Starting Lineup and minutes distribution?

K

KANGZZZ

Prospect
#1
#1
I feel like it will look like:
(remember that this is what the lineup will most likely look like, non necessarily what it should look like)

Fox / Cojo / Jeffries
Buddy / Haliburton / Woodard
Barnes / Robinson lll / Ramsey
Bagley / Bjelica / Parker
Holmes / Whiteside / Kaminsky

with minutes distribution (estimate of key players):

Guards:
Fox: 34
Buddy: 30
Haliburton: 18
Cojo: 14

Forwards:
Bagley: 32
Barnes: 30
Bjelica: 18
Robinson: 16

Centers:
Holmes: 30
Whiteside: 18

What do y'all think?
 
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G

Gguod

Bench
#3
#3
Monte should just cut Joseph if Walton plays him at all before Haliburton. Let the young players play and develope, trade away Buddy and other vets if/when they have any significant trade value and let Fox up his usage rate and learn how to be a dominant on ball creator.

I wouldnt be against keeping Buddy if he is used more like Redick/Duncan Robinson 2.0. The players I want to determine our succes next year are Bagley, Fox, Haliburton, Woodard, Ramsey and Jeffries. Get a high draft pick and build from there
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#4
#4
That's pretty close. Looks like you have Ramsey and Jeffries mixed up there. I think Haliburton will be closer to 25mpg if he plays at least average for what we think he could do.

I'm hoping Woodard performs well enough to take those minutes away from Robinson.
 
F

Folsomkingsfan

Starter
#5
#5
I'd rather see Jeffries get Cory Josephs minutes. There really is no reason to play Joseph and Jeffries looked like a guy that could give you solid minutes in limited time last season. Also feel like Haliburton should get more time as the season progresses. Whether that means cutting Buddy's minutes or experimenting with three guard lineups, he should be a priority this season.
 
upinsmoke

upinsmoke

All-Star
#13
#13
Not many things would be more entertaining than the camera zoomed in on Buddy as Haliburton starts on opening night. Never to early to start campaigning for the 6th man trophy. Maybe we could have mr. Telephone man by new edition playing in the background lol I'm a sick puppy I know.
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#14
#14
How I would probably do it (without seeing anyone in training camp) will likely be different than Luke's rotation so this isn't my prediction of what it will be and more about my rotation preference:

PG - Fox (34 min) / Haliburton (14 min)
SG - Hield (30 min) / Haliburton (10 min) / James (8 min)
SF - Barnes (18 min) / Jeffries (16 min) / Woodard (10 min) / James (4 min)
PF - Bagley (8 min) / Bjelica (28 min) / Barnes (12 min)
C - Holmes (28 min) / Bagley (20 min)

Fox - 34 min
Hield - 30 min
Barnes - 30 min
Bagley - 28 min
Holmes - 28 min
Bjelica - 28 min
Haliburton - 24 min
Jeffries - 16 min
James - 12 min
Woodard - 10 min
---------------------------
Joseph - 0 min
Guy - 0 min
Ramsey - 0 min
Robinson - 0 min
Parker - 0 min
Whiteside - 0 min
Kaminsky - 0 min



  • This gives Holmes & Bjelica a healthy amount of minutes (28 min) to hopefully showcase them for a trade at the deadline for future assets/picks.
  • Hield & Barnes at 30 min gives them substantial amount of time to showcase their value for a trade down the road as well (either deadline or later on).
  • Haliburton gets a substantial amount of min from the get-go and can potentially increase as the season goes on
  • Considering Jeffries & James only have this season and next season until they become a RFA, I'm prioritizing them in the rotation over guys like Ramsey & Woodard (although still getting 10 min) who have 3 more seasons before they become a RFA to see if we have any diamongs in the rough.
  • If Jeffries & James are struggling for a large part of the season, you could potentially look to give more minutes to Guy, Ramsey, & Woodward to see if we found any diamonds in the rough between these three.

Realistically, I would be surprised if Whiteside, Joseph, & Robinson combine for 0 min, but I think the rotation above would put us in a situation where it would maximize the value of our assets and hopefully be able to identify quickly if we have any keepers across our 2nd round picks (Jeffries, James, Guy, Woodard, & Ramsey).
 
J

joemama

Starter
#15
#15
twslam07, there is a lot to like there, and I agree that we should play the youth. I would love to see CoJo getting a goose egg on minutes. I felt CoJo and to a lesser extent Bogi were half-court oriented and slowed down the pace for a team that is better suited to run.

The way that the coach and GM talk about rotations, and actually having a shot-blocker, I wouldn't be surprised to see Whiteside get some burn. He did lead the entire NBA in blocked shots last year. Here are some examples:

Jason Jones @mr_jasonjones
"Monte and I were talking about, how much different our team looked last year once we added an Alex Len to the group, somebody that can really just sit in that paint and protect it for us." Walton on the addition of Hassan Whiteside. IMO, Whiteside is an upgrade in that role.

Jason Jones @mr_jasonjones
More quick takes: Walton wants to see a lineup w/ Whiteside and 4 small players where he can help cover for them defensively (similar to what Monte McNair mentioned about being aggressive on the perimeter). Likes the addition of athleticism, two-way players to the roster, too.

Jason Jones @mr_jasonjones
McNair said Hassan Whiteside's presence will allow the Kings to be more aggressive on the perimeter with him at the rim. McNair said the Kings can matchup with their bigs in multiple scenarios with the additions/returning players.
-----------------
Also, I do not envision James getting any burn except maybe in the G-league. He was outplayed by DQJ and is nowhere near GR III, who is an actual NBA talent.
 
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twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#16
#16
joemama said:
twslam07, there is a lot to like there, and I agree that we should play the youth. I would love to see CoJo getting a goose egg on minutes. I felt CoJo and to a lesser extent Bogi were half-court oriented and slowed down the pace for a team that is better suited to run.

The way that the coach and GM talk about rotations, and actually having a shot-blocker, I wouldn't be surprised to see Whiteside get some burn. He did lead the entire NBA in blocked shots last year. Here are some examples:

Jason Jones @mr_jasonjones
"Monte and I were talking about, how much different our team looked last year once we added an Alex Len to the group, somebody that can really just sit in that paint and protect it for us." Walton on the addition of Hassan Whiteside. IMO, Whiteside is an upgrade in that role.

Jason Jones @mr_jasonjones
More quick takes: Walton wants to see a lineup w/ Whiteside and 4 small players where he can help cover for them defensively (similar to what Monte McNair mentioned about being aggressive on the perimeter). Likes the addition of athleticism, two-way players to the roster, too.

Jason Jones @mr_jasonjones
McNair said Hassan Whiteside's presence will allow the Kings to be more aggressive on the perimeter with him at the rim. McNair said the Kings can matchup with their bigs in multiple scenarios with the additions/returning players.
-----------------
Also, I do not envision James getting any burn except maybe in the G-league. He was outplayed by DQJ and is nowhere near GR III, who is an actual NBA talent.
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Yeah, I saw those quotes as well. I get where they're coming from but it makes it hard for me to see where Bagley fits into all of this. He's really going to need to be a good/great shooter if they're wanting him to be a PF long term, and I'm not very confident in his shooting ability (hopes he proves me wrong though).

1606865560745.png
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#17
#17
joemama said:
James Ham @James_HamNBCS
Luke Walton did not commit to starting Buddy Hield. He will assess during camp and make decisions that he believes are best for the team overall.

Sean Cunningham @SeanCunningham
Kings coach Luke Walton says he's had a good relationship with Buddy Hield, declined to say if he's talked to him yet, but happy to have him as a huge part of the team.
Click to expand...

Walton putting any input on lineups is like buying a serial killer a set of kitchen knives for Christmas. Nothing good will come of it.
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#19
#19
kb02 said:
Translation: The Iowa State Rookie is going to start ahead of him by midseason anyway.
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If that's how it goes down then fine. The issue here is Walton is clearly one of those coaches that thinks he can tweak his stars out of lineups for defensive matchup purposes. That gets you things like that horrendous bubble showing and thinking Joseph on Doncic puts you in a better position to win night in night out.
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#20
#20
twslam07 said:
How I would probably do it (without seeing anyone in training camp) will likely be different than Luke's rotation so this isn't my prediction of what it will be and more about my rotation preference:

PG - Fox (34 min) / Haliburton (14 min)
SG - Hield (30 min) / Haliburton (10 min) / James (8 min)
SF - Barnes (18 min) / Jeffries (16 min) / Woodard (10 min) / James (4 min)
PF - Bagley (8 min) / Bjelica (28 min) / Barnes (12 min)
C - Holmes (28 min) / Bagley (20 min)

Fox - 34 min
Hield - 30 min
Barnes - 30 min
Bagley - 28 min
Holmes - 28 min
Bjelica - 28 min
Haliburton - 24 min
Jeffries - 16 min
James - 12 min
Woodard - 10 min
---------------------------
Joseph - 0 min
Guy - 0 min
Ramsey - 0 min
Robinson - 0 min
Parker - 0 min
Whiteside - 0 min
Kaminsky - 0 min



  • This gives Holmes & Bjelica a healthy amount of minutes (28 min) to hopefully showcase them for a trade at the deadline for future assets/picks.
  • Hield & Barnes at 30 min gives them substantial amount of time to showcase their value for a trade down the road as well (either deadline or later on).
  • Haliburton gets a substantial amount of min from the get-go and can potentially increase as the season goes on
  • Considering Jeffries & James only have this season and next season until they become a RFA, I'm prioritizing them in the rotation over guys like Ramsey & Woodard (although still getting 10 min) who have 3 more seasons before they become a RFA to see if we have any diamongs in the rough.
  • If Jeffries & James are struggling for a large part of the season, you could potentially look to give more minutes to Guy, Ramsey, & Woodward to see if we found any diamonds in the rough between these three.

Realistically, I would be surprised if Whiteside, Joseph, & Robinson combine for 0 min, but I think the rotation above would put us in a situation where it would maximize the value of our assets and hopefully be able to identify quickly if we have any keepers across our 2nd round picks (Jeffries, James, Guy, Woodard, & Ramsey).
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That's a little too platoonish. Personally I can't see James justifiably taking minutes away from Barnes, Buddy, and even Jeffries. If they want to go anywhere they have to start getting those 3-4 players that you give legit starters minutes to every night 34-36 mpg. The problem with deep rosters and a coach that wants to experiment game to game is that your team will never find the rhythm it needs on both ends. The missing part of the game that analytics sometimes miss is the chemistry. That's what gets you to the desirable destination in those analytics. Players like Whiteside can play single minute stretches and help but the rest of them need time. Bagley, Buddy, Fox, and Barnes is your true core right now with Haliburton as the burst of energy. If it flops the minutes will at least help with their productivity so that the return won't be diminished. There is clearly a talent/experience gap amongst 4-5 players on the roster and not playing your talent better result in serious winning because if not, well, that's how coaches in Waltons position find their way back to the smaller chair on the bench and for Walton this is likely his last go around at the big boys table.

The truth is Walton is in a job saving spot so I wouldn't be surprised to see him bury the rookies early as painful as that would be. Also, there's too many bodies in the front court. I don't trust the dude, I can totally see more traditional lineups than not. If he goes full platoon and plays everyone inconsistently then get that plug ready for pulling because this is going to go fast!
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#21
#21
SacTownKid said:
That's a little too platoonish. Personally I can't see James justifiably taking minutes away from Barnes, Buddy, and even Jeffries. If they want to go anywhere they have to start getting those 3-4 players that you give legit starters minutes to every night 34-36 mpg. The problem with deep rosters and a coach that wants to experiment game to game is that your team will never find the rhythm it needs on both ends. The missing part of the game that analytics sometimes miss is the chemistry. That's what gets you to the desirable destination in those analytics. Players like Whiteside can play single minute stretches and help but the rest of them need time. Bagley, Buddy, Fox, and Barnes is your true core right now with Haliburton as the burst of energy. If it flops the minutes will at least help with their productivity so that the return won't be diminished. There is clearly a talent/experience gap amongst 4-5 players on the roster and not playing your talent better result in serious winning because if not, well, that's how coaches in Waltons position find their way back to the smaller chair on the bench and for Walton this is likely his last go around at the big boys table.

The truth is Walton is in a job saving spot so I wouldn't be surprised to see him bury the rookies early as painful as that would be. Also, there's too many bodies in the front court. I don't trust the dude, I can totally see more traditional lineups than not. If he goes full platoon and plays everyone inconsistently then get that plug ready for pulling because this is going to go fast!
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That would certainly wind down to poor communication from the FO to the coach....which would ultimately mean another wasted year in late lottery purgatory.
 
funkykingston

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#22
#22
First off, I think there will be a trade before the season starts. If there are good deals out there for Bjelica or Holmes I think they'll be moved. But if we're assuming the Kings go into the season with this roster then here are my thoughts.

I have no idea what the minutes breakdown will look like but when everyone is healthy I fully expect a three man rotation at the guard spots with Fox and Hield starting and Haliburton getting all the minutes he can handle behind them. Any pair of those three should work out well on the court.

Joseph should hopefully only get minutes due to injury and Ramsey will likely start the year in Stockton but hopefully get sprinkled on more and more toward the end of the season. He pretty much has to play alongside Fox or Haliburton (or even Joseph) because he's not a playmaker at all at this stage.

I think Barnes and Bagley start but depending on who is playing well and the matchups I think GRIII, DQJ, Woodard, and possibly even James (if he makes the roster) will fight it out as backup wings/forwards. If Nemanja isn't dealt then he'll get some minutes at the 4 but he doesn't seem like McNair's type of player

Holmes showed he deserved to start but I wouldn't be surprised if they went with Whiteside in the Clint Capela role. Or again if Holmes is dealt. I love the guy but I don't think he's going to be re-signed if he has another season like this last one. Or at least not without committing significantly more cap space.

I also would hope we'd see some smaller lineups with Bagley as the lone big with Barnes, GRIII, Haliburton or Hield, and Fox.
 
J

joemama

Starter
#23
#23
Bogi's mins go to Haliburton
Len's mins go to Whiteside
Baze's mins go to Glen R. III
James' mins go to DQJ
The mins CoJo got on defensive assignments go to Woodard
Yogi's mins go to Ramsey
Giles mins go to Kaminsky
 
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jcassio

jcassio

Starter
#26
#26
G: Fox (34), Hield (34), Haliburton (28)
F: Barnes (32), Bagley (32), Robinson (16), Parker/Bjelica (16)
C: Holmes (24), Whiteside (24)
I don't think CoJo cracks the lineup until someone gets hurt or ill.
I want to see what Ramsey, Jeffries and Woodard have to offer, but they're going to have to wait for their opportunity.
If we decide that we're a better team with Barnes at Power Forward, or Bagley at Center, then things change quite a bit in terms of who gets the opportunties.
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#27
#27
Now that we've see the team play a bit, I think I'd go with a rotation of...

PG - Fox (34 min) / Haliburton (14 min)
SG - Hield (32 min) / Haliburton (16 min)
SF - Barnes (20 min) / Jeffries (14 min) / Woodard (14 min)
PF - Bagley (12 min) / Bjelica (24 min) / Barnes (12 min)
C - Holmes (30 min) / Bagley (18 min)

Fox - 34 min
Hield - 32 min
Barnes - 32 min
Bagley - 30 min
Holmes - 30 min
Haliburton - 30 min
Bjelica - 24 min
Jeffries - 14 min
Woodard - 14 min
Joseph - 0 min
Guy - 0 min
James - 0 min
Ramsey - 0 min
Robinson - 0 min
Parker - 0 min
Whiteside - 0 min
Metu - 0 min

The goal with this type of lineup would be to...
  • Highlight both Holmes & Bjelica to be flipped before or at the trade deadline for future assets
  • Highlight both Hield & Barnes to be flipped for future assets (could be at the deadline or in a future offseason)
  • Give Bagley a healthy does of minutes to either develop into a usable player or help tank our team's performance for a better 2021 1st round pick
  • Give both Jeffries & Woodard some minutes to help develop their games and see if we have a diamond in the rough (could also see James getting some of these minutes for the same purpose.
It hurts me to give Whiteside DNPs, but I favor the reasons above (Bagley and Holmes) vs. trying to showcase Whiteside to be flipped at the deadline for a minor asset.


If Holmes & Bjelica are flipped at the deadline for future picks, I'd like to see...
  • Whiteside & Bagley take over the C minutes (Bagley can still start at PF next to Whiteside at C)
  • Barnes would then get more minutes at PF but less at SF (he would still start games at SF though)
  • Jeffries, Woodard, & James would have the opportunity to get more minutes at SF/PF as well to help us further evaluate what we have in some of our secondary, young guys.
The rotation could look something like...

PG - Fox (34 min) / Haliburton (14 min)
SG - Hield (32 min) / Haliburton (16 min)
SF - Barnes (12 min) / Jeffries (12 min) / Woodard (12 min) / James (12 min)
PF - Bagley (12 min) / Barnes (20 min) / Jeffries (8 min) / Woodard (8 min)
C - Whiteside (28 min) / Bagley (20 min)

Fox - 34 min
Hield - 32 min
Barnes - 32 min
Bagley - 32 min
Haliburton - 30 min
Whiteside - 28 min
Jeffries - 20 min
Woodard - 20 min
James - 12 min
Joseph - 0 min
Guy - 0 min
Ramsey - 0 min
Robinson - 0 min
Parker - 0 min
Metu - 0 min

The minutes between Jeffries, Woodard, & James would really be up for grabs. I'd reassess the minute distribution between those three after seeing how they perform on the floor.

Let me be clear. This rotation doesn't maximize our chances of winning, but I think it maximizes our assets and future.
 
K

KANGZZZ

Prospect
#30
#30
twslam07 said:
Now that we've see the team play a bit, I think I'd go with a rotation of...

PG - Fox (34 min) / Haliburton (14 min)
SG - Hield (32 min) / Haliburton (16 min)
SF - Barnes (20 min) / Jeffries (14 min) / Woodard (14 min)
PF - Bagley (12 min) / Bjelica (24 min) / Barnes (12 min)
C - Holmes (30 min) / Bagley (18 min)

Fox - 34 min
Hield - 32 min
Barnes - 32 min
Bagley - 30 min
Holmes - 30 min
Haliburton - 30 min
Bjelica - 24 min
Jeffries - 14 min
Woodard - 14 min
Joseph - 0 min
Guy - 0 min
James - 0 min
Ramsey - 0 min
Robinson - 0 min
Parker - 0 min
Whiteside - 0 min
Metu - 0 min

The goal with this type of lineup would be to...
  • Highlight both Holmes & Bjelica to be flipped before or at the trade deadline for future assets
  • Highlight both Hield & Barnes to be flipped for future assets (could be at the deadline or in a future offseason)
  • Give Bagley a healthy does of minutes to either develop into a usable player or help tank our team's performance for a better 2021 1st round pick
  • Give both Jeffries & Woodard some minutes to help develop their games and see if we have a diamond in the rough (could also see James getting some of these minutes for the same purpose.
It hurts me to give Whiteside DNPs, but I favor the reasons above (Bagley and Holmes) vs. trying to showcase Whiteside to be flipped at the deadline for a minor asset.


If Holmes & Bjelica are flipped at the deadline for future picks, I'd like to see...
  • Whiteside & Bagley take over the C minutes (Bagley can still start at PF next to Whiteside at C)
  • Barnes would then get more minutes at PF but less at SF (he would still start games at SF though)
  • Jeffries, Woodard, & James would have the opportunity to get more minutes at SF/PF as well to help us further evaluate what we have in some of our secondary, young guys.
The rotation could look something like...

PG - Fox (34 min) / Haliburton (14 min)
SG - Hield (32 min) / Haliburton (16 min)
SF - Barnes (12 min) / Jeffries (12 min) / Woodard (12 min) / James (12 min)
PF - Bagley (12 min) / Barnes (20 min) / Jeffries (8 min) / Woodard (8 min)
C - Whiteside (28 min) / Bagley (20 min)

Fox - 34 min
Hield - 32 min
Barnes - 32 min
Bagley - 32 min
Haliburton - 30 min
Whiteside - 28 min
Jeffries - 20 min
Woodard - 20 min
James - 12 min
Joseph - 0 min
Guy - 0 min
Ramsey - 0 min
Robinson - 0 min
Parker - 0 min
Metu - 0 min

The minutes between Jeffries, Woodard, & James would really be up for grabs. I'd reassess the minute distribution between those three after seeing how they perform on the floor.

Let me be clear. This rotation doesn't maximize our chances of winning, but I think it maximizes our assets and future.
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I like most of what you said. However, I personally really like holmes long term because he provides lots of energy and efficiency down low and at free throw line (and ofc when he isn't in foul trouble). I also see the kings keeping barnes for the remaining of his contract because he is actually pretty good all around.

I think we trade beli, cojo, buddy by deadline and summer for an extra mid-round first round pick next year and draft Scottie barnes and Corey Kispert. Sign both lauri markanen and a defensive wing in the offseason.

Boom. Playoffs
 
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