Should the Kings go after Horford?

twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#1
#1
The issue with trading for Sabonis is that your 3 core pieces/cornerstones are below average defenders and defense is the Kings biggest weakness right now.

Would rather get Horford who can provide some of the passing but also play solid defense and stretch floor (and he won’t nearly cost as much and require us to mortgage our future).
 
kb02

kb02

All-Star
#2
#2
twslam07 said:
The issue with trading for Sabonis is that your 3 core pieces/cornerstones are below average defenders and defense is the Kings biggest weakness right now.

Would rather get Horford who can provide some of the passing but also play solid defense and stretch floor (and he won’t nearly cost as much and require us to mortgage our future).
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Horford is the wrong arc, age wise. Not looking for a bandaid big. Want a cornerstone big. Easier to find a shot blocking big than a multi-faceted big, hence why I prefer Sabonis to Turner, who just isn’t the facilitator that Sabonis is.

But, again, my preference is to get Simmons. This is a Middle Manager Monte, buy the IBM deal at the deadline if everything else collapses situation.
 
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2

24 rick barry

Bench
#3
#3
twslam07 said:
The issue with trading for Sabonis is that your 3 core pieces/cornerstones are below average defenders and defense is the Kings biggest weakness right now.

Would rather get Horford who can provide some of the passing but also play solid defense and stretch floor (and he won’t nearly cost as much and require us to mortgage our future).
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Maybe bring Zach Randolf back too? Foolish.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#5
#5
twslam07 said:
Are you suggesting that adding Horford to our team is foolish? Would be interested to hear how you back this statement up.
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Well we could have the macro discussion on how us trying to win with this core is dumb, but unfortunately we seem insistent on trying to top out a 7 seed.

As long as any Horf deal is basically Buddy+secondary pieces, I'd be more than fine with it. Shorter contract and he's just a straight upgrade across the board that would help on both sides of the ball.
 
2

24 rick barry

Bench
#6
#6
twslam07 said:
Are you suggesting that adding Horford to our team is foolish? Would be interested to hear how you back this statement up.
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With regard to Horford, you are joking right? Are you being serious?
Simple answer-Horford is 35 years old.

Is your goal to get to the play-in this year-which is 1 game ahead of the bottom third of the league. You part with one of your trade chips to get into a play-in scenario for this year? Kind of embarrassing. If this is your goal, then your goal is foolish too.

Maybe you would entertain signing Zach Randolf again?
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#7
#7
The_Jamal said:
Well we could have the macro discussion on how us trying to win with this core is dumb, but unfortunately we seem insistent on trying to top out a 7 seed.

As long as any Horf deal is basically Buddy+secondary pieces, I'd be more than fine with it. Shorter contract and he's just a straight upgrade across the board that would help on both sides of the ball.
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I think we both agree that we should be rebuilding but understand that’s not what is going to happen hence we now focus on realistic trades. And yeah I’ve been pretty vocal on a Hield for Horford type deal but I was thinking recently if BOS would do a Horford for Bagley/Thompson type deal that would free up cap next year and get them out of the luxury tax this season. If we pull off a Simmons for Fox deal, getting Horford and keeping Hield might be a better option. You can never have enough shooting around Simmons. Then pull off the Holmes for Smith/Washington deal and you’re left with…

PG - Haliburton / Mitchell / Smith
SG - Hield / Davis / Ramsey
SF - Barnes / Harkless / Woodard
PF - Simmons / Metu
C - Horford / Jones / Len

That’s three 40%+ shooters around Simmons and Horford who’s a career 36% from 3 (having a down year this year shooting the ball).
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#8
#8
24 rick barry said:
With regard to Horford, you are joking right? Are you being serious?
Simple answer-Horford is 35 years old.

Is your goal to get to the play-in this year-which is 1 game ahead of the bottom third of the league. You part with one of your trade chips to get into a play-in scenario for this year? Kind of embarrassing. If this is your goal, then your goal is foolish too.

Maybe you would entertain signing Zach Randolf again?
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Well this is getting interesting. You seem to not acknowledge Horford’s impact on the floor and use the “he’s 35” as your only consideration to not trade for him. Fascinating…

Let me ask you a couple of questions:
  • Do you not think the FO is not trying to go for a playoff spot this year?
  • What type of value are you insinuating I’m giving up for Horford?
 
itzcoatl

itzcoatl

Bench
#9
#9
twslam07 said:
Well this is getting interesting. You seem to not acknowledge Horford’s impact on the floor and use the “he’s 35” as your only consideration to not trade for him. Fascinating…

Let me ask you a couple of questions:
  • Do you not think the FO is not trying to go for a playoff spot this year?
  • What type of value are you insinuating I’m giving up for Horford?
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It’s totally reasonable to not want a 35 year old that’s not an expiring.
Why don’t you just say what you would give up for Horford. No need to be difficult.
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#10
#10
itzcoatl said:
It’s totally reasonable to not want a 35 year old that’s not an expiring.
Why don’t you just say what you would give up for Horford. No need to be difficult.
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"Not want" and saying it's "foolish" are two different things.

I've already posted a couple of my thoughts on a Horford trade, but I've thrown out variations like:

Trade #1
BOS Gets: Marvin Bagley, Tristan Thompson, Mo Harkless, & 2022 SAC 2nd
SAC Gets: Al Horford & Aaron Nesmith

Trade #2
BOS Gets: Buddy Hield, Derrick Favors, & Mike Muscala
OKC Gets: Juan Hernangomez, Dennis Schroder, Mo Harkless, 2022 SAC 2nd, & 2023 SAC 2nd
SAC Gets: Al Horford, Aaron Nesmith, & Kenrich Williams



I'm only making a Horford trade if I have a trade lined up for Holmes which is why I keep coming back to Holmes for Ish Smith & PJ Washington to give us a 23 year old SF/PF that has the ability to help us now while also growing with our core, young guys. In the meantime, Horford addresses our 3 biggest weaknesses: defense, playmaking/passing from the frontcourt, & shooting from the frontcourt.

Obviously, Horford won't be in the long term plans, but he can help with McNair's objective of competing this season, addresses are 3 biggest weaknesses, is a great locker room presence & mentor, plays a style that will help maximize Fox & Haliburton's abilities (or Simmons & Haliburton), and he's likely cheap to pry away from BOS (considering they really like Robert Williams over there) which allows us to use our assets on other upgrades or allows us to keep our youth/picks in place to continue building towards the future.

Oh and here are his advanced impact stats this year compared to some of the other relevant bigs mentioned:

1642465059726.png
 
itzcoatl

itzcoatl

Bench
#11
#11
twslam07 said:
"Not want" and saying it's "foolish" are two different things.

I've already posted a couple of my thoughts on a Horford trade, but I've thrown out variations like:

Trade #1
BOS Gets: Marvin Bagley, Tristan Thompson, Mo Harkless, & 2022 SAC 2nd
SAC Gets: Al Horford & Aaron Nesmith

Trade #2
BOS Gets: Buddy Hield, Derrick Favors, & Mike Muscala
OKC Gets: Juan Hernangomez, Dennis Schroder, Mo Harkless, 2022 SAC 2nd, & 2023 SAC 2nd
SAC Gets: Al Horford, Aaron Nesmith, & Kenrich Williams



I'm only making a Horford trade if I have a trade lined up for Holmes which is why I keep coming back to Holmes for Ish Smith & PJ Washington to give us a 23 year old SF/PF that has the ability to help us now while also growing with our core, young guys. In the meantime, Horford addresses our 3 biggest weaknesses: defense, playmaking/passing from the frontcourt, & shooting from the frontcourt.

Obviously, Horford won't be in the long term plans, but he can help with McNair's objective of competing this season, addresses are 3 biggest weaknesses, is a great locker room presence & mentor, plays a style that will help maximize Fox & Haliburton's abilities (or Simmons & Haliburton), and he's likely cheap to pry away from BOS (considering they really like Robert Williams over there) which allows us to use our assets on other upgrades or allows us to keep our youth/picks in place to continue building towards the future.

Oh and here are his advanced impact stats this year compared to some of the other relevant bigs mentioned:

View attachment 10848
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Those advanced stats are really something. Good analysis here.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#14
#14
twslam07 said:
"Not want" and saying it's "foolish" are two different things.

I've already posted a couple of my thoughts on a Horford trade, but I've thrown out variations like:

Trade #1
BOS Gets: Marvin Bagley, Tristan Thompson, Mo Harkless, & 2022 SAC 2nd
SAC Gets: Al Horford & Aaron Nesmith

Trade #2
BOS Gets: Buddy Hield, Derrick Favors, & Mike Muscala
OKC Gets: Juan Hernangomez, Dennis Schroder, Mo Harkless, 2022 SAC 2nd, & 2023 SAC 2nd
SAC Gets: Al Horford, Aaron Nesmith, & Kenrich Williams



I'm only making a Horford trade if I have a trade lined up for Holmes which is why I keep coming back to Holmes for Ish Smith & PJ Washington to give us a 23 year old SF/PF that has the ability to help us now while also growing with our core, young guys. In the meantime, Horford addresses our 3 biggest weaknesses: defense, playmaking/passing from the frontcourt, & shooting from the frontcourt.

Obviously, Horford won't be in the long term plans, but he can help with McNair's objective of competing this season, addresses are 3 biggest weaknesses, is a great locker room presence & mentor, plays a style that will help maximize Fox & Haliburton's abilities (or Simmons & Haliburton), and he's likely cheap to pry away from BOS (considering they really like Robert Williams over there) which allows us to use our assets on other upgrades or allows us to keep our youth/picks in place to continue building towards the future.

Oh and here are his advanced impact stats this year compared to some of the other relevant bigs mentioned:

View attachment 10848
Click to expand...
Interesting numbers on Holmes. Maybe because he's in and out the whole year and hasn't really gotten to get a rhythm? But I have to imagine those are far below his advanced numbers the previous 2 seasons with us.
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#15
#15
The_Jamal said:
Interesting numbers on Holmes. Maybe because he's in and out the whole year and hasn't really gotten to get a rhythm? But I have to imagine those are far below his advanced numbers the previous 2 seasons with us.
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Yeah Holmes' numbers were better in the previous season. Wondering how much of that is being in & out or getting his 4 year contract.
 
funkykingston

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#18
#18
I could see a trade for Horford if it's a three way deal with Philadelphia.

SAC sends: De'Aaron Fox, Harrison Barnes, Richaun Holmes, Kings 2023 FRP (top 3 protected)
SAC receives: Ben Simmons, Al Horford, Aaron Nesmith

BOS sends: Jaylen Brown, Al Horford, Aaron Nesmith
BOS receives: De'Aaron Fox, Harrison Barnes, Richaun Holmes, Kings 2023 FRP (top 3 protected)

PHI sends: Ben Simmons
PHI receives: Jaylen Brown

The Sixers get a young two way star that compliments Maxey & Embiid, the Celtics pair Tatum with Fox and get some complimentary pieces while moving off of Horfords contract and the Kings land Simmons and a floor spacing big.

C Horford/Len/Thompson/Jones
PF Simmons/Metu/Bagley/Woodard
SF Nesmith/Harkless
SG Haliburton/Hield/Davis/Ramsey
PG Mitchell

Two way: Queta & King

To balance the roster you'd want to deal Hield as well. I like his shooting with Simmons, but Buddy is reportedly unhappy in Sacramento and his lack of defense and inability to affect the game beyond his outside shot mean I'd rather see him go.

SAC sends: Buddy Hield, Alex Len
SAC receives: Ziaire Williams, Tyus Jones, Jarrett Culver

MEM sends: Ziaire Williams, Tyus Jones, Jarrett Culver
MEM receives: Buddy Hield, Alex Len

basically ending contracts and a gamble on Williams, but it balances the roster a bit too. Ideally you move Bagley as well but I'm not sure what the market is for him at this point.

C Horford/Thompson/Jones
PF Simmons/Metu/Bagley/Woodard
SF Nesmith or Williams/Harkless/Culver
SG Haliburton/Davis/Ramsey
PG Mitchell/Jones

Two way: Queta & King

Still a bit thin at PG on paper but in reality Haliburton & Simmons are PGs as well.

The core would now be Simmons and Haliburton and ideally whoever they get in the lottery this year since Simmons won't be ready to play for a few weeks and that likely means better lottery odds.
 
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M

midtowner

Starter
#19
#19
funkykingston said:
I could see a trade for Horford if it's a three way deal with Philadelphia.

SAC sends: De'Aaron Fox, Harrison Barnes, Richaun Holmes, Kings 2023 FRP (top 3 protected)
SAC receives: Ben Simmons, Al Horford, Aaron Nesmith

BOS sends: Jaylen Brown, Al Horford, Aaron Nesmith
BOS receives: De'Aaron Fox, Harrison Barnes, Richaun Holmes, Kings 2023 FRP (top 3 protected)

PHI sends: Ben Simmons
PHI receives: Jaylen Brown

The Sixers get a young two way star that compliments Maxey & Embiid, the Celtics pair Tatum with Fox and get some complimentary pieces while moving off of Horfords contract and the Kings land Simmons and a floor spacing big.

C Horford/Len/Thompson/Jones
PF Simmons/Metu/Bagley/Woodard
SF Nesmith/Harkless
SG Haliburton/Hield/Davis/Ramsey
PG Mitchell

Two way: Queta & King

To balance the roster you'd want to deal Hield as well. I like his shooting with Simmons, but Buddy is reportedly unhappy in Sacramento and his lack of defense and inability to affect the game beyond his outside shot mean I'd rather see him go.

SAC sends: Buddy Hield, Alex Len
SAC receives: Ziaire Williams, Tyus Jones, Jarrett Culver

MEM sends: Ziaire Williams, Tyus Jones, Jarrett Culver
MEM receives: Buddy Hield, Alex Len

basically ending contracts and a gamble on Williams, but it balances the roster a bit too. Ideally you move Bagley as well but I'm not sure what the market is for him at this point.

C Horford/Thompson/Jones
PF Simmons/Metu/Bagley/Woodard
SF Nesmith or Williams/Harkless/Culver
SG Haliburton/Davis/Ramsey
PG Mitchell/Jones

Two way: Queta & King

Still a bit thin at PG on paper but in reality Haliburton & Simmons are PGs as well.

The core would now be Simmons and Haliburton and ideally whoever they get in the lottery this year since Simmons won't be ready to play for a few weeks and that likely means better lottery odds.
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In this scenario - I think I’d rather take Jaylen Brown and roll with a Mitchell, Haliburton, Brown Bagley and Len lineup - and try to swing Buddy for a forward or center that could help us.
 
Spike

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#21
#21
HndsmCelt said:
At this stage in Horford's career I wouldn't trade young assets for him.
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Idk. This team will need the voice of a professional player like Horford. Rolling out an entire team of 23 yr olds isn't something you want either. Whomever coaches this team is going to need a veteran presence at an impact position, and if you look at the end results of these trades, we would be a super young/immature squad without it.
 
funkykingston

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#22
#22
HndsmCelt said:
At this stage in Horford's career I wouldn't trade young assets for him.
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In a vacuum I wouldn't either but if the Kings want to get Ben Simmons it likely means parting with Fox and involving a 3rd team if the Sixers don't want De'Aaron as the main piece in a deal.

Here it's not so much about targeting Horford as it is finding a deal that Boston will accept for Brown. And I think they value Barnes more, but if they wanted Buddy instead I'd do that too.

That said, Horford's ability to stretch the floor would make him a good fit with Simmons.
 
HndsmCelt

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#23
#23
funkykingston said:
In a vacuum I wouldn't either but if the Kings want to get Ben Simmons it likely means parting with Fox and involving a 3rd team if the Sixers don't want De'Aaron as the main piece in a deal.

Here it's not so much about targeting Horford as it is finding a deal that Boston will accept for Brown. And I think they value Barnes more, but if they wanted Buddy instead I'd do that too.

That said, Horford's ability to stretch the floor would make him a good fit with Simmons.
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I can see how that scenario might be tempting to a win now mindset and stats driven analysis. I am highly skeptical of Ben after watching him in last years play offs and would urge anyone serious excited about landing him to watch every Philly game form last years lay offs before betting the farm on him. I also have a wait and see attitude towards major changes as long as the head coaching position for next year is a huge question mark.
 
miltonap

miltonap

Starter
#24
#24
funkykingston said:
I could see a trade for Horford if it's a three way deal with Philadelphia.

SAC sends: De'Aaron Fox, Harrison Barnes, Richaun Holmes, Kings 2023 FRP (top 3 protected)
SAC receives: Ben Simmons, Al Horford, Aaron Nesmith

BOS sends: Jaylen Brown, Al Horford, Aaron Nesmith
BOS receives: De'Aaron Fox, Harrison Barnes, Richaun Holmes, Kings 2023 FRP (top 3 protected)

PHI sends: Ben Simmons
PHI receives: Jaylen Brown

The Sixers get a young two way star that compliments Maxey & Embiid, the Celtics pair Tatum with Fox and get some complimentary pieces while moving off of Horfords contract and the Kings land Simmons and a floor spacing big.

C Horford/Len/Thompson/Jones
PF Simmons/Metu/Bagley/Woodard
SF Nesmith/Harkless
SG Haliburton/Hield/Davis/Ramsey
PG Mitchell

Two way: Queta & King

To balance the roster you'd want to deal Hield as well. I like his shooting with Simmons, but Buddy is reportedly unhappy in Sacramento and his lack of defense and inability to affect the game beyond his outside shot mean I'd rather see him go.

SAC sends: Buddy Hield, Alex Len
SAC receives: Ziaire Williams, Tyus Jones, Jarrett Culver

MEM sends: Ziaire Williams, Tyus Jones, Jarrett Culver
MEM receives: Buddy Hield, Alex Len

basically ending contracts and a gamble on Williams, but it balances the roster a bit too. Ideally you move Bagley as well but I'm not sure what the market is for him at this point.

C Horford/Thompson/Jones
PF Simmons/Metu/Bagley/Woodard
SF Nesmith or Williams/Harkless/Culver
SG Haliburton/Davis/Ramsey
PG Mitchell/Jones

Two way: Queta & King

Still a bit thin at PG on paper but in reality Haliburton & Simmons are PGs as well.

The core would now be Simmons and Haliburton and ideally whoever they get in the lottery this year since Simmons won't be ready to play for a few weeks and that likely means better lottery odds.
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I think the 1st trade makes sense since it seems what Philly is really looking for is a playmaking wing, not so much a guard like De'Aaron.

I don't think Memphis would do that second trade though. Kind of seems like a crap return
 
iowamcnabb

iowamcnabb

Hall of Famer
#25
#25
I actually like the trade FK proposed but I think the Celtics say no.

how about this as a smaller 3 way deal option:

Celts trade Horford, Nesmith 22 2nd rounder
Celtics receive Barnes Ish Smith

Hornets trade PJ, Ish Smith 2nd rounder
Hornets receive Holmes

Kings trade Richaun Holmes, Harrison Barnes
Kings receive PJ, Nesmith two second rounders

Celtics

Smart
Brown
Tatum
Barnes
Williams

Charlotte

Ball
Rozier
Gordon H
Bridges
Holmes

Kings
Hali Mitchell
Fox Buddy
TD Nesmith
PJ Metu
Horford Len

kings get an upgrade at Center defensively, 2 young forwards to grow with the core and a couple second rounders for the trouble. This probably doesn’t help our playoff chances much but our assets increase. Trade Buddy this off season and draft Keegan Murray ( assuming we stay in our current drafting range.

Hali Mitchell
Fox TD
Murray Nesmith
PJ (whoever we get for Buddy as depth)
Horford Queta

that’s a much better defending team IMO with some potential. Throw in a new coach and we could have a tolerable team next year
 
D

davebuzz

Prospect
#26
#26
twslam07 said:
The issue with trading for Sabonis is that your 3 core pieces/cornerstones are below average defenders and defense is the Kings biggest weakness right now.

Would rather get Horford who can provide some of the passing but also play solid defense and stretch floor (and he won’t nearly cost as much and require us to mortgage our future).
Click to expand...
talk about desperate
 
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