Some Bagley love..

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ESP47 said:
What do you guys think about Bagley so far?

Looks mostly the same to me. Defense looks a bit improved and the effort is there. Still doesn't box out at all and is still trying to rebound by positioning his body directly under the hoop with one arm stuck out. Seems to be frozen out on offense but it's difficult to run a PnR with him if he's playing with Holmes or TT because their man will just leave them to double. Moves are still telegraphed but he finishes them reasonably well or at least draws the foul. Still gets the ball slapped out of his hands easy. Gets himself open near the hoop here and there but his teammates don't seem to find him very often.
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Not Impressed so far. I will take a month or two to properly judge him. He will make or break. I am ready to conclude that he is not going to be an above average starter. There is a chance of below average starter or a back up. When you talk about the playoff level basketball and contending, no. Not much hope from what I have seen so far.
 
ESP47 said:
What do you guys think about Bagley so far?

Looks mostly the same to me. Defense looks a bit improved and the effort is there. Still doesn't box out at all and is still trying to rebound by positioning his body directly under the hoop with one arm stuck out. Seems to be frozen out on offense but it's difficult to run a PnR with him if he's playing with Holmes or TT because their man will just leave them to double. Moves are still telegraphed but he finishes them reasonably well or at least draws the foul. Still gets the ball slapped out of his hands easy. Gets himself open near the hoop here and there but his teammates don't seem to find him very often.
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A lot of the same unfortunately. I think he can be an effective scoring option vs bench units (similar to an Enes Kanter type), but man.. there's just not a whole ton of applicable skills you need to survive as a big or enough of a "big wing" game to be developed. He's still young and I think the most important thing for him is he stays healthy throughout the whole year so we can get some sort of a basis for where he's actually at. He just hasn't had any real long stint where he starts to get in a groove; then gets hurt.
 
Bagley is starting to remind me of Willie. Mentally he just does not seem engaged in the game. He floats around the floor. Plenty of talent. Just not very good at using it. Defense remains a question mark.
 
He looked completely lost out there against the Clippers. He has no idea where he's supposed to be, he just stands and watches the other four on the floor moving, he is worthless defensively. I really wonder if he's just not very bright. The guy has all the skill in the world to be a decent defender, he just doesn't seem to care. Personally, I can't wait for him just to be gone, don't even care what comes back in return.
 
SacTownKid said:
He's got skills going very unused since he's been here. And now he even has a 3 ball. From day 1 he has been putting up 20 ppg per 36. Usage has always been an issue.
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this is why we need a new coach lol.

back to Bagley. We need this dude to give literally just a healthy season and I’m pretty sure we make the play-in. The guy can get buckets, just needs to make his free throws to get his PPG up. Also, him being healthy will prolly get his FTs per game up to 4-5
 
EIM86 said:
this is why we need a new coach lol.

back to Bagley. We need this dude to give literally just a healthy season and I’m pretty sure we make the play-in. The guy can get buckets, just needs to make his free throws to get his PPG up. Also, him being healthy will prolly get his FTs per game up to 4-5
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Well, it's too late now anyway because the shots really might not be there this year not to mention he's in a contract year so if he does blow up it just makes things more complicated. The time to have given him that spot would have been from day 1. They've tried to compete ever since they entered the top half of the lottery for some reason. Signing win now players that only stunted the value of those draft picks.
 
SacTownKid said:
He's got skills going very unused since he's been here. And now he even has a 3 ball. From day 1 he has been putting up 20 ppg per 36. Usage has always been an issue.
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Again what? Dude has had a 24 25 and 23% usage rate in his 3 years and has produced below average efficiency for a big and bottom 5% playmaking creation from an active player. Wouldn't surprise me if he has the highest USG and lowest AST rate of players with a 20%+ USG.

He's had every opportunity on offense to show he's a feature player and he hasn't come close to producing how he needs to in the USG role he's been given
 
The_Jamal said:
Again what? Dude has had a 24 25 and 23% usage rate in his 3 years and has produced below average efficiency for a big and bottom 5% playmaking creation from an active player. Wouldn't surprise me if he has the highest USG and lowest AST rate of players with a 20%+ USG.

He's had every opportunity on offense to show he's a feature player and he hasn't come close to producing how he needs to in the USG role he's been given
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And in his minutes he's producing a career average of 20.5 ppg and 10.6 rbp per 36. If he were putting up those numbers people would certainly be looking at him differently as a young big. When healthy he never got starter minutes which going back to the debate, EFFECTS HIS VALUE as a young asset. If Vlade drafted him to be a point F that's on him. Bagley is a production big, plain and simple. He'll get you points. He'll get you boards. Last year Marvin was 90th in usage percentage. Boban Marjonovic was above him lol.

Also, just to add. You have to take the team situation into account. Most of the bigs on the team aren't on the floor for passing. They are mostly involved up top with hand off screens. Hassan last year had an assist percentage of 5.6, Holmes at 8.3 (the year before 5.1 btw), and Metu at 8.1. Per 36 Bagley outpaced all in PPG and was second to only Whiteside in RPG.
 
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SacTownKid said:
And in his minutes he's producing a career average of 20.5 ppg and 10.6 rbp per 36. If he were putting up those numbers people would certainly be looking at him differently as a young big. When healthy he never got starter minutes which going back to the debate, EFFECTS HIS VALUE as a young asset. If Vlade drafted him to be a point F that's on him. Bagley is a production big, plain and simple. He'll get you points. He'll get you boards. Last year Marvin was 90th in usage percentage. Boban Marjonovic was above him lol.

Also, just to add. You have to take the team situation into account. Most of the bigs on the team aren't on the floor for passing. They are mostly involved up top with hand off screens. Hassan last year had an assist percentage of 5.6, Holmes at 8.3 (the year before 5.1 btw), and Metu at 8.1. Per 36 Bagley outpaced all in PPG and was second to only Whiteside in RPG.
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Production bigs don't matter...

20/10 per 36 is a meme. It's derided constantly in this day and age. Hell, putting up the actual numbers of 20/10 is pretty dismissed as well.

Andre Drummond. Deandre Jordan. Hassan Whiteside.
2-time All Star. All defense C. Comeback sensation.

To...
Meme. Washed up liability. Signs a vet min with us and shifts in and out of the rotation.

And all three of them have virtually identical Per-36 stats to their glory days.

Ha, even Boban Marjonovic's Per 36 completely craps all over Bagley's so why are you yourself regarding him as a borderline joke.
 
SacTownKid said:
And in his minutes he's producing a career average of 20.5 ppg and 10.6 rbp per 36. If he were putting up those numbers people would certainly be looking at him differently as a young big. When healthy he never got starter minutes which going back to the debate, EFFECTS HIS VALUE as a young asset. If Vlade drafted him to be a point F that's on him. Bagley is a production big, plain and simple. He'll get you points. He'll get you boards. Last year Marvin was 90th in usage percentage. Boban Marjonovic was above him lol.

Also, just to add. You have to take the team situation into account. Most of the bigs on the team aren't on the floor for passing. They are mostly involved up top with hand off screens. Hassan last year had an assist percentage of 5.6, Holmes at 8.3 (the year before 5.1 btw), and Metu at 8.1. Per 36 Bagley outpaced all in PPG and was second to only Whiteside in RPG.
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Come on man, you're way smarter than using Per/36 in any serious basketball argument. I've been over this what feels like 1000x on this forum, but it's just a worthless stat. Doesn't tell you anything.


And no, not every big, but when you're an absolute liability on the defensive end, you better be an offensive savant in multiple ways to make up for it. Which is why a lot of this discussion is a moot point because even if Bagley could get to being an above-average scorer, he gives it back on defense. Bagley has been one of the worst ball-stoppers in the league the last 3 years. The possession often ends with him, which is why his lack of creation matters because along with inconsistent shooting, it's another fault you have to account for when he's on the floor.. It'd be one thing if he were an elite scorer/finisher in the vein of a Zion, but he hasn't been close to that thus far.
 
The_Jamal said:
Come on man, you're way smarter than using Per/36 in any serious basketball argument. I've been over this what feels like 1000x on this forum, but it's just a worthless stat. Doesn't tell you anything.


And no, not every big, but when you're an absolute liability on the defensive end, you better be an offensive savant in multiple ways to make up for it. Which is why a lot of this discussion is a moot point because even if Bagley could get to being an above-average scorer, he gives it back on defense. Bagley has been one of the worst ball-stoppers in the league the last 3 years. The possession often ends with him, which is why his lack of creation matters because along with inconsistent shooting, it's another fault you have to account for when he's on the floor.. It'd be one thing if he were an elite scorer/finisher in the vein of a Zion, but he hasn't been close to that thus far.
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I'm not disagreeing with almost any of that, but you also have to be more thorough than citing assist percentages without looking at what else is going with the players at his position as a measure of comparison if that's your bar. He plays enough minutes and in 3 years has been consistent enough in the minutes he's played for it to not be a fluke when it comes to productivity. If he were playing 9 mpg, then yeah, per 36's are not reliable. He's not though.
 
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The Effort Police said:
Production bigs don't matter...

20/10 per 36 is a meme. It's derided constantly in this day and age. Hell, putting up the actual numbers of 20/10 is pretty dismissed as well.

Andre Drummond. Deandre Jordan. Hassan Whiteside.
2-time All Star. All defense C. Comeback sensation.

To...
Meme. Washed up liability. Signs a vet min with us and shifts in and out of the rotation.

And all three of them have virtually identical Per-36 stats to their glory days.

Ha, even Boban Marjonovic's Per 36 completely craps all over Bagley's so why are you yourself regarding him as a borderline joke.
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I didn't say they do. I'm saying if that's what you got, you better darn well polish it up as best you can and make it shine if you took that player over some of the ones they did. This debate was on the basis of value. Someone putting up 20 and 10 can be a big jump from someone putting up 14 and 7 due to a lack of minutes.
 
SacTownKid said:
Well, it's too late now anyway because the shots really might not be there this year not to mention he's in a contract year so if he does blow up it just makes things more complicated. The time to have given him that spot would have been from day 1. They've tried to compete ever since they entered the top half of the lottery for some reason. Signing win now players that only stunted the value of those draft picks.
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All of these are great points but a bit moot when you consider the fact that he was never healthy in the first place. Thank God we had bodies signed and ready to play - win now or otherwise - because he certainly wasn’t able.

Hoping for a successful season all the way around for Bagley, our Kings, and, most of all, the fans that have endured so much frustration and anguish over the years.
 
NewArena said:
All of these are great points but a bit moot when you consider the fact that he was never healthy in the first place. Thank God we had bodies signed and ready to play - win now or otherwise - because he certainly wasn’t able.

Hoping for a successful season all the way around for Bagley, our Kings, and, most of all, the fans that have endured so much frustration and anguish over the years.
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That's partly true, but even when healthy he was averaging less than starter minutes and eventually was being used as a stretch big rather than a pick and roll focus. Vlades biggest issue was that he didn't think of value nearly as much as he should have.
 
Listening to Jason Jones yesterday, he stated that Marvin hasn't had a full training camp in a couple of years due to injury or COVID. Since he hasn't had extended playing time or practice in quite some time, it is understandable that there would be soreness.

Anyone who's played basketball at a high enough level knows there is no way to duplicate the intensity of basketball games without playing in actual games. It's not a situation of being out of shape, but having all summer and training camp with continuous play.

This is where load management comes in. Giving players nights off prevents this from happening.
 
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