Starting PF?

[rainmaker]

First off, this thread isn't meant to rip on Landry. He is what he is, and a solid/important contributor to this team. I was ecstatic when we traded Kev for him, and love the fact he's on this team. But, and it is a big but, he's simply not even approaching an acceptable level of rebounding. 3 vs NJ. 3 vs Cle. 4 tonight. 10 in the last 3 the games combined. Simply, that won't cut it. It's an ongoing problem, and one which hurts us from the jump.

I have to believe our lack of rebounding from the 4 spot, and failure to establish ourselves on the boards to start games, is one of the main reasons we're falling behind early. I love what Landry brings to the table, but as the team matures and progresses, we won't get to where we want to be with our starting pf rebounding at such a dismal rate.

Now that Dallyis back in the lineup, I would like to see JT given a shot at starting at pf. I have thought for a while that a Cousins/JT starting duo would fit best together, with Landry's offensive spark and Dally's defense and rebounding being perfect coming off the bench, and I haven't seen anything which changes my opinion. It's not that I want to relegate landry to the bench, but I feel 6th man is his natural and most effective position in this league.

If he was an average rebounder, I would say ride it out until JT or Hassan are ready to start. But his rebounding is so poor, especially to start games, that I think the team would be better bringing his offense off the bench, and the team will gain more than it loses by bringing him off the bench. That doesn't mean I want JT finishing games. I still like Landry's offense in there at the end. But we're getting killed early in games, and Landry's rebounding, or lack there of, is a big part of that.

Now I could break down Landry's rebounding numbers even more, like the fact Dally grabbed 10 more in 10 fewer minutes, or he was outrebounded by the opposing pf 19-4. But that would give the impression to some that I'm saying this because of one game. It's a re-occuring, ongoing problem that hasn't improved a bit.

 

[kingsboi]

I'm a fan of him coming off the bench myself. I wouldn't mind JT getting the start and Carl coming in for offense off the bench. However, Westphal views him as a starter and I think that's what he's going to remain for this season. It will be interesting to see what the Kings decide to do with him in the deadline or summer, that's for sure.

 

[jcwkings]

if landry starts then dalembert is the perfect C to play with him. landry and cousins doesn't work because they're both iso post players and neither is a good shotblocker, at least yet in the case of cousins. this really hurts our defense. It either has to be Cousins and thompson with landry being the 6th man instant O, or Landry and Dalembert with Cousins as the 6th man. imo if we want to do important things this year our lineup should be

beno/tyreke
tyreke/garcia
casspi/greene/garcia
landry/jt/cousins
Dalmebert/cousins

 

[vikinginferno]

With the way Westphal does lineups, I wouldn't be surprised to see Jackson get a start or two in an attempt to light a fire under Landry's booty. Rebounding is a lot to do with effort and if Landry sets his mind to rebounding, he can grab at least 7-8 a game.

 

[Showtime]

I really don't know why so many people are having trouble grasping exactly why Landry isn't getting 8-12 boards a game. It's right in front of your face. It's not that he can't, because he's already proven he can play PF and C in Houston. It's that instead of being the guy in the paint fighting for position to get the rebound from a missed jumpshot, he's the one shooting the 17 footer. Look at Jackson. He's exactly in the position that Landry was in at Houston: living in the paint, finishing plays as a garbage man, and not being asked to play a major offensive role. But, when Landry suddenly was asked not to rebound and defend the paint, but to be a focal point in the offense, set screens on the perimeter, be a high post player that can hit the face up jumper, he no longer can be that guy. The problem isn't Landry, it's the role he's asked to play and the position that puts him in regarding his potential to rebound the basketball. Stop blaming Landry, and open your eyes.

Point blank: if you want Landry to be the same guy he was in Houston, which was a physical banger who grabbed boards in traffic, then he's got to live in the paint, not 17 feet out.

 

[swisshh]

Landry's offensive position doesn't impact his defensive rebounding, which is what Evans was killing the Kings with.

Start either Dalembert/Landry or Cousins/JT.

The first half blowouts are due to defense, some of which falls on the guard giving up too much penetration, but Cousins is inexperienced and Landry not exactly intimidating. I think starting Sammy would allow Cousins to come in and be instant offense and not have to worry about foul trouble as much.

After that, you need to change up the offense so you don't have three guys under the basket after a shot attempt on offense, leading to 3 on 2 breaks the other way. All the guard penetration and board crashing is leading to transition gimme baskets.

 

[Dr. Spaceman]

I really don't know why so many people are having trouble grasping exactly why Landry isn't getting 8-12 boards a game. It's right in front of your face. It's not that he can't, because he's already proven he can play PF and C in Houston. It's that instead of being the guy in the paint fighting for position to get the rebound from a missed jumpshot, he's the one shooting the 17 footer. Look at Jackson. He's exactly in the position that Landry was in at Houston: living in the paint, finishing plays as a garbage man, and not being asked to play a major offensive role. But, when Landry suddenly was asked not to rebound and defend the paint, but to be a focal point in the offense, set screens on the perimeter, be a high post player that can hit the face up jumper, he no longer can be that guy. The problem isn't Landry, it's the role he's asked to play and the position that puts him in regarding his potential to rebound the basketball. Stop blaming Landry, and open your eyes.

Point blank: if you want Landry to be the same guy he was in Houston, which was a physical banger who grabbed boards in traffic, then he's got to live in the paint, not 17 feet out.

Isn't that part of the problem anyway, though? It's an obvious sign that he doesn't mesh well with Cousins on offense, and the defense isn't there no matter who's out there with him. With Dalembert out there, he can occupy the low post as the main option down there with Sammy D playing garbage man. You're obviously not going to focus on Landry on offense when Cousins is out there, so until Westphal realizes how bad of a fit Cousins and Landry are on both ends, this will remain a problem.

He should either start Dalembert over Cousins (though I'm not sure how that would affect Cousins mentally, seeing how he's been playing decently as a starter) or bring Landry off the bench where he's a better fit as the main low post threat, which is what so many here are calling for.

 

[rainmaker]

I really don't know why so many people are having trouble grasping exactly why Landry isn't getting 8-12 boards a game. It's right in front of your face. It's not that he can't, because he's already proven he can play PF and C in Houston. It's that instead of being the guy in the paint fighting for position to get the rebound from a missed jumpshot, he's the one shooting the 17 footer. Look at Jackson. He's exactly in the position that Landry was in at Houston: living in the paint, finishing plays as a garbage man, and not being asked to play a major offensive role. But, when Landry suddenly was asked not to rebound and defend the paint, but to be a focal point in the offense, set screens on the perimeter, be a high post player that can hit the face up jumper, he no longer can be that guy. The problem isn't Landry, it's the role he's asked to play and the position that puts him in regarding his potential to rebound the basketball. Stop blaming Landry, and open your eyes.

There's a big difference between 8-12 rebs per, and 3,3,4 in the last 3 games. Don't distort the facts to make a point. Are you trying to say it's the coaches fault for putting him the the starting lineup, and expecting him to fill the role as starting pf? I suggested playing him as a 6th man, IMO, his natural role.

So, because he shoots 17 footers, and is an integral part of the offense, he's not responsible for rebounding the ball? You can't be serious. I can't believe our starting pf grabs 10 rebs in the last 3 games combined, and you find zero fault on his end, but instead find fault in the fact he was asked to fill a role which requires rebounding in the first place. The 17 ft jumpers only come on offense, he should be grabbing more rebs on the defensive end as well. Offensive rebounding has never been his problem.

 

[Sluggah]

I'd like to see some dalembert at pf with DC at C

 

[sauce-26]

So your saying start Thompson instead of Landry? Thompson cant get out of his own way, and is confused when the ref calls him for an obvious foul. Im not too happy w/ the rebound totals myself, but that would just be silly to start thompson. In the future I would like to see someone who can score like landry and rebound at a 8 or so clip every night but until then keep landry where he is.

 

[jcwkings]

after what he did tonight, we should sign reggie evans to a max contract and have him be dmc's garbage man.

 

[cuad]

I'm still waiting for the DeMarcus Cousins - Samuel Dalembert starting lineup with Jason Thompson and Landry as the back up--to use Hubie Brown's term--front court people.

Darnell Jackson and Whiteside will compensate for the inevitable foul trouble and JT suckage.

 

[Gary]

I would like to see them start Cousins at PF and Dally at C.. I know Westphal said Cousins is a C but no reason they can't try..

C-Dalembert-Cousins-Jackson-Thompson
PF-Cousins-Landry-Thompson-Jackson
SF-Casspi-Garcia-Greene
G-Beno-Garcia-Head
G-Evans-Head-Garcia

 

[SacTownKid]

I'm still waiting for the DeMarcus Cousins - Samuel Dalembert starting lineup with Jason Thompson and Landry as the back up--to use Hubie Brown's term--front court people.

Darnell Jackson and Whiteside will compensate for the inevitable foul trouble and JT suckage.

Same here. Kind of wish Bynum was healthy for the Lakers because that might have been our quickest shot at seeing it.

 

[Prince_XY]

I would like to see them start Cousins at PF and Dally at C.. I know Westphal said Cousins is a C but no reason they can't try..

C-Dalembert-Cousins-Jackson-Thompson
PF-Cousins-Landry-Thompson-Jackson
SF-Casspi-Garcia-Greene
G-Beno-Garcia-Head
G-Evans-Head-Garcia

It might not work this early. Dalembert looks like not 100% physically fit/healthy yet and Cousins is still on that stage of acclimatizing in the NBA. But it is a very good idea trying to start both at the same time. They complement each other very well. Besides, I believe both will emerge as our best BIGS amongst our BIGS and we need the best players to start the game.

 

[Prince_XY]

The first half blowouts are due to defense, some of which falls on the guard giving up too much penetration, but Cousins is inexperienced and Landry not exactly intimidating. I think starting Sammy would allow Cousins to come in and be instant offense and not have to worry about foul trouble as much.

After that, you need to change up the offense so you don't have three guys under the basket after a shot attempt on offense, leading to 3 on 2 breaks the other way. All the guard penetration and board crashing is leading to transition gimme baskets.

I've had the luxury of time watching the 4 games at least twice on League Pass and I fully agree with you. Our guards (especially Beno and to a little extent Evans) were just too slow and had given up too much penetrations. The fact that Cousins is inexperienced and Landry is not exactly intimidating compounded the problem even more.

 

[Showtime]

Landry's offensive position doesn't impact his defensive rebounding, which is what Evans was killing the Kings with.

Again, I clearly stated his role in the offense. The Kings are making him a SF/PF combo forward. That clearly impacts his position on both ends of the court. So, instead of being a C/PF living in the paint, he's guarding more athletic and mobile guys which brings up further out.

 

[Showtime]

Isn't that part of the problem anyway, though? It's an obvious sign that he doesn't mesh well with Cousins on offense, and the defense isn't there no matter who's out there with him. With Dalembert out there, he can occupy the low post as the main option down there with Sammy D playing garbage man. You're obviously not going to focus on Landry on offense when Cousins is out there, so until Westphal realizes how bad of a fit Cousins and Landry are on both ends, this will remain a problem.

I agree. If the kings want Landry to be an offensive weapon, then they must realize that DMC also is offensively minded. It would be a better fit to have Sammy D and Landry together, or Cousins and JT/Jackson.

 

[Showtime]

There's a big difference between 8-12 rebs per, and 3,3,4 in the last 3 games. Don't distort the facts to make a point.

I'm not distorting any facts. As a reserve in Houston his first two years, he was rebounding at a rate of 8-11 boards per 36 minutes of basketball as a reserve. The kings were hoping they could extend that production rate to a starting role where he could actually play 36 minutes instead of coming in for 15-20 minutes and beasting.

Are you trying to say it's the coaches fault for putting him the the starting lineup, and expecting him to fill the role as starting pf?

That's a very, very simplified explanation, but yes. They are trying to make him, as explaned by Paul, a combo forward and offensive weapon. They are bringing him further and futher away from the basket on offense, and on defense, since he's sometimes guarding smaller forwards instead of bigger frontline players, he's often on the opposition's SF/PF instead of on their C/PF. He could be doing what Jackson is doing, if the team put him in the exact same position: reserve garbage man that lives in the paint. But he's not, because the team is putting him in a totally different position and role than before.

So, because he shoots 17 footers, and is an integral part of the offense, he's not responsible for rebounding the ball? You can't be serious.

If you don't understand the impact of his change in position and roles that he's asked to fill compared to previous ones which were successful around the basket on both ends, then I don't have anything else I can tell you. I suggest you watch more basketball. When Yao was out, the frontline of Scola, Landry, and Hayes were still part of great Rocket defenses, despite their size disadvantages.

 

[pshn80]

Last night Landry won and Reggie lost. If I'm not mistaken all our bigs played last night and contributed. Our rotations seem to be working well. Let's not change anything yet. And before we have to, the coaches will. Nothing like a little success to keep a fan like me happy.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm not distorting any facts. As a reserve in Houston his first two years, he was rebounding at a rate of 8-11 boards per 36 minutes of basketball as a reserve. The kings were hoping they could extend that production rate to a starting role where he could actually play 36 minutes instead of coming in for 15-20 minutes and beasting.
If you don't understand the impact of his change in position and roles that he's asked to fill compared to previous ones which were successful around the basket on both ends, then I don't have anything else I can tell you. I suggest you watch more basketball. When Yao was out, the frontline of Scola, Landry, and Hayes were still part of great Rocket defenses, despite their size disadvantages.

The Rockets defense sucked last year, people just missed that fact out of traditional expectations. And where Landry could beast on the boards was when he was a power SF not a twerpy PF.

And Landry's weenieness on the boards cannot be attributed to role. Certianly not his defenisve boarding weeniness. He has just gotten weaker and weaker every year now, and desperately needs to get back to it, unless he's lost his athleticism at 26, in which case he needs to come off the bench. If he could grab 7 a game he's still be right there as maybe the weakest rebounding starting PF in the league, but you might be able to survive it. But this 3, 3, 4 stuff has got to stop. Those aren't even optional numbers for a PF. That is Charlie Villanueva stuff, Vlad Rad stuff. Weenies and 3pt chuckers, neither of which Landry is.

 

[ElRey]

I would like to see them start Cousins at PF and Dally at C.. I know Westphal said Cousins is a C but no reason they can't try..

C-Dalembert-Cousins-Jackson-Thompson
PF-Cousins-Landry-Thompson-Jackson
SF-Casspi-Garcia-Greene
G-Beno-Garcia-Head
G-Evans-Head-Garcia

This really depends on the matchup. Cousins at power forward would get eaten up by quick PFs such as Stoudemire, Jeff Green, Rashard Lewis, etc

 

[Kingster]

First off, this thread isn't meant to rip on Landry. He is what he is, and a solid/important contributor to this team. I was ecstatic when we traded Kev for him, and love the fact he's on this team. But, and it is a big but, he's simply not even approaching an acceptable level of rebounding. 3 vs NJ. 3 vs Cle. 4 tonight. 10 in the last 3 the games combined. Simply, that won't cut it. It's an ongoing problem, and one which hurts us from the jump.

I have to believe our lack of rebounding from the 4 spot, and failure to establish ourselves on the boards to start games, is one of the main reasons we're falling behind early. I love what Landry brings to the table, but as the team matures and progresses, we won't get to where we want to be with our starting pf rebounding at such a dismal rate.

Now that Dallyis back in the lineup, I would like to see JT given a shot at starting at pf. I have thought for a while that a Cousins/JT starting duo would fit best together, with Landry's offensive spark and Dally's defense and rebounding being perfect coming off the bench, and I haven't seen anything which changes my opinion. It's not that I want to relegate landry to the bench, but I feel 6th man is his natural and most effective position in this league.

If he was an average rebounder, I would say ride it out until JT or Hassan are ready to start. But his rebounding is so poor, especially to start games, that I think the team would be better bringing his offense off the bench, and the team will gain more than it loses by bringing him off the bench. That doesn't mean I want JT finishing games. I still like Landry's offense in there at the end. But we're getting killed early in games, and Landry's rebounding, or lack there of, is a big part of that.

Now I could break down Landry's rebounding numbers even more, like the fact Dally grabbed 10 more in 10 fewer minutes, or he was outrebounded by the opposing pf 19-4. But that would give the impression to some that I'm saying this because of one game. It's a re-occuring, ongoing problem that hasn't improved a bit.

Landry and his rebounding is only a part of the reason for our slow start, a small part. Cousins is a non-entity on defense at the beginning of these games, embarrassingly so. And Tyreke has just been coasting at the beginning of the games, as has Landry. Incredibly poor transition D isn't being caused primarily by Landry's poor rebounding; it's a team "effort".

 

[Kingster]

I'm not distorting any facts. As a reserve in Houston his first two years, he was rebounding at a rate of 8-11 boards per 36 minutes of basketball as a reserve. The kings were hoping they could extend that production rate to a starting role where he could actually play 36 minutes instead of coming in for 15-20 minutes and beasting.



That's a very, very simplified explanation, but yes. They are trying to make him, as explaned by Paul, a combo forward and offensive weapon. They are bringing him further and futher away from the basket on offense, and on defense, since he's sometimes guarding smaller forwards instead of bigger frontline players, he's often on the opposition's SF/PF instead of on their C/PF. He could be doing what Jackson is doing, if the team put him in the exact same position: reserve garbage man that lives in the paint. But he's not, because the team is putting him in a totally different position and role than before.



If you don't understand the impact of his change in position and roles that he's asked to fill compared to previous ones which were successful around the basket on both ends, then I don't have anything else I can tell you. I suggest you watch more basketball. When Yao was out, the frontline of Scola, Landry, and Hayes were still part of great Rocket defenses, despite their size disadvantages.

Interesting and fair point. I'll be checking this out when I watch games in the future to see where he is on the court when the ball is shot. Given the point, it seems to beg the question: Should he be playing as much outside as he is?

 

[OptimusRhyme]

I think we should leave the lineups how they are for now.. i meen we are winning so why change it. I think we just need to bring dalembert into the game earlier. Ideally Landry would fit the 6th man role perfectly but right now hes our best offensive Big and he deserves/needs to start. I wouldnt mind seeing a Dalmebert/Cousins combo tho in the future.

 

[bajaden]

I really don't know why so many people are having trouble grasping exactly why Landry isn't getting 8-12 boards a game. It's right in front of your face. It's not that he can't, because he's already proven he can play PF and C in Houston. It's that instead of being the guy in the paint fighting for position to get the rebound from a missed jumpshot, he's the one shooting the 17 footer. Look at Jackson. He's exactly in the position that Landry was in at Houston: living in the paint, finishing plays as a garbage man, and not being asked to play a major offensive role. But, when Landry suddenly was asked not to rebound and defend the paint, but to be a focal point in the offense, set screens on the perimeter, be a high post player that can hit the face up jumper, he no longer can be that guy. The problem isn't Landry, it's the role he's asked to play and the position that puts him in regarding his potential to rebound the basketball. Stop blaming Landry, and open your eyes.

Point blank: if you want Landry to be the same guy he was in Houston, which was a physical banger who grabbed boards in traffic, then he's got to live in the paint, not 17 feet out.

Only one flaw in your theory. Landry has never been a good rebounder. As a matter of fact, he had his best rebounding year last year after being traded to the Kings, when he averaged 6.3 boards a game. In Houston he averaged 5.0 boards his first year and 5.3 boards his second year. At the moment he's averaging 5.4 boards a game, which is right on his career average. Landry is what he is, and what he is, is not that bad. But I doubt he'll ever be a great rebounder.

 

[rainmaker]

Landry and his rebounding is only a part of the reason for our slow start, a small part. Cousins is a non-entity on defense at the beginning of these games, embarrassingly so. And Tyreke has just been coasting at the beginning of the games, as has Landry. Incredibly poor transition D isn't being caused primarily by Landry's poor rebounding; it's a team "effort".

I agree his rebounding is only a part of the reason for slow starts. But his lack of rebounding really stands out right now, and heavily contributes to our slow starts. Are others at fault? Of course. But Landry is a leader on this team, and one of our vets. Cousins has played 4 games, he gets somewhat of a pass. Tyreke, even when coasting at the begining of games, is outrebounding our starting pf. Transition def has been horrible, but this thread isn't about every reason for our slow starts. It's about Carl either deciding to rebound like a starting pf, or putting him back in his more natural role as a 6th man.

 

[rainmaker]

I'm not distorting any facts. As a reserve in Houston his first two years, he was rebounding at a rate of 8-11 boards per 36 minutes of basketball as a reserve. The kings were hoping they could extend that production rate to a starting role where he could actually play 36 minutes instead of coming in for 15-20 minutes and beasting.



That's a very, very simplified explanation, but yes. They are trying to make him, as explaned by Paul, a combo forward and offensive weapon. They are bringing him further and futher away from the basket on offense, and on defense, since he's sometimes guarding smaller forwards instead of bigger frontline players, he's often on the opposition's SF/PF instead of on their C/PF. He could be doing what Jackson is doing, if the team put him in the exact same position: reserve garbage man that lives in the paint. But he's not, because the team is putting him in a totally different position and role than before.



If you don't understand the impact of his change in position and roles that he's asked to fill compared to previous ones which were successful around the basket on both ends, then I don't have anything else I can tell you. I suggest you watch more basketball. When Yao was out, the frontline of Scola, Landry, and Hayes were still part of great Rocket defenses, despite their size disadvantages.

Honestly, I couldn't care less about his rebounding rate per 36 as a reserve in Houston. That stat proves to be meaningless because he reb rate is much worse as a starter. Playing away from the basket on offense has nothing to do with def rebounding. Plus, off rebounding was always one of his strengths.

He's not, nor has he ever been asked to guard sf's on a regular, or even semi-regular basis. So your point of him being pulled away from the basket in a different role really isn't related. Make excuses for him all you like. There is absolutely no reason why Carl can't grab at least 5 def rebs per game, and another one or two on the offensive end.

 

[bajaden]

So your saying start Thompson instead of Landry? Thompson cant get out of his own way, and is confused when the ref calls him for an obvious foul. Im not too happy w/ the rebound totals myself, but that would just be silly to start thompson. In the future I would like to see someone who can score like landry and rebound at a 8 or so clip every night but until then keep landry where he is.

Personally I don't care who starts at PF as long as it contributes to winning games. JT is not without his flaws, but one thing is certain. He's a much better rebounder than Landry and he's a better overall defender than Landry. Yes he has gotten into foul trouble too often, and yes he has trouble scoring around the basket. But despite that he did average over 12 pts a game, and it was my hope that he'll get a chance to put it all together this year so the Kings know one way or the other just who they have in JT. Perhaps who starts should be dictated by who the opponent is. Landry has a hard time guarding guys like Aldridge in Portland or Gasol when Bynum is playing at center. They simple shoot over him the way Bargnani did last night. I'm sorry, the minute they decided to have Cousins guard Evans in an effort to keep him out of foul trouble, I would have had Thompson in there guarding Bargnani. Landry simply isn't tall enough to guard some of these guys. Plus, Landry is just a pittiful help, or weakside defender.

There were countless times in the game last night where we got beat on the perimiter and were left with only Cousins defending the basket, sometimes with his back to the player going to the basket. Later in the game when JT was in the game, he was able to cut off the penetrater and keep him from the basket. My point being that JT is a much better help defender with quicker feet. Last night in the first quarter our defense looked like a seive. When Jackson and JT came into the game, suddenly our defense immediately got better, and there was less penetration to the basket.

At the moment I don't think there's a perfect answer. If you want better rebounding and defense in the first quarter, you'll probably have start JT. But if your willing to give up some defense and rebounding for scoring, then your better off with Landry. Maybe in the long term Whiteside is the answer, but in the short term, well, hell, maybe give Jackson a shot. He can score some and he plays tough defense, and seems to know how to do it without fouling.

 

[Showtime]

Only one flaw in your theory. Landry has never been a good rebounder. As a matter of fact, he had his best rebounding year last year after being traded to the Kings, when he averaged 6.3 boards a game. In Houston he averaged 5.0 boards his first year and 5.3 boards his second year. At the moment he's averaging 5.4 boards a game, which is right on his career average. Landry is what he is, and what he is, is not that bad. But I doubt he'll ever be a great rebounder.

You failed to read my post. I talked about rebounding RATE. As you pointed out, he was rebounding at around 5 or 6 a game...in 15-20 minutes as a reserve, not the starter minutes of well over 30 that he's been with the Kings. So, again, his rebounding production in Houston was that of around 8-11 per 36 minutes, which is well over his production with the kings. He's actually grabbing less rebounds in way more minutes with the Kings than he was in Houston.