strange story
- Thread starter Prophetess
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To me it does. To each their own. I place a higher value on household animals in terms of how they should be treated. Flame me as you will, Jsin.
Killing farm animals is necessary for consumption, unless you are a vegetarian/vegan, while killing puppies isn't necessary in any case. If people could manage the pet population better, there would be no need to have to kill animals in the shelters. I don't believe in killing any animal at all and I have never taken any animals to the shelter.
That's apples an oranges. Of course I care about people getting shot. I'm applying the "out of sight, out of mind" logic strictly for advocating for killing cows vs puppies. People and animals are different.
Killing farm animals is necessary for consumption, unless you are a vegetarian/vegan, while killing puppies isn't necessary in any case. If people could manage the pet population better, there would be no need to have to kill animals in the shelters. I don't believe in killing any animal at all and I have never taken any animals to the shelter.
That's apples an oranges. Of course I care about people getting shot. I'm applying the "out of sight, out of mind" logic strictly for advocating for killing cows vs puppies. People and animals are different.
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Maybe it's warped because you didn't understand it. You argue that killing a cow is okay, but not a dog because the dog is somehow superior. This is the same arguement people who believed in slavery used... and latter for women. I'm not comparing animals with humans, I'm comparing the different types of animals (species) with different types of people (races). It's a valid comparison if you think about it.
That analogy is so off base its not even funny. Saying I value a dog above a cow in terms of how I feel about killing it in no way puts me near the belief in slavery or that I am against women's rights. Making that analogy towards me is somewhat insulting. It seems you are trying to trap me in my own opinion for your own personal amusement and it really isn't cool.
Seriously
Seriously
I still don't underatand your logic, but I acept it. I still think it's because dogs are cute and loyal and cows aren't, which doesn't merit unequal treatment. There are people I like more than others, but I still have to treat them equally.
Anyway, back to this example: What did this guy do that veternarians don't do every day? They both kill unwanted dogs as painlessly as possible. This guy is facing charges, vets aren't. That's not fair.
Sure we can debate the humane-ness of lethal injection fersus shotgun to the head, but what's the point? They are both painless. In fact, it could be argued that the stress of putting the dog in a box, taking him to a strange place to be poked by a stranger is less humane that a scratch behind the ear and blast.
Anyway, back to this example: What did this guy do that veternarians don't do every day? They both kill unwanted dogs as painlessly as possible. This guy is facing charges, vets aren't. That's not fair.
Sure we can debate the humane-ness of lethal injection fersus shotgun to the head, but what's the point? They are both painless. In fact, it could be argued that the stress of putting the dog in a box, taking him to a strange place to be poked by a stranger is less humane that a scratch behind the ear and blast.
It's more complex than that, but its obvious that I haven't explained succintly enough for everyone to understand. What I don't understand, is why people keep using the people argument to dispute advocating for more humane treatment of household pets versus farm animals
I'll agree that putting a dog in a box is stressful too. I'm against taking an animal to the pound/shelter, but if you have no other choice, I'd prefer you did that and give the animal a minimal chance rather then taking its life in your backyard.
I'll agree that putting a dog in a box is stressful too. I'm against taking an animal to the pound/shelter, but if you have no other choice, I'd prefer you did that and give the animal a minimal chance rather then taking its life in your backyard.
I don't think the slavery or people analogies are very good at all, actually. If you want to consider a dog and a cow to be comparable because they are both animals, somebody else can consider a cow and a human to be comparable - as they are also two different species. So the analogy would also have to apply to anybody who treats humans better than cows.
Besides, the cows are being killed for food, the puppies are not. Why can't a distinction be made?
Besides, the cows are being killed for food, the puppies are not. Why can't a distinction be made?
This summarizes my view pretty well. By killing cattle by shooting them in the head, we as a society have established and accept that it's a humane method of killing an animal. The next logical step is to say that it's also a humane way to kill a dog.
We can talk about whether or not it's OK to kill a dog, but the method of killing it wasn't inhumane. And if what this man did was not inhumane, he shouldn't be facing charges. If a vet can put a dog down in a humane way, why can't a farmer?
We can talk about whether or not it's OK to kill a dog, but the method of killing it wasn't inhumane. And if what this man did was not inhumane, he shouldn't be facing charges. If a vet can put a dog down in a humane way, why can't a farmer?
To me the difference is this: The slaughter of food animals leads back to a time when the animals death made the difference between life and death for the humans who slaughtered them and ate their flesh.
We don't live that closely to the Earth anymore to witness that valid example first hand. But it still holds true.
The killing/abandoning of puppies/kittens is a convenience.
FWIW, I hate this dumb *** for doing it, but it was far more humane than ditching the puppies in a rural area to starve, be killed by wild animals, or be taken in by soft hearted rural dwellers. Not that those were his only options, but those are some far less humane actions taken by "normal" people on a daily basis.
Don't flame me for saying it, please?
FWIW2, I have a neighbor who had a dog she spent no time with, the dog was basically left outside 24/7 on her own in all kinds of weather (I have no idea why people like that have dogs). The dog barked and howled constantly, and tore out the fences-front, back and side- and when neighbors, including me, complained, instead of spending time with this dog she had wanted she drove the animal to the pound and put her in an after hours lock box. I was appalled.
Yes, I tried to spend time with the dog. I fed her and petted her and encouraged her to be good. What happened? She tore the fences down more frequently to get into the yard where she had "love" and ended up ravaging our yard while we were at work, repeatedly(cuz she didn't get attention at our house while we were gone). It was awful....oh well, I'm not sure where I'm going with this except I feel bad that we didn't offer to just take the damn dog and be good to her (except we didn't want that kind of responsibility at that time in our lives which is why we didn't already have one of our own choosing).
Too many people have pets when they really shouldn't. I guess that's my second point.
We don't live that closely to the Earth anymore to witness that valid example first hand. But it still holds true.
The killing/abandoning of puppies/kittens is a convenience.
FWIW, I hate this dumb *** for doing it, but it was far more humane than ditching the puppies in a rural area to starve, be killed by wild animals, or be taken in by soft hearted rural dwellers. Not that those were his only options, but those are some far less humane actions taken by "normal" people on a daily basis.
Don't flame me for saying it, please?
FWIW2, I have a neighbor who had a dog she spent no time with, the dog was basically left outside 24/7 on her own in all kinds of weather (I have no idea why people like that have dogs). The dog barked and howled constantly, and tore out the fences-front, back and side- and when neighbors, including me, complained, instead of spending time with this dog she had wanted she drove the animal to the pound and put her in an after hours lock box. I was appalled.
Yes, I tried to spend time with the dog. I fed her and petted her and encouraged her to be good. What happened? She tore the fences down more frequently to get into the yard where she had "love" and ended up ravaging our yard while we were at work, repeatedly(cuz she didn't get attention at our house while we were gone). It was awful....oh well, I'm not sure where I'm going with this except I feel bad that we didn't offer to just take the damn dog and be good to her (except we didn't want that kind of responsibility at that time in our lives which is why we didn't already have one of our own choosing).
Too many people have pets when they really shouldn't. I guess that's my second point.
I've never been to a slaughterhouse (I don't live in Fresno but does it count that I've visited Manteca?-kidding! sorry!!!) and I have actively tried to avoid knowing too much about how meat, eggs, and sausage come to be available in the grocery stores. (Because it's all disturbing and, well, gross).
The Mad Cow Disease episode in Oregon last December changed all that for me. Now I find that I don't really trust our food chain at all. We're too far removed from the decisions that are made and the government is no better at policing agri-business political contributors than they are in policing their oil contributors. (Ok, MAYBE slightly better in the agri-business arena).
I would suspect that a rural/farming family head of 100+ years ago would burn, rather than butcher, a stumbling sick cow..or one that had already died "recently". But in today's agri-business environment, all is fair until you get caught...to be fair, it's probably been that way for a very long time. What's happening around the world today is just an accumulation of bad practices that have gone on for too long and have dire consequences for us all. Wow, I could really pull this off track by going into other areas of bad practices such as the AIDS epidemic in Africa which is being ignored to the overuse of antibiotics due to the rise of HMO's vs. doctors who can make their own independent decisions without total focus on the bottom line of the corporations they work for. But what do I know...wow...sorry for pulling this thread off track.
Now returning you to our regularly scheduled program of puppy abuse debate.
The Mad Cow Disease episode in Oregon last December changed all that for me. Now I find that I don't really trust our food chain at all. We're too far removed from the decisions that are made and the government is no better at policing agri-business political contributors than they are in policing their oil contributors. (Ok, MAYBE slightly better in the agri-business arena).
I would suspect that a rural/farming family head of 100+ years ago would burn, rather than butcher, a stumbling sick cow..or one that had already died "recently". But in today's agri-business environment, all is fair until you get caught...to be fair, it's probably been that way for a very long time. What's happening around the world today is just an accumulation of bad practices that have gone on for too long and have dire consequences for us all. Wow, I could really pull this off track by going into other areas of bad practices such as the AIDS epidemic in Africa which is being ignored to the overuse of antibiotics due to the rise of HMO's vs. doctors who can make their own independent decisions without total focus on the bottom line of the corporations they work for. But what do I know...wow...sorry for pulling this thread off track.
Now returning you to our regularly scheduled program of puppy abuse debate.
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There are accepted norms in any given society, what this guy did was not one of them in our society, eating the dog wouldn't change that. Surely it can't be that hard to see that this was not an accepted norm? These norms help ensure against anarchy and reflect our societies values, you may not agree with all of them but the majority of folks most likely will abide by them.
Actualy the point is that in this case the soclai norms are CLEARLY irrational and inconsistant. We condem the shooting of some animals, prefering a leathel injection that in no way gaurentees a "more human" death. We apalud and encourage the slaughter of thousands of animals through blunt force trauma, bullets to the head and exsangtuination as part of our social norm. Sory folks you can hold on to old values and traditions all you want but please don't lie to yourselves about it. Having raised a lot of animals as both pets and live stock I can tell you first had the only real differance between them is how we treat them. People amke pets of pigs and and live stock of dogs. This is NOT about any real difference in animals just OUR differing attitudes twords them.
when i read the article i was really upset!
Horrible
I was confused why people are ok with what he did . JSin made a good point tho:
¨I have trouble believing that if this guy ate the puppies afterwards, everyone would think it's okay.¨
Even though i know that if he did eat it, i would be even more upset, so it makes me question why we all think diferently towards different animals. but i still think its upsetting that he killed puppies probably because i have a dog, and to think that someone could have killed it and not given it a chance is sad!
Horrible
I was confused why people are ok with what he did . JSin made a good point tho:
¨I have trouble believing that if this guy ate the puppies afterwards, everyone would think it's okay.¨
Even though i know that if he did eat it, i would be even more upset, so it makes me question why we all think diferently towards different animals. but i still think its upsetting that he killed puppies probably because i have a dog, and to think that someone could have killed it and not given it a chance is sad!
Look JSin, let's put it this way. When we kill a cow, there's a purpose, its to feed us, we needed the cow killed so that we can survive, the cow was killed because it needed to die, there was no choice. The cow was farmed for that exact purpose. A puppy is totally different, apples and oranges, the puppies were about to be killed not because they had to, but because of gross negligence on the owner's part, the puppy was about to be killed because it was not wanted. Would you kill a baby that was born because you didn't want it? No of course not. And when it comes down to it humans ARE animals, didn't you learn anything in science? If you advocate killing a puppy or even a dog by gunshot because you did not want it, then I guess you would be ok with murder as well. Same concept, killing to get rid of someone/something, it just isn't right. There's a distinction between killing to survive and killing purely to end a life, whether it be humans or other animals.
uolj said:
Just because the accepted "norm" is to believe that humans and animals are more different than cows and dogs, doesn't make it right.
Let's try and keep this somewhat logical.
I'm still waiting for the line on what's okay to kill and what's not... basically any animal who is bred to be eaten can be killed, but not the other animals. So when you kill that rat in your house, animal abuse. Or do you breed rats for food where your from?
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I totally understand your desire to get people to look past societal norms and figure out why one thing is ok but not another. I think it is a great idea. I am just doing the same to your argument. Saying that it's ok to kill cows because we eat them is at least as good of a distinction as saying humans are at the top of the food chain.
I actually don't believe that killing a human is the same as killing a puppy. That is not because I think they are intrinsically different, but because I place my own values and morals into the equation. That is all other people are doing when they draw the line between cows and puppies.
I actually don't believe that killing a human is the same as killing a puppy. That is not because I think they are intrinsically different, but because I place my own values and morals into the equation. That is all other people are doing when they draw the line between cows and puppies.