strange story

[C Diddy]

Umm, a person who knows something about how the body works. The brain doesn't have any pain receptors, thus it's impossible to feel pain in your brain.

Fact is, not all puppies are adopted. By killing these 3 he made it possible for 3 others to be adopted. The hypocrisy is troubling, considering the man is being charged with cruelty to animals.

Thinking a dog is somehow "better" than a cow and thus its okay to shoot a cow in the head, but not a dog is like saying white people are better than black people and so its okay to use them for slavery. I mean, I don't have any black people in my family... they aren't "loved ones" to me, right?

I won't even get started on the "out of sight, out of mind" comment...

That is one warped interpretation of my argument. The value of an animal vs. a person is not being disputed or even contemplated here, at least not by me.

 

[C Diddy]

I've heard that argument before, which doesn't address it's inhamane-ness, which is the argument against shooting puppies. Inhumane should be inhumane, no matter what we do with the corpse.

To me it does. To each their own. I place a higher value on household animals in terms of how they should be treated. Flame me as you will, Jsin.

In my mind, one should be either against the unnecessary killing of all animals, or OK with the killing of any animal (as long as it's done as painlessly as possible). An animal is an animal and I don't think one should be given preferential tratment above others, whatever that standard should be.

Killing farm animals is necessary for consumption, unless you are a vegetarian/vegan, while killing puppies isn't necessary in any case. If people could manage the pet population better, there would be no need to have to kill animals in the shelters. I don't believe in killing any animal at all and I have never taken any animals to the shelter.

And though your out-of-sight, out-of-mind point is honest and likely true, it's not right. If people are getting shot somewhere else, we still care, right?

That's apples an oranges. Of course I care about people getting shot. I'm applying the "out of sight, out of mind" logic strictly for advocating for killing cows vs puppies. People and animals are different.

 

[JSin]

That is one warped interpretation of my argument. The value of an animal vs. a person is not being disputed or even contemplated here, at least not by me.

Maybe it's warped because you didn't understand it. You argue that killing a cow is okay, but not a dog because the dog is somehow superior. This is the same arguement people who believed in slavery used... and latter for women. I'm not comparing animals with humans, I'm comparing the different types of animals (species) with different types of people (races). It's a valid comparison if you think about it.

 

[C Diddy]

Maybe it's warped because you didn't understand it. You argue that killing a cow is okay, but not a dog because the dog is somehow superior. This is the same arguement people who believed in slavery used... and latter for women. I'm not comparing animals with humans, I'm comparing the different types of animals (species) with different types of people (races). It's a valid comparison if you think about it.

That analogy is so off base its not even funny. Saying I value a dog above a cow in terms of how I feel about killing it in no way puts me near the belief in slavery or that I am against women's rights. Making that analogy towards me is somewhat insulting. It seems you are trying to trap me in my own opinion for your own personal amusement and it really isn't cool.

Seriously

 

[JSin]

That analogy is so off base its not even funny. Saying I value a dog above a cow in terms of how I feel about killing it in no way puts me near the belief in slavery or that I am against women's rights. Making that analogy towards me is somewhat insulting. It seems you are trying to trap me in my own opinion for your own personal amusement and it really isn't cool.

Seriously

I'm sorry, I was trying to imply that you were racist or anything, I was just comparing that way of thinking. Racism is the one clear example I could think of. I thought it was a great example. My bad if you took offense.

 

[C Diddy]

I'm sorry, I was trying to imply that you were racist or anything, I was just comparing that way of thinking. Racism is the one clear example I could think of. I thought it was a great example. My bad if you took offense.

Apology accepted. I can't figure out where you were going with that argument without thinking you were implying that I was sexist or racist though, maybe you can rephrase?

 

[monk]

I still don't underatand your logic, but I acept it. I still think it's because dogs are cute and loyal and cows aren't, which doesn't merit unequal treatment. There are people I like more than others, but I still have to treat them equally.

Anyway, back to this example: What did this guy do that veternarians don't do every day? They both kill unwanted dogs as painlessly as possible. This guy is facing charges, vets aren't. That's not fair.

Sure we can debate the humane-ness of lethal injection fersus shotgun to the head, but what's the point? They are both painless. In fact, it could be argued that the stress of putting the dog in a box, taking him to a strange place to be poked by a stranger is less humane that a scratch behind the ear and blast.

 

[C Diddy]

I still don't underatand your logic, but I acept it. I still think it's because dogs are cute and loyal and cows aren't, which doesn't merit unequal treatment. There are people I like more than others, but I still have to treat them equally.

It's more complex than that, but its obvious that I haven't explained succintly enough for everyone to understand. What I don't understand, is why people keep using the people argument to dispute advocating for more humane treatment of household pets versus farm animals

Anyway, back to this example: What did this guy do that veternarians don't do every day? They both kill unwanted dogs as painlessly as possible. This guy is facing charges, vets aren't. That's not fair.

Sure we can debate the humane-ness of lethal injection fersus shotgun to the head, but what's the point? They are both painless. In fact, it could be argued that the stress of putting the dog in a box, taking him to a strange place to be poked by a stranger is less humane that a scratch behind the ear and blast.

I'll agree that putting a dog in a box is stressful too. I'm against taking an animal to the pound/shelter, but if you have no other choice, I'd prefer you did that and give the animal a minimal chance rather then taking its life in your backyard.

 

[uolj]

I don't think the slavery or people analogies are very good at all, actually. If you want to consider a dog and a cow to be comparable because they are both animals, somebody else can consider a cow and a human to be comparable - as they are also two different species. So the analogy would also have to apply to anybody who treats humans better than cows.

Besides, the cows are being killed for food, the puppies are not. Why can't a distinction be made?

 

[HndsmCelt]

Hmmm interesting responses. So have any ofyou folks ever been to a slaughter house, or do you have any idea how the meat you eat was killed?

 

[Rockmeister]

How is this any different than taking the animals to have them put to sleep. It's just cheaper. He wasn't beating his dogs, it's not abuse. He was putting them to sleep.

Your kidding right? C'mon Jsin, do you really think what the jerk did was humane?

There are other ways the jerk could have gotten rid of the puppies....friends, family, or a rescue group. And I wonder if he really did try to find a home for the pups.

 

[JSin]

I don't think the slavery or people analogies are very good at all, actually. If you want to consider a dog and a cow to be comparable because they are both animals, somebody else can consider a cow and a human to be comparable - as they are also two different species. So the analogy would also have to apply to anybody who treats humans better than cows.

Besides, the cows are being killed for food, the puppies are not. Why can't a distinction be made?

Not quite. Humans and animals are very different. Cows and dogs aren't.

 

[JSin]

Your kidding right? C'mon Jsin, do you really think what the jerk did was humane?

There are other ways the jerk could have gotten rid of the puppies....friends, family, or a rescue group. And I wonder if he really did try to find a home for the pups.

Your making alot of assumptions. Nothing in the article indicated normal abuse behavior. What about it was inhumane? Is killing a cow by shooting it in the head humane? How about cutting a chicken's head off?

 

[monk]

Your making alot of assumptions. Nothing in the article indicated normal abuse behavior. What about it was inhumane? Is killing a cow by shooting it in the head humane? How about cutting a chicken's head off?

This summarizes my view pretty well. By killing cattle by shooting them in the head, we as a society have established and accept that it's a humane method of killing an animal. The next logical step is to say that it's also a humane way to kill a dog.

We can talk about whether or not it's OK to kill a dog, but the method of killing it wasn't inhumane. And if what this man did was not inhumane, he shouldn't be facing charges. If a vet can put a dog down in a humane way, why can't a farmer?

 

[kingskings!]

Your making alot of assumptions. Nothing in the article indicated normal abuse behavior. What about it was inhumane? Is killing a cow by shooting it in the head humane? How about cutting a chicken's head off?

To me the difference is this: The slaughter of food animals leads back to a time when the animals death made the difference between life and death for the humans who slaughtered them and ate their flesh.

We don't live that closely to the Earth anymore to witness that valid example first hand. But it still holds true.

The killing/abandoning of puppies/kittens is a convenience.

FWIW, I hate this dumb *** for doing it, but it was far more humane than ditching the puppies in a rural area to starve, be killed by wild animals, or be taken in by soft hearted rural dwellers. Not that those were his only options, but those are some far less humane actions taken by "normal" people on a daily basis.

Don't flame me for saying it, please?

FWIW2, I have a neighbor who had a dog she spent no time with, the dog was basically left outside 24/7 on her own in all kinds of weather (I have no idea why people like that have dogs). The dog barked and howled constantly, and tore out the fences-front, back and side- and when neighbors, including me, complained, instead of spending time with this dog she had wanted she drove the animal to the pound and put her in an after hours lock box. I was appalled.

Yes, I tried to spend time with the dog. I fed her and petted her and encouraged her to be good. What happened? She tore the fences down more frequently to get into the yard where she had "love" and ended up ravaging our yard while we were at work, repeatedly(cuz she didn't get attention at our house while we were gone). It was awful....oh well, I'm not sure where I'm going with this except I feel bad that we didn't offer to just take the damn dog and be good to her (except we didn't want that kind of responsibility at that time in our lives which is why we didn't already have one of our own choosing).

Too many people have pets when they really shouldn't. I guess that's my second point.

 

[kingskings!]

Hmmm interesting responses. So have any ofyou folks ever been to a slaughter house, or do you have any idea how the meat you eat was killed?

I've never been to a slaughterhouse (I don't live in Fresno but does it count that I've visited Manteca?-kidding! sorry!!!) and I have actively tried to avoid knowing too much about how meat, eggs, and sausage come to be available in the grocery stores. (Because it's all disturbing and, well, gross).

The Mad Cow Disease episode in Oregon last December changed all that for me. Now I find that I don't really trust our food chain at all. We're too far removed from the decisions that are made and the government is no better at policing agri-business political contributors than they are in policing their oil contributors. (Ok, MAYBE slightly better in the agri-business arena).

I would suspect that a rural/farming family head of 100+ years ago would burn, rather than butcher, a stumbling sick cow..or one that had already died "recently". But in today's agri-business environment, all is fair until you get caught...to be fair, it's probably been that way for a very long time. What's happening around the world today is just an accumulation of bad practices that have gone on for too long and have dire consequences for us all. Wow, I could really pull this off track by going into other areas of bad practices such as the AIDS epidemic in Africa which is being ignored to the overuse of antibiotics due to the rise of HMO's vs. doctors who can make their own independent decisions without total focus on the bottom line of the corporations they work for. But what do I know...wow...sorry for pulling this thread off track.

Now returning you to our regularly scheduled program of puppy abuse debate.

 

[JSin]

But in today's agri-business environment, all is fair until you get caught...to be fair, it's probably been that way for a very long time. What's happening around the world today is just an accumulation of bad practices that have gone on for too long and have dire consequences for us all.

Your being extrememly harsh. Mistakes happen everywhere. I wouldn't think twice about eating a steak. I've had 1,000 in my life without ever getting sick, to me their doing a damn fine job. Just because there was one scare doesn't mean the people are negligent, cut them some slack.

 

[JSin]

To me the difference is this: The slaughter of food animals leads back to a time when the animals death made the difference between life and death for the humans who slaughtered them and ate their flesh.

We don't live that closely to the Earth anymore to witness that valid example first hand. But it still holds true.

The killing/abandoning of puppies/kittens is a convenience.

I have trouble believing that if this guy ate the puppies afterwards, everyone would think it's okay.

 

[ILV]

There are accepted norms in any given society, what this guy did was not one of them in our society, eating the dog wouldn't change that. Surely it can't be that hard to see that this was not an accepted norm? These norms help ensure against anarchy and reflect our societies values, you may not agree with all of them but the majority of folks most likely will abide by them.

 

[HndsmCelt]

There are accepted norms in any given society, what this guy did was not one of them in our society, eating the dog wouldn't change that. Surely it can't be that hard to see that this was not an accepted norm? These norms help ensure against anarchy and reflect our societies values, you may not agree with all of them but the majority of folks most likely will abide by them.

Actualy the point is that in this case the soclai norms are CLEARLY irrational and inconsistant. We condem the shooting of some animals, prefering a leathel injection that in no way gaurentees a "more human" death. We apalud and encourage the slaughter of thousands of animals through blunt force trauma, bullets to the head and exsangtuination as part of our social norm. Sory folks you can hold on to old values and traditions all you want but please don't lie to yourselves about it. Having raised a lot of animals as both pets and live stock I can tell you first had the only real differance between them is how we treat them. People amke pets of pigs and and live stock of dogs. This is NOT about any real difference in animals just OUR differing attitudes twords them.

 

[*Serbprincess*]

when i read the article i was really upset!
Horrible
I was confused why people are ok with what he did . JSin made a good point tho:

¨I have trouble believing that if this guy ate the puppies afterwards, everyone would think it's okay.¨

Even though i know that if he did eat it, i would be even more upset, so it makes me question why we all think diferently towards different animals. but i still think its upsetting that he killed puppies probably because i have a dog, and to think that someone could have killed it and not given it a chance is sad!

 

[JSin]

There are accepted norms in any given society, what this guy did was not one of them in our society, eating the dog wouldn't change that. Surely it can't be that hard to see that this was not an accepted norm? These norms help ensure against anarchy and reflect our societies values, you may not agree with all of them but the majority of folks most likely will abide by them.

That was my point earlier with the slavery comment, just because something is accepted as a "norm" doesn't make it right.

 

[uolj]

Not quite. Humans and animals are very different. Cows and dogs aren't.

just because something is accepted as a "norm" doesn't make it right.

Just because the accepted "norm" is to believe that humans and animals are more different than cows and dogs, doesn't make it right.

 

[doone]

Look JSin, let's put it this way. When we kill a cow, there's a purpose, its to feed us, we needed the cow killed so that we can survive, the cow was killed because it needed to die, there was no choice. The cow was farmed for that exact purpose. A puppy is totally different, apples and oranges, the puppies were about to be killed not because they had to, but because of gross negligence on the owner's part, the puppy was about to be killed because it was not wanted. Would you kill a baby that was born because you didn't want it? No of course not. And when it comes down to it humans ARE animals, didn't you learn anything in science? If you advocate killing a puppy or even a dog by gunshot because you did not want it, then I guess you would be ok with murder as well. Same concept, killing to get rid of someone/something, it just isn't right. There's a distinction between killing to survive and killing purely to end a life, whether it be humans or other animals.

 

[monk]

Look JSin, let's put it this way. When we kill a cow, there's a purpose, its to feed us, we needed the cow killed so that we can survive, the cow was killed because it needed to die, there was no choice. The cow was farmed for that exact purpose. A puppy is totally different, apples and oranges, the puppies were about to be killed not because they had to, but because of gross negligence on the owner's part, the puppy was about to be killed because it was not wanted. Would you kill a baby that was born because you didn't want it? No of course not. And when it comes down to it humans ARE animals, didn't you learn anything in science? If you advocate killing a puppy or even a dog by gunshot because you did not want it, then I guess you would be ok with murder as well. Same concept, killing to get rid of someone/something, it just isn't right. There's a distinction between killing to survive and killing purely to end a life, whether it be humans or other animals.

If you believe what you just posted, you would also support a ban on vetrinarians putting dogs down?

 

[monk]

People > other animals

 

[JSin]

Just because the accepted "norm" is to believe that humans and animals are more different than cows and dogs, doesn't make it right.

It's not the norm, animals and humans are different, we can shoot them with a gun. We are the top of the food chain. Do you really believe killing a human is the same as killing a puppy? Your stretching that one a little too far.

Let's try and keep this somewhat logical.

I'm still waiting for the line on what's okay to kill and what's not... basically any animal who is bred to be eaten can be killed, but not the other animals. So when you kill that rat in your house, animal abuse. Or do you breed rats for food where your from?

 

[uolj]

It's not the norm, animals and humans are different, we can shoot them with a gun. We are the top of the food chain. Do you really believe killing a human is the same as killing a puppy? Your stretching that one a little too far.

Let's try and keep this somewhat logical.

I totally understand your desire to get people to look past societal norms and figure out why one thing is ok but not another. I think it is a great idea. I am just doing the same to your argument. Saying that it's ok to kill cows because we eat them is at least as good of a distinction as saying humans are at the top of the food chain.

I actually don't believe that killing a human is the same as killing a puppy. That is not because I think they are intrinsically different, but because I place my own values and morals into the equation. That is all other people are doing when they draw the line between cows and puppies.

 

[doone]

If you believe what you just posted, you would also support a ban on vetrinarians putting dogs down?

No, I am saying that if it absolutely unavoidable to have the dog put down, then by all means do it, but don't do it before you've given the dogs a chance to live. This guy obviously hasn't.

 

[ILV]

That was my point earlier with the slavery comment, just because something is accepted as a "norm" doesn't make it right.

So Jsin

Not wanting a puppy shot and not given a chance to be adopted is equal to thinking slavery is okay......you are not arguing logically now.