part of the trio. After that the roster imbalances (save for Landry) should be pretty easy to sort out.

In fact, the Thornton trade clarifies things further for me. If I were the Kings GM I'd now be looking at the roster thusly:

C/PF ???
PF/C Cousins
SF Gay
SG ???
PG ???
Sixth man: Thomas (if retained)
3rd Big: Thompson
4th Big: Evans

The draft is a chance to fill one of those three holes - ideally with your third star. Then free agency and trades (likely using ending contracts I'd imagine) could hopefully give you the other two.

Exum or Embiid could give the Kings that third star. Or maybe they deal their pick for Rondo. How much woudl it take to pry Larry Sanders loose from the Bucks? Lots of ways to build around a core of Cousins and Gay but ultimately the team needs a point guard to get them the ball and a PF or C who can protect the basket. Balancing the roster becomes easy once the key pieces are in place.

Agree with you and Baja. One of my main concerns is that the FO will not let Ben fail for pride related reasons. We've really penciled him as our SG of the future, which would be fine had he actually shown us anything to base that decision on. It's fine to be patient with Ben and give him time to develop, that's perfectly reasonable even taking into consideration his play thus far. What's not reasonable, is to look at his play thus far and then project him to be our surefire SG of the future, which the FO seems to have done from day 1.

 

[bajaden]

Agree with you and Baja. One of my main concerns is that the FO will not let Ben fail for pride related reasons. We've really penciled him as our SG of the future, which would be fine had he actually shown us anything to base that decision on. It's fine to be patient with Ben and give him time to develop, that's perfectly reasonable even taking into consideration his play thus far. What's not reasonable, is to look at his play thus far and then project him to be our surefire SG of the future, which the FO seems to have done from day 1.

While I agree with you that he was drafted with the idea in mind that he would fill the SG position for the future, PDA also seems to be fairly flexible. He had no problem acquiring Mbah A Moute to be our defensive specialist, and then suddenly changing him out for D.Will. He strikes me as a guy that's willing to wheel and deal until he finds the right piece. You can make those decisions fairly quick with older experienced players, and that's why GM's and coaches like them. They know what their getting. But with young players like McLemore, you have to be more patient. That's the price you pay with young unproven players. You save on the financial end, but you pay with time. The key is to not give up prematurely on a young player. I won't bore you with comparisons, but needless to say, there have been quite a few players come into the league that didn't impress their first year, but went on to become good players, and in some cases stars.

In the old days when the Larry Bird's of the world ruled, they all had four years of college under their belt, so you had a much better idea of what you were getting. Marcus Smart didn't help himself by staying another year of college, because in his case, some of his flaws were exposed. Or if not exposed, the fact that he didn't improve was exposed, and growth is what your looking for in a young player. I'd be surprised if PDA passed up a good deal because he didn't want to trade McLemore. Every one has a price.

 

[Kingster]

You're definitely correct on PDA being an opportunist. It's a matter of semantics I suppose as to whether that constitutes "win-now" mode or not since yes, you're looking to immediately increase talent level but at the same time not worried about fit or proper team construction which makes it a bit of an odd, if somewhat understandable approach.

Williams and Gay are the two biggest examples. Neither one would be considered buying low or deals done with an eye on cap flexibility but rather on potential. Potential for Williams in the sense that he's still very young and has some physical gifts and a higher possible ceiling than the man he was dealt for in Mbah a Moute. Potential for Gay in the sense that his huge contract allowed the Kings to give up nothing of consequence to get him and that his role in Toronto was a big part of his devaluation around the league and that he could flourish in different circumstances.

But as to the second part of what I quoted from your post the roster is very obviously unbalanced. But at the same time, Gray is a FA this offseason and the Kings have an option for Acy. So they could trim some guys pretty quickly if they wanted. Williams and Evans (and Outlaw) will be ending contracts next year making them easy to trade as well. And I still think JT is an ideal third big. In my mind the only real issue to me is Landry. He doesn't fit, he isn't a good trade chip and his contract runs for three more seasons. I'll be curious to see what happens with him this offseason and beyond. My guess is nothing but I'd like to be wrong.

Obviously in the NBA what really matters is getting that core group of players and then building around them. I think Gay and Cousins are two corners of a triangle and PDA needs to find that last part of the trio. After that the roster imbalances (save for Landry) should be pretty easy to sort out.

In fact, the Thornton trade clarifies things further for me. If I were the Kings GM I'd now be looking at the roster thusly:

C/PF ???
PF/C Cousins
SF Gay
SG ???
PG ???
Sixth man: Thomas (if retained)
3rd Big: Thompson
4th Big: Evans

The draft is a chance to fill one of those three holes - ideally with your third star. Then free agency and trades (likely using ending contracts I'd imagine) could hopefully give you the other two.

Exum or Embiid could give the Kings that third star. Or maybe they deal their pick for Rondo. How much woudl it take to pry Larry Sanders loose from the Bucks? Lots of ways to build around a core of Cousins and Gay but ultimately the team needs a point guard to get them the ball and a PF or C who can protect the basket. Balancing the roster becomes easy once the key pieces are in place.

I don't think Williams is around next year. For a non-starter he doesn't bring enough defense to the table Gray is another one probably out. Same with Thompson. I never have figured out Landry except for the "culture" thing. The lynchpin seems to by Gay and whether he opts out. I still wonder whether after playing with Cousins for a while he's had enough.

 

[The_Jamal]

While I agree with you that he was drafted with the idea in mind that he would fill the SG position for the future, PDA also seems to be fairly flexible. He had no problem acquiring Mbah A Moute to be our defensive specialist, and then suddenly changing him out for D.Will. He strikes me as a guy that's willing to wheel and deal until he finds the right piece. You can make those decisions fairly quick with older experienced players, and that's why GM's and coaches like them. They know what their getting. But with young players like McLemore, you have to be more patient. That's the price you pay with young unproven players. You save on the financial end, but you pay with time. The key is to not give up prematurely on a young player. I won't bore you with comparisons, but needless to say, there have been quite a few players come into the league that didn't impress their first year, but went on to become good players, and in some cases stars.

In the old days when the Larry Bird's of the world ruled, they all had four years of college under their belt, so you had a much better idea of what you were getting. Marcus Smart didn't help himself by staying another year of college, because in his case, some of his flaws were exposed. Or if not exposed, the fact that he didn't improve was exposed, and growth is what your looking for in a young player. I'd be surprised if PDA passed up a good deal because he didn't want to trade McLemore. Every one has a price.

Our very own Thomas Robinson is a good example. Last year, he looked like he'd be out of the NBA in 2 years. This year, he's starting to display some of the talent that got him picked 5th and is a productive bench big for one of the best team in the west. He's improved across the board in all categories. Lower TO's, better efficiency, more rebounds. His rebounding % would put him in the top 10, if he had the minutes to qualify. That's pretty darn good.

Not a perfect example, but the point remains the same. You have to be patient with your young guys.

 

[Bricklayer]

Our very own Thomas Robinson is a good example. Last year, he looked like he'd be out of the NBA in 2 years. This year, he's starting to display some of the talent that got him picked 5th and is a productive bench big for one of the best team in the west. He's improved across the board in all categories. Lower TO's, better efficiency, more rebounds. His rebounding % would put him in the top 10, if he had the minutes to qualify. That's pretty darn good.

Not a perfect example, but the point remains the same. You have to be patient with your young guys.

Wait, Mr. 4.4pts 4.1rebs on .452 shooting is an example of why you wait?

You can wait. If you have nothing better to do with the roster spot sure. Young guys by their nature should improve. But when you've got a scrub kid the chances of him improving enough to justify waiting on it go down considerably. Jimmer improved. TRob improved. But they improved to what? Slightly better bench players? There's no real reason to wait on that when you're talking about lottery picks. You can sign guys just as good in the open market, and because lottery picks have big contracts, the FAs may not even cost you that much.

Waiting on a star or specialist shotblocker type makes sense. Waiting for your 10th man to maybe grow into your 7th man in a few years is just kind of wasting time.

BTW, the best case/best excuse to be made for McLemore is the Kevin Martin example. And KMart was older. On the other hand Kevin barely played as a rookie, so his failure could be pointed to as being as much about opportunity as anything. Ben has been front and center exposing scary weaknesses every night. If his age is more reason to hope than a Kevin or TRob or Jimmer, his game is less reason to.

 

[The_Jamal]

Wait, Mr. 4.4pts 4.1rebs on .452 shooting is an example of why you wait?

You can wait. If you have nothing better to do with the roster spot sure. Young guys by their nature should improve. But when you've got a scrub kid the chances of him improving enough to justify waiting on it go down considerably. Jimmer improved. TRob improved. But they improved to what? Slightly better bench players? There's no real reason to wait on that when you're talking about lottery picks. You can sign guys just as good in the open market, and because lottery picks have big contracts, the FAs may not even cost you that much.

Waiting on a star or specialist shotblocker type makes sense. Waiting for your 10th man to maybe grow into your 7th man in a few years is just kind of wasting time.

BTW, the best case/best excuse to be made for McLemore is the Kevin Martin example. And KMart was older. On the other hand Kevin barely played as a rookie, so his failure could be pointed to as being as much about opportunity as anything. Ben has been front and center exposing scary weaknesses every night. If his age is more reason to hope than a Kevin or TRob or Jimmer, his game is less reason to.

I don't care about raw stats with Trob. Those are purely related to minutes. I care about the 2.5% FG rise and 9% FT rise. Decreasing his TOV% by 7%, while maintaining the same USG%. The increased Rebounding rate that would put him in top 10 in the NBA, with proper minutes. Also, give Trob minutes on a struggling team, like he should be on, and he's probably pushing double-double numbers with proper MPG. He's only getting 11 right now.

He's certainly far from being busting out of the league in 2 years, like many thought. He's 22 years old. There's still plenty of time for him to develop into a starter for somebody

 

[funkykingston]

I don't think Williams is around next year. For a non-starter he doesn't bring enough defense to the table Gray is another one probably out. Same with Thompson. I never have figured out Landry except for the "culture" thing. The lynchpin seems to by Gay and whether he opts out. I still wonder whether after playing with Cousins for a while he's had enough.

Gray will bounce around the NBA as a 2nd center on bad teams and an emergency big on good ones and either way making the league minimum or close to it. He may or may not be back with the Kings but I would agree that it doesn't matter either way.

Williams' biggest issue is horrible inconsistency across the board. He can defend in spurts, rebound in spurts, score in bunches when he's aggressive but usually has two games where he doesn't really show up at all for every one game where he contributes significantly. Of course, he's under contract for next season so he'll be back barring a trade. He'll definitely have some trade value next year as an ending contract. Even if he started putting it all together I think his real trade value will still be in representing an ending contract. In fact, the Kings will have nearly $17 million in ending contracts next season and potentially nearly $18 million if they pick up Acy's option. Maybe they do another Rudy Gay type deal? Larry Sanders would be a great target if Milwaukee decides to cut ties.

The team has an option for Acy. Before the Thornton for Terry/Evans trade I figured it was a no brainer that they'd bring him back. Now I think he's a cost savings casualty given that the Kings could very easily be creeping up to luxury tax levels if Gay doesn't opt out and IT is re-signed.

Landry is a bad contract. No real other way to look at it. Nearly $7million in cap room that could be put to far better use and IMO D'Alessandro's worst move as GM.

I don't get any sense that Gay doesn't like playing with Cousins. The two of them seem like very complimentary players and I haven't seen any evidence that there's any animosity on the court or off. In fact, for a team with such a large amount of turnover and real struggles on the court the only blowups I've noticed are (1) Malone at the whole team and (2) JT being obviously exasperated with IT.

 

[funkykingston]

I don't care about raw stats with Trob. Those are purely related to minutes. I care about the 2.5% FG rise and 9% FT rise. Decreasing his TOV% by 7%, while maintaining the same USG%. The increased Rebounding rate that would put him in top 10 in the NBA, with proper minutes. Also, give Trob minutes on a struggling team, like he should be on, and he's probably pushing double-double numbers with proper MPG. He's only getting 11 right now.

He's certainly far from being busting out of the league in 2 years, like many thought. He's 22 years old. There's still plenty of time for him to develop into a starter for somebody

The consensus on Robinson coming out of Kansas was that he was the most NBA ready prospect. That he had a lower ceiling but a higher floor. And while I think his rookie season redifined what his floor really was I haven't seen anything that would change my opinion of his ceiling. Yes, he's improved and I'm not discounting that but if he finds his niche it will be as a role player.

DraftExpress gave the pre-draft worst case scenario for TRob as Reggie Evans. I could see that, but right now he has a ways to go to hit that mark. But a hustling, Fareed/Evans type player is a realistic goal. Maybe slightly more if he really works on his jumper.

Either way the Kings had no reason to be patient with him. Robinson was a terrible fit next to Cousins anyway just as Landry is now. For all his faults Petrie should have known better. My biggest fear with PDA is that he really doesn't know any better.

 

[LPKingsFan]

re: Acy, according to Sham the Kings have until July 25, 2014 to waive him before his contract becomes guaranteed. Hopefully the rest of the big man glut will have been solved by then, as he'd be fine even as a 5th big making under a million.

 

[Kingster]

I don't get any sense that Gay doesn't like playing with Cousins. The two of them seem like very complimentary players and I haven't seen any evidence that there's any animosity on the court or off. In fact, for a team with such a large amount of turnover and real struggles on the court the only blowups I've noticed are (1) Malone at the whole team and (2) JT being obviously exasperated with IT.

I've seen evidence throughout the year that whole team's mood is affected by Cousins' negativity. About the only one so far that hasn't let Cousins within his force field is Evans (Witness his consistent smile). Everybody else is left to be "acted upon" one way or another by the whimsical moods of Cousins. Gay is included.

 

[The_Jamal]

The consensus on Robinson coming out of Kansas was that he was the most NBA ready prospect. That he had a lower ceiling but a higher floor. And while I think his rookie season redifined what his floor really was I haven't seen anything that would change my opinion of his ceiling. Yes, he's improved and I'm not discounting that but if he finds his niche it will be as a role player.

DraftExpress gave the pre-draft worst case scenario for TRob as Reggie Evans. I could see that, but right now he has a ways to go to hit that mark. But a hustling, Fareed/Evans type player is a realistic goal. Maybe slightly more if he really works on his jumper.

Either way the Kings had no reason to be patient with him. Robinson was a terrible fit next to Cousins anyway just as Landry is now. For all his faults Petrie should have known better. My biggest fear with PDA is that he really doesn't know any better.

I'm not trying to defend the pick. I was flat out wrong that draft. I hated Drummond as a prospect and plugged Trob constantly. He was my #3 guy in the draft behind Davis and Beal. Whoops.

Im talking more about giving guys the time to see what they really have. Regardless of trob's fit with the team, it's absolutely asinine that we gave up on him after 50 games. That is clearly not enough time to see what he's got.

And remember, at the time of the Landry signing, we were severely lacking offensive players who could score for themselves. Essentially, it was IT and Cuz. The idea was to recreate the offensive punch GS had off the bench last season with Jack and Landry.

Since, we've upgraded IT's role and added Rudy Gay and Derrick Williams. So offense has become much less of an issue.

 

[bajaden]

The consensus on Robinson coming out of Kansas was that he was the most NBA ready prospect. That he had a lower ceiling but a higher floor. And while I think his rookie season redifined what his floor really was I haven't seen anything that would change my opinion of his ceiling. Yes, he's improved and I'm not discounting that but if he finds his niche it will be as a role player.

DraftExpress gave the pre-draft worst case scenario for TRob as Reggie Evans. I could see that, but right now he has a ways to go to hit that mark. But a hustling, Fareed/Evans type player is a realistic goal. Maybe slightly more if he really works on his jumper.

Either way the Kings had no reason to be patient with him. Robinson was a terrible fit next to Cousins anyway just as Landry is now. For all his faults Petrie should have known better. My biggest fear with PDA is that he really doesn't know any better.

Robinson was one of those players that I had to talk myself into. You listen to all the hype, but then when you watch the games, you don't see what the hype is based on. If you end up drafting him, you hope the hype is right and your personal vision is wrong. My original opinion was that he could be a hustle type player in the Kenneth Faried mode at worse. Now if looks like that's at best. He certainly has all the physical gifts necessary to succeed. What I question is his BBIQ. And without that, he'll never be more than a bench player. Where the Robinson/McLemore comparisons don't fly is the fact that Robinson went to Kansas for three years, and McLemore only had one year. Give McLemore two more years of college and he's a much better player.

I agree with Bricky, that if your going to wait for a player to develop, you better be waiting for a star, or something close to it. The problem is, the players projections are based on somewhat abstract subjective opinions. Now Bricky has his opinion, based on what he's seen so far, and I have mine. And of course, we both think we're right. Therein lies the problem. Who is right? At what point do you cut the ties? How patient should you be? Remember, Dirk Nowitzki was almost booed off the floor his rookie year in Dallas. Steve Nash didn't look anything like Steve Nash his rookie year. Kobe averaged around 12 or so minutes coming off the bench his rookie year. The Lebron James of the world are the exception. Jermaine O'Neal sat at the end of the bench in Portland for three years before he ever did anything resembling what he was to become.

Those players were certainly worth waiting on. Of course I could name even more players that failed. Some that were out of the league entirely, or just bounced around from team to team. So its a gamble. Hopefully an educated gamble, but any way you cut it, the percentages of your ending up with a star are stacked against you. Sometimes, you just have to be lucky.

 

[bajaden]

I've seen evidence throughout the year that whole team's mood is affected by Cousins' negativity. About the only one so far that hasn't let Cousins within his force field is Evans (Witness his consistent smile). Everybody else is left to be "acted upon" one way or another by the whimsical moods of Cousins. Gay is included.

Having played at the professional level, I can tell you that what you see on the floor has little to do what happens in the locker room, or away from the game in the personal lives of the players. I had many disputes with teammates while on the field, some of them heated, and then we went out to dinner together and not once talked about what happened on the field. Fans like to put their own personal feelings on the players as a way of vindicating what their feeling. What I can tell you, is that you have no clue in this area. Its certainly possible that some players don't like one another. But it seldom has anything to do with how they play together. The old Oakland A's that won all the championships used to have regualr fights in the locker room, but then went out on to the field and kicked the other teams a$$.

Rondo isn't the most pleasant player to play with. Michael Jordan was a very demanding player on the court, and wasn't liked by all his teammates. Kobe hardly socializes with any of his teammates. Yet all these guys are winners. From all accounts that I've read, Cousins on the court and off the court are two different people. When you think about it, Cousins seldom has issues with any of his teammates during the game, unles its about a missed rotation. Most of his issues are with players on the opposing team, or with ref's. I think JT has had more arguments with Thomas than just about any other player. Don't know what their dispute is about, but it happens on a regular basis and almost always at the defensive end of the floor.

 

[Glenn]

Robinson was one of those players that I had to talk myself into. You listen to all the hype, but then when you watch the games, you don't see what the hype is based on. If you end up drafting him, you hope the hype is right and your personal vision is wrong. My original opinion was that he could be a hustle type player in the Kenneth Faried mode at worse. Now if looks like that's at best. He certainly has all the physical gifts necessary to succeed. What I question is his BBIQ. And without that, he'll never be more than a bench player. Where the Robinson/McLemore comparisons don't fly is the fact that Robinson went to Kansas for three years, and McLemore only had one year. Give McLemore two more years of college and he's a much better player.

I agree with Bricky, that if your going to wait for a player to develop, you better be waiting for a star, or something close to it. The problem is, the players projections are based on somewhat abstract subjective opinions. Now Bricky has his opinion, based on what he's seen so far, and I have mine. And of course, we both think we're right. Therein lies the problem. Who is right? At what point do you cut the ties? How patient should you be? Remember, Dirk Nowitzki was almost booed off the floor his rookie year in Dallas. Steve Nash didn't look anything like Steve Nash his rookie year. Kobe averaged around 12 or so minutes coming off the bench his rookie year. The Lebron James of the world are the exception. Jermaine O'Neal sat at the end of the bench in Portland for three years before he ever did anything resembling what he was to become.

Those players were certainly worth waiting on. Of course I could name even more players that failed. Some that were out of the league entirely, or just bounced around from team to team. So its a gamble. Hopefully an educated gamble, but any way you cut it, the percentages of your ending up with a star are stacked against you. Sometimes, you just have to be lucky.

How do you predict the future? I suppose after a year you get a clue. After you have declared to the world that you got the player you wanted you may not be impartial. I wonder if the FO of any team will try to get feedback from disinterested parties? I have faith in Ben and certainly can't put my finger on why. I know he is no TRob but I NEVER saw what was so hot about TRob other than an NBA ready body. All I saw in college was a guy running about aimlessly. I never saw Ben in college. My inclination would be not to give up prematurely. There is always room at the end of the bench and it might as well be filled by Ben as some 5-10 year pro who will never have anything to offer.

 

[Chubbs]

Article on tanking, specifically in regards to Philly but also in a general sense. Philly has a real chance of losing their final 36 games.

"And that’s why this tanking bullcrap matters. When 36 percent of your league is willfully throwing away the last five weeks of an 82-game season, you’re doing something wrong. Stern stuck his head in the sand. He pretended self-sabotage wasn’t a recurring danger, just like he pretended the broken officiating system was fine … and the always-disappointing All-Star Saturday was fine … and the annoying 2-3-2 Finals format was fine … and the stunning lack of minority league executives at every CBA bargaining table was fine … and the embarrassing Chris Paul trade veto was fine … and The Decision was fine … and the Maloofs destroying basketball in Sacramento to the point that the fans had to revolt was fine … and Clay Bennett extorting Seattle for a new arena and ultimately hijacking the team was fine … and the league owning the New Orleans franchise as it landed the no. 1 overall pick was fine … and starting off Silver’s commissioner transition by hovering over him for an extra eight months was fine.
I don’t think Adam Silver wants to stick his head in the sand. I really don’t. But conquering the self-sabotage corner is a good place for him to start. This isn’t tanking. Nobody is throwing games. They’re just crapting on them. And they’re doing it because it’s the smartest thing to do. Don’t pretend this is fine. It’s not.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nba-bag-volume-2-10-steps-to-tanking-perfection/


With the way the Kings FO destroyed the backcourt to the point it's at, hard to say we are not very clearly tanking right now. Are we as blatant as Philly? No. But it's not that far off with how badly we killed the backcourt. And we killed it. It's arguable that we don't have a single NBA starting quality guard on the whole roster. And we made moves with no intent on fixing that situation, but to actually make it worse. Which we have done. That, people, is self sabotage. Maybe that's the term we should use.

 

[peacelate]

Article on tanking, specifically in regards to Philly but also in a general sense. Philly has a real chance of losing their final 36 games.

"And that’s why this tanking bullpoopoo matters. When 36 percent of your league is willfully throwing away the last five weeks of an 82-game season, you’re doing something wrong. Stern stuck his head in the sand. He pretended self-sabotage wasn’t a recurring danger, just like he pretended the broken officiating system was fine … and the always-disappointing All-Star Saturday was fine … and the annoying 2-3-2 Finals format was fine … and the stunning lack of minority league executives at every CBA bargaining table was fine … and the embarrassing Chris Paul trade veto was fine … and The Decision was fine … and the Maloofs destroying basketball in Sacramento to the point that the fans had to revolt was fine … and Clay Bennett extorting Seattle for a new arena and ultimately hijacking the team was fine … and the league owning the New Orleans franchise as it landed the no. 1 overall pick was fine … and starting off Silver’s commissioner transition by hovering over him for an extra eight months was fine.
I don’t think Adam Silver wants to stick his head in the sand. I really don’t. But conquering the self-sabotage corner is a good place for him to start. This isn’t tanking. Nobody is throwing games. They’re just poopooting on them. And they’re doing it because it’s the smartest thing to do. Don’t pretend this is fine. It’s not.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nba-bag-volume-2-10-steps-to-tanking-perfection/


With the way the Kings FO destroyed the backcourt to the point it's at, hard to say we are not very clearly tanking right now. Are we as blatant as Philly? No. But it's not that far off with how badly we killed the backcourt. And we killed it. It's arguable that we don't have a single NBA starting quality guard on the whole roster. And we made moves with no intent on fixing that situation, but to actually make it worse. Which we have done. That, people, is self sabotage. Maybe that's the term we should use.

The team is nearly .500 when Gay, IT and cousins all play. How is that tanking?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

With the way the Kings FO destroyed the backcourt to the point it's at, hard to say we are not very clearly tanking right now...

I disagree with this, one hundred percent. I don't think it's hard to say that we are not tanking in any way, shape or form, and invite you to re-read funkykingston's previous words:

Teams that are tanking/rebuilding don't take on a bunch of salary, sign players in their 30's to long term deals or give up draft picks (even 2nd rounders) for other veterans with years left on their contracts.

 

[Glenn]

I disagree with this, one hundred percent. I don't think it's hard to say that we are not tanking in any way, shape or form, and invite you to re-read funkykingston's previous words:

We may not be tanking but I am not impressed with PDA's moves. With the guards we have, we have little chance of doing well for the rest of the season unless Orlando Johnson does very fine and IT continues to play over 40 minutes per game in order to cover for the fact we don't have enough SGs.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I certainly hope that my post was not interpreted as an endorsement of D'Alessandro's moves. Just because I don't think he's tanking doesn't mean I think he's doing a good job.

 

[Glenn]

I certainly hope that my post was not interpreted as an endorsement of D'Alessandro's moves. Just because I don't think he's tanking doesn't mean I think he's doing a good job.

I my have lost track of the discussion but I fail to know how anyone can tell if PDA is tanking or just doing a bad job. The result is the same.

 

[bajaden]

How do you predict the future? I suppose after a year you get a clue. After you have declared to the world that you got the player you wanted you may not be impartial. I wonder if the FO of any team will try to get feedback from disinterested parties? I have faith in Ben and certainly can't put my finger on why. I know he is no TRob but I NEVER saw what was so hot about TRob other than an NBA ready body. All I saw in college was a guy running about aimlessly. I never saw Ben in college. My inclination would be not to give up prematurely. There is always room at the end of the bench and it might as well be filled by Ben as some 5-10 year pro who will never have anything to offer.

You can't predict the future. That's why its a gamble. But if you do your homework and see a player play enough games, along with learning as much as you can about his work habits etc. you can reduce the risk of that gamble. There are some players that you watch, and you have no doubts about his being a good player. The only question then is, how good? I saw Ben play quite a bit in college. Probably 20 or so games counting tournament play. And how he plays in the NBA is different than how he played at Kansas. As I said in an earlier post, the knock on Ben at Kansas was lack of aggression at times. He had a tendency to plant himself in a corner and wait for the ball a little to much for my taste.

I know the Kings have pushed him to be a lot more aggressive, and I think his problem now is that he only knows one speed. Warp speed! Obviously his ballhandling needs to improve. Sometimes I think he lacks confidence in his ballhandling, and as a result, when he see's an open lane, he goes a hundred miles an hour to get to the basket for fear of someone getting his hand on the ball. Thus he lays the ball up at a hundred miles an hour and misses. Once he learns to go at eighty miles an hour, he'll start to get better results.

 

[bajaden]

I my have lost track of the discussion but I fail to know how anyone can tell if PDA is tanking or just doing a bad job. The result is the same.

Are those my only choices?

 

[Glenn]

Are those my only choices?

Hell no. Whatcha got on your mind?

 

[VF21]

I my have lost track of the discussion but I fail to know how anyone can tell if PDA is tanking or just doing a bad job. The result is the same.

I think you and I will just have to agree that we totally disagree on our assessments of PDA thus far. I think each move is calculated much like chess. It may not look like much right now, but we cannot see the whole board. I don't think he's tanking; I do think he's committed to rebuilding and getting rid of all the garbage left around by the previous GM. And I also think he's taking advantage of whatever offers he gets to move some of said refuse.

 

[Glenn]

I think you and I will just have to agree that we totally disagree on our assessments of PDA thus far. I think each move is calculated much like chess. It may not look like much right now, but we cannot see the whole board. I don't think he's tanking; I do think he's committed to rebuilding and getting rid of all the garbage left around by the previous GM. And I also think he's taking advantage of whatever offers he gets to move some of said refuse.

He is acquiring athleticism with no specific position in mind. Our team is very athletic. That's not awful but it's bot a team. Perhaps I am making too much of the fact that IT absolutely has to play 40 minutes a game with what we have. I don't like that.

At some point we are going to have to quit referring back to the old administration as there is almost no one left who is a holdover. The players are PDA's.

I can't agree to disagree when you are so wrong.

 

[Chubbs]

I disagree with this, one hundred percent. I don't think it's hard to say that we are not tanking in any way, shape or form, and invite you to re-read funkykingston's previous words:

If you can explain why we gave up 2 of our top 3 guards for nothing other than Reggie Evans I'd love to hear other explanations. Those two moves were designed to lose a lot of these last games. I think the overall chaos has that goal also. Evans may jump some in the pf rotation, but he doesn't bring any wins. Dumping our guards takes care of there being any chance of a successful last few weeks.

I agree with funkykingston. Tanking teams don't do that. So PDA is very confused and is doing some weird blend. It's a very fluid situation. Certainly not a classic tank. Specifically though, the last two moves (cutting Jimmer, and trading MT) are tanking moves. Absolutely. The rest? Some were just clearing out money. They seem to be spending years 1 and 2 tearing it down but keeping cousins. I really don't think it's till year 3 that they'll even pretend they expect to win.

Tanking is good strategy. The commish agrees. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I just think people are wrong to deny it's happening on some level.

We went for a HR at the deadline by most accounts. We failed, so we went to plan b and intentionally weakened the team for the stretch run. If we'd hit a HR, then no need to tank. We didn't hit a HR.

The .500 thing? That doesn't make the playoffs. This team as it is now won't make the playoffs next season. .500 in a very limited number of games where we had 100% health among our best guys, I mean, if that's the best we have it's not good enough. Not in the west. And we are about capped out, so how do we get any better? Draft pick is the answer, especially since we just offered probably all we are willing to part with and still couldn't land a star. The other way to get that star? Lose. A lot. Thus clearing out our guards. Jimmer/MT may have been worth a win or two. Maybe not. Why take the chance though? So dump em for players we don't need. Which we did.

Just my opinion based on what I'm seeing. If development is the goal, it could be argued Ben would be better off just sitting the rest of the season and focusing on the summer league. Is this good for him? Floundering out there? I wonder. I guess time will tell. Right now, he's one of the worst defenders in the league (as he loses his man for a layup). MT was nothing special, but he was slightly better defensively.

I don't understand why the idea of tanking is so offensive to people.

 

[Glenn]

If you can explain why we gave up 2 of our top 3 guards for nothing other than Reggie Evans I'd love to hear other explanations. Those two moves were designed to lose a lot of these last games. I think the overall chaos has that goal also. Evans may jump some in the pf rotation, but he doesn't bring any wins. Dumping our guards takes care of there being any chance of a successful last few weeks.

I agree with funkykingston. Tanking teams don't do that. So PDA is very confused and is doing some weird blend. It's a very fluid situation. Certainly not a classic tank. Specifically though, the last two moves (cutting Jimmer, and trading MT) are tanking moves. Absolutely. The rest? Some were just clearing out money. They seem to be spending years 1 and 2 tearing it down but keeping cousins. I really don't think it's till year 3 that they'll even pretend they expect to win.

Tanking is good strategy. The commish agrees. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I just think people are wrong to deny it's happening on some level.

We went for a HR at the deadline by most accounts. We failed, so we went to plan b and intentionally weakened the team for the stretch run. If we'd hit a HR, then no need to tank. We didn't hit a HR.

The .500 thing? That doesn't make the playoffs. This team as it is now won't make the playoffs next season. .500 in a very limited number of games where we had 100% health among our best guys, I mean, if that's the best we have it's not good enough. Not in the west. And we are about capped out, so how do we get any better? Draft pick is the answer, especially since we just offered probably all we are willing to part with and still couldn't land a star. The other way to get that star? Lose. A lot. Thus clearing out our guards. Jimmer/MT may have been worth a win or two. Maybe not. Why take the chance though? So dump em for players we don't need. Which we did.

Just my opinion based on what I'm seeing. If development is the goal, it could be argued Ben would be better off just sitting the rest of the season and focusing on the summer league. Is this good for him? Floundering out there? I wonder. I guess time will tell. Right now, he's one of the worst defenders in the league (as he loses his man for a layup). MT was nothing special, but he was slightly better defensively.

I don't understand why the idea of tanking is so offensive to people.

I think most people see a tank as players and coaches willfully dogging it. I never have meant that. My version of a tank comes by the FO structuring a team that cannot win.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

If you can explain why we gave up 2 of our top 3 guards for nothing other than Reggie Evans I'd love to hear other explanations. Those two moves were designed to lose a lot of these last games. I think the overall chaos has that goal also. Evans may jump some in the pf rotation, but he doesn't bring any wins. Dumping our guards takes care of there being any chance of a successful last few weeks.

I do not agree with this. I think that the New Orleans trade was a miscalculation on D'Alessandro's part, and the Brooklyn trade was meant to be addition (chemistry) by subtraction (Thornton).

I don't understand why the idea of tanking is so offensive to people.

... And I don't understand how you can't.