Starting at the 3?

I still don't understand the relevance of the argument. Yes, the team was abysmal last year. Yes, Martin was on the team last year - but so were a number of other guys who have been replaced by nice new shiny models. And guys like Beno, who pretty much played like dog poop last year, are stepping up and giving 100%...

We've got a new coach, and it's clear there's a new attitude. So why would you continually bring up the record as proof that Martin isn't any good??????

I agree. Its just kind of funny that the 17-65 record is being placed on Martin's shoulders when:

a) It's agreed he's not a superstar. He was better with Artest and Bibby as his sidekicks. He was just the best scorer on our dismal team last year.

b) Beno. Cisco. Noc. Spencer. Donte. JT. K9.
Am I missing anyone? These were all a part of that team as well. And if I'm not mistaken, All are better this year aside from Cisco and Spencer.

c) We had Kenny Natt as our coach. I mean, Kobe would've bolted town if he was in that situation.
 
Does anyone on this forum actually like you Bricklayer?

Well, yes. Call him an aquired taste. Sometimes like a fine wine, and other times like a dark, bad tasting, too heavy, but hearty German beer. Bricky is opinionated. But when you stop and think about it, so are you. Its more of a difference of style. Hint number one. Don't take it personally. What you mistake for condesention, is really, heavily disquised passion. Bricky may criticize your idea, but he'll never criticize you. There is a fine line there, that in the heat of intellectual battle, can get lost in the dust.

Whether you believe it or not. Bricky was on his best behavior with you. Remember, you can always agree to disagree with a smiley face attached.

I always remember the famous words from the movie The Great Race. After dueling Tony Curtis with all sorts of assorted swords, the villain ran to the window and stated before jumping. " Sometimes its best to run away, and live to fight another day ". Its been my motto ever since.:D
 
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I always remember the famous words from the movie The Great Race. After dueling Tony Curtis with all sorts of assorted swords, the villain ran to the window and stated before jumping. " Sometimes its best to run away, and live to fight another day ". Its been my motto ever since.:D


Coward. :p


Is that where that quote is from BTW? I always assumed it was like Sun Tzu or somebody.
 
Donte Greene - Startin' at the 3

Tyreke Evans - Jammin' on the 1

Cosby Show reference, anyone? Theo? No...? :p
 
Notice the key statement in red that you read right over -- you have been arguing a point I never made.

Point conceded. I was arguing the point without recognizing that the statement in red was a fundamental part of it.

2) regading the early season shooting/scoring -- that one was done from memory. But it was not far off. Unfortunately as far as I know there still is not a site that will let you see accumulated stats from your choice of games, over a specified period of games

...

It was not hyperbole though. Maybe off by a few percentages, as memory will be, but pretty damn close to accurate.

I don't know of a site that allows that, either.

I guess I'm always careful to qualify numbers when I'm quoting from memory and I'm not sure what the exact values are, and I anticipate others will do the same.
 
I still don't understand the relevance of the argument. Yes, the team was abysmal last year. Yes, Martin was on the team last year - but so were a number of other guys who have been replaced by nice new shiny models. And guys like Beno, who pretty much played like dog poop last year, are stepping up and giving 100%...

We've got a new coach, and it's clear there's a new attitude. So why would you continually bring up the record as proof that Martin isn't any good??????

Bottom line, I think what frustrates me the most is the idea being put forth that there's no use waiting to see how Evans and Martin will play together.

But, having said all that, I'm fully aware this is an argument I not only will not win but that will end up getting me frustrated at what I perceive to be unfair comments about Martin. I'm at least content in the knowledge that regardless of what's said here, the organization IS anxious to see how their games complement each other and since they're the ones whose opinions actually determine which players are on the team, the rest is just speculation and heated discourse on our board.

:)

I am excited to see how Martin and Evans play together! I can see how they can complement each other. Martin is a better outside shooter, but he can slash to the basket. Evans has become one of the best slashers in basketball in a very short period of time, and his outside shot is coming around. Both players warrant a double team. CAN YOU double team both players on the wings? That is gonna make for a lot of scrambling by bigs trying to show on the wing.

If you can get the defense to start moving, other players will get open shots as well. I can see Evans driving and kicking it out to Martin for a WIDE OPEN three! Martin guarded tightly makes 3's at a pretty good clip. How many 3's will he make WIDE OPEN? I can only imagine. And if they stay on Martin, and allow Evans defender to go one on one with Tyreke, how many layups is 'Reke gonna have?

If the defense is scrambling to cover and double both Martin and Evans, there are gonna be players open. Casspi has shown he can hit a wide open jumper. Noc has hit a wide open shot or 2. JT one on one inside will have more room to operate if one of the bigs is out trying to cut off 'Reke or Martin from driving right to the basket! Yea, I can see a lot of ways that 'Reke and Martin can complement each other down the stretch of games.

All these "Trade Martin" folks need to settle down. First off, the Kings CANT trade Martin until he has played for at least a month successfully without getting injured again. NO TEAM will trade for Martin till he can prove he can make it more than a month without getting hurt. He already has a big tag that says fragile hanging from his neck. I don't think Martin is fragile. I think many of the injuries have been of the freakish type. I mean, a broken wrist on the non shooting hand? That is not a common basketball injury.

Secondly, Petrie has a plan. I am SURE that plan involves Martin. I am sure he and Westphal have discussed all the different ways they are going to be able to use Martin and Evans together to give teams NIGHTMARES thinking about how they are gonna stop TWO wing players who can shoot and drive! Look at how Rip Hamilton and Tashaun Prince were able to work together? I am not saying that Martin/Evans are as great as those 2 were, but you can see how 2 wing players can dominate a game and make it hard for teams to defend a two headed monster from the back court. I bet that Westphal is just GIDDY thinking up ways to utilize Martin and Evans together to drive and kick and move to keep the other teams defense moving and to get open shots for everyone. I think players like Casspi and Nocconi will benefit greatly from a Martin/Evans combo, because if the other team is doubling both Martin AND Evans, someone is gonna be wide open. Casspi and Noc might get 20-25 points a night shooting wide open jumpers! The possibilities are endless!!

Anyway, the trade deadline isn't until February, so there is no rush to change the chemistry. The chemistry so far has been outstanding! There is no reason to throw a monkey wrench into the machine! Lets see how this all comes together. It's like Geoff Petrie is a Master Chef! He and Paul Westphal are cooking up a gourmet meal that has not been fully prepared. When all the courses of the meal are complete, it might turn out to be a fantastic feast! We need to see how the whole team plays together. How does the dynamic change when you add players like Kevin Martin and Francisco Garcia to the team. I am excited to see how it all looks when the whole team is healthy and playing well.

Geoff Petrie and Paul Westphal have a plan in their minds about how the team is going to look when the entire team is together and in sync. Sure we could use another center to help out in the rotation, but other than that, this team has a lot of pieces in place. I think the Kings are one draft and one off season of free agency away from becoming a very competitive team. The West has been dominated by the Fakers for so long now. Teams like Portland and now even Sacramento are young and up and coming teams that are ready to move in once Kobe and the Fakers start to get old and fade. Petrie and now Westphal are not just planning for the moment, they are building for the future. It is fascinating to watch Petrie work his magic. I cant wait to see ALL the Kings men playing and succeeding on the court. It may turn out that the Kings have more pieces than we originally thought. They may only be a player or 2 away from challenging the Fakers for the West !!!!
 
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totally agree with this post 100%. last year everyone was saying kevin was good but he should not be the the #1 guy, but rather the 3rd or 2nd option. now he can be that guy and everyone want him out. i believe the REAL REASON everyone wants k-mart gone is because they are afraid of what STATS he will take away from Evans, instead of how the team plays as a whole. sound correct?? :p
Kevin is a great 2nd or 3rd options in a certain set up. If your #1 option is an in prime Shaq, Tim Duncan, KG, Webber, Dwight Howard, etc....ie a PF or C with inside game then Kevin is a PERFECT fit next to those.

When you get a #1 option in the backcourt in Tyreke then Kevin is not a good fit. It doesn't mean that he is all of a sudden a bad player because he clearly isn't. Its just that Tyreke and Kevin cannot play off each other all that well. If you say had Al Jefferson instead of Martin to pair with Tyreke then these 2 can play off each other all day long and actually complement each others game.

As it stands Evans and Martin is just an akward pairing.
 
judging a player on 5 games?? u just lost all your credibility there. free throws are not shot atempts, they are if fact "free points" or at least they should be. How could u judge a player negativly based on averaging 9.8FT a game?? THATS ALMOST 10 FREE POINTS A GAME!

You could even make the arguement that he is a more efficient scorer then Kobe Bryant. The stats dont lie!
I think you just lost the very little credibility that you have by saying that Free throws should not be counted as shot attempts. Does santa bring those to Martin every game without him attempting to take a shot?!

Fact is that majority of those FTAs are caused by Kevin being fouled WHILE SHOOTING! Some of them a technical FTs, some are "and ones" but majority of those FTA are a result of Martin getting fouled while taking a shot, hence why he gets the FTA.

To say that he averages 25ppg off 16 shot attempts is just plain ridicilous and stupid!
 
We need to keep Donte on a short leash like the coach has been doing. so he has to keep earning things and working harder. Omri should start because hes just as capable but more matured right now.
We cant give everything to donte at once, since he has the highest potential on our team next to reke, we have to do everything we can for him to tap into it. Im just scared if hes given the starting nod for good he wont work as hard to be in that position. We know forsure he will be working his *** off if hes coming off the bench.
 
We need to keep Donte on a short leash like the coach has been doing. so he has to keep earning things and working harder. Omri should start because hes just as capable but more matured right now.
We cant give everything to donte at once, since he has the highest potential on our team next to reke, we have to do everything we can for him to tap into it. Im just scared if hes given the starting nod for good he wont work as hard to be in that position. We know forsure he will be working his *** off if hes coming off the bench.

It's amusing how once in every 5-6 posts someone comes up with an actual on-topic post in this thread :D
 
Coward. :p


Is that where that quote is from BTW? I always assumed it was like Sun Tzu or somebody.

Number one. I'm still alive, so it works. :rolleyes: As to the origin, the first time I ever heard it was from the movie. However, its possible that they stole it for somewhere else.
 
Damn I missed the juiciness
So here is my final 2 cents. Kevin has never had the opportunity to play, with good team mates, competitively (I'm not even going to consider "that" Kings team lol). To say he's shown everything and has reached his peak is ridiculaugh! I think, along with many many others, that Kevin will just tear it up with Reke. Has everyone forgotten how freaking AMAZING Kevin's shot is?? I know I'm a blind Martin fan (which is why this is worth only 2 cents) but what the heck?? Is his defense really that bad?? Lets collectively hope he was only a bad team player because he chose to be...
 
Okay, dude... Here's the deal. I can be and am as critical of Brickie as anyone on this forum. But you're stepping way over the line and trying to turn this away from the topic at hand and into some kind of pissing contest.

I'll give you a heads up right now ... if you want to turn it in to something like that, you're gonna be left with a bunch of stuff running down your own leg.

You've taken this way further than should normally be allowed, so drop it now. Argue the criticisms of Martin as being warranted or not all you like, but call ANYONE on this board "ignorant" again and you're going to be facing the same kind of infractions we deal to anyone else.

Got it?

Never called anyone "ignorant". dont really see what your talking about here, i know what i can and cannot say. dont really think i crossed the line. Bricklayer just seemed to be forcing his arguement and painting this image of kevin martin that is total BS and it could be rubbing off on fans. I would just hate a kings players lose fans based on somthing a person says over a messege that may not be true. IMO kevin has done nothing but good for the kings on and off the court.
 
I have lost alot of respect for Bricklayer. You ignorant one-sided arguements based off little of no evidence to back them up is mind-boggling. And you never admitting that you are wrong can be extremely frustrating.

You have made my expierence on this forum a regrettable one.

This is the post I quoted and it started a bunch of posts by you that weren't at all about the topic at hand and became, instead, a diatribe against another member of the board.

You can ask anyone around here - I'm one of Kevin Martin's biggest fans and have been since the day he was drafted, so it's not that I don't follow what you're saying. What I'm trying to get across is that you're stepping over the line when you make it you vs. Bricklayer instead of your argument vs. his argument.

I'm just trying to keep the peace and keep the discussion going.
 
Although I generally agree that Donte is much more gifted than Omri, I still don't see any mature signs from Greene. He gave 2 good games, but tonight, for example, he started with 3 TOs, and finished with 5. I didn't see the game yet, but judging by his stats, he wasn't that assortive with his shots selection. I can definitely see a scenario, when he remains as he is today - unfulfilled promise.

On the other hand, we see Omri, frankly, a limited scrappy player, but look where he stands already. I think those are exact opposite situations. I can definitely see Casspi taking the most of his somehow limited skill, and much more than expected.

Of course, this has nothing to do with the question. I think the coach will have a rotation at this spot, as it depends on the current shape.
 
This is the post I quoted and it started a bunch of posts by you that weren't at all about the topic at hand and became, instead, a diatribe against another member of the board.

You can ask anyone around here - I'm one of Kevin Martin's biggest fans and have been since the day he was drafted, so it's not that I don't follow what you're saying. What I'm trying to get across is that you're stepping over the line when you make it you vs. Bricklayer instead of your argument vs. his argument.

I'm just trying to keep the peace and keep the discussion going.

Sorry i forgot about those other posts, i prolly shouldnt have said those one-liners. Glad we see eye-to-eye on this. wont happen again
 
Those were the team's averages at the point that Kevin went down. He scored. Nobody else did. We lost.

I see. But those stats is also irrelevant. If you only look at the first five games of the season, you can draw some pretty strange conclusion. For example, the Suns were just as good as the Lakers during the same period and Brandon Jennings outscored Al Jefferson.

The stats thru the King's first five games are result of the team still getting used to playing together and the young players having up and down games. So of course there's going to be curious stats, but it is a mistake to treat those stats like it is the norm.
 
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Coward. :p


Is that where that quote is from BTW? I always assumed it was like Sun Tzu or somebody.


Actually Sun Tzu did say that, or at least a strategy very close to it. But then he also said after you ran away go back and attack when the enemy's guard is down. So if I were you, beware. :p
 
how about the espn style of a depth chart

Sacramento
PG1-T. Evans
PG2-B. Udrih
PG3-S. Rodriguez
SG1-O. Casspi
SG2-K. Martin
SG3-F. Garcia
SF1-A. Nocioni
SF2-I. Udoka
SF3-D. Greene
PF1-J. Thompson
PF2-K. Thomas
PF3-S. May
C1-S. Hawes
C2-J. Brockman

Did you flipp OC and KM at SG in this one?
 
So we shouldn't crown his ***?
061017_dennis_green.jpg


You wanna crown him...CROWN him!
 
Glad somebody got it!

As an aside, I love the problem we have. Omri or Donte down the road? I'd love for Donte to realize his potential, and on paper the guy would be a nightmare on the road.
 
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