Shams Bomb! Keon Ellis and Dennis Schroder traded to Cleveland in 3 team deal. Kings acquire De’Andre Hunter

[SacTownKid]

what does D-LEBRON vs Role avg measure for those that don’t keep up with the ever expanding advanced stats to watch?

Like most advanced stats, an answer looking for a question that fits. IIRC I remember hearing that stat heavily favors bigs. To the point where it's very hard to use as a metric position to position.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Or... crazy idea. Fox may just he telling the truth because he's got nothing to hide and no one outside of Sacramento blames him for wanting to leave? I'm not going to speak to what his wife's motives may or may not be. That crosses a line for me. There is a certain Shakespearean appeal to the idea of a real-life Macbeth scenario, but that doesn't mean I believe it.

Don't know how much you do or don't use twitter but Fox's wife isn't some backstage influence, she's front and center running internet PR for him and put together a sizable influencer army who all blame Domas for everything that happened to Brown. She got into an altercation with a player who was at one point in time a good enough friend to be in their wedding party on the court after Fox's homecoming. I view the fact that I acutely know who a player's wife is on about the same par as knowing a referee's name. It's generally not good.

Fox quit on Brown before he quit on us. Fox got Brown fired as much as anyone else on the team. Then used that as a trade demand. You believe what you want but to me those three sentences are truth.

 

[gunks]

Dumb

 

[pdxKingsFan]

what does D-LEBRON vs Role avg measure for those that don’t keep up with the ever expanding advanced stats to watch?

LEBRON is BB Index's flagship stat and looking up their explanation it appears like it is very much dependent on how a team uses a player. So if a player goes against the other team's best player every night they are going to look bad unless they are lock down on D.

Then the "role average" convolutes things because BB Index assigns your role and they don't always get it right. But it appears BB Index requires paid membership so I couldn't get much info on Hunter.

LEBRON Introduction - Basketball Index

Read about BBall Index's LEBRON impact metric, a next level metric to estimate impact of NBA players since the 2009-10 season.

www.bball-index.com

 

[serbiangoat]

Hunter would have been a great pick up to pair with Keegan the season they made arguably the worst signing in Kings history in DDR when you had Fox.

The trade would be a win but the team is trying to tank.....

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Keon on a value contract was awesome. Keon on a veteran contract would be just ok.

Given how little of Keon's destiny we contractually controlled, we weren't in a position to extract a lot of value from trading him.

Trading Schröder is a puzzle though; the core question remains unanswered: is Perry still trying to build around Domas?

 

[kingdivac]

Not even 2nd rounders.........

ESPN:

Grade for Cleveland: B+
Grade for Sacramento: C
Grade for Chicago: A

 

[Joshyjosh31]

Keon on a value contract was awesome. Keon on a veteran contract would be just ok.

Given how little of Keon's destiny we contractually controlled, we weren't in a position to extract a lot of value from trading him.

Trading Schröder is a puzzle though; the core question remains unanswered: is Perry still trying to build around Domas?

And what was the reason for not having control

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

And what was the reason for not having control

So far, that's between Keon, Keon's agent, Monte, and Perry. From the outside, we're just guessing

 

[kingdivac]

Man, don't even try to throw this LaVine ish in my face. I shot that down already last year. Dude is a fraud, always has been. And we're not even close to top 10 defensively so having an elite scorer does us no good anyway.

Ellis is 26 and currently making $2 million per year. He was undrafted and is not a consistent starter. He would have signed for a lot less than Hunter is making now and we had him under team control already and could have kept him that way for 4 more years. And he would have been one of the best value contracts in the league for what he contributes on the court. All we get with Hunter is one year and then he's an Unrestricted Free Agent. Why would he want to re-sign here knowing he won't sniff the playoffs for the next 3 years at least?

And if there is an Ellis in every draft, how come the Kings don't pick them? He's not just a role-player, he is a good role-player. A guy you can sick on the other team's best guard and he can actually have an impact on the game. I also like Cardwell for the same reason but having Cardwell does not mean we no longer need Ellis. It's the same stupid thing I've been hearing for the last 20 years out of this franchise. Here's our one good defender. We'll play them 20 mpg and barely sniff .500 year after year after year while we just keep piling on more scorers thinking that will work.

For the record I adore Cardwell.....I dont care that he has no offense......and was unhappy that Kings management kept him out for a month or so into the season. Undrafted golden pickup. His Auburn highlights sold me in 5 mins or whatever.

 

[Tetsujin]

RE: bolded items only.

I have no clue how good Hunter is. I just know we balanced out the roster a bit giving up a DEEP bench player that is pretty much washed, a player we signed this summer that everyone wanted gone, and a fan favorite undersized pesky guard who couldn't break into the rotation. We also gave up (likely) a very late second round pick. We got a decent sized wing who historically was OK on D and could hit a three (from what I've gathered so far). I have no idea if it is a "win". At least on paper, from a roster construction standpoint, it seems to make some sense to me.

We have no idea if we could have signed Keon to an extension. That's speculation. Maybe his agent basically told us that he wanted to play elsewhere? That's also speculation, but possibly more realistic given his lack of playing time, etc.

On this note, should note that Keon and Dennis have the same agent (also Keegs, so I dunno, be ready for a shocking trade) so they might’ve been a package deal.

 

[kingdivac]

Man, we have some harsh critics on this here forum.

I am willing to wait this one out before passing final judgment. Because a move like this tells me that Scott wants to put his fingerprints all over the next reincarnation of the Sacramento Kings. While it's tough to see Keon leave, I can understand why Scott has decided to send him elsewhere.

Ideally, I would've loved to see a handful of picks coming our way, but at the end of the day, I am also "glad" to see Schroder get sent out, and I have no real opinion one way or the other on Saric.

It also gives us an opportunity to see Cardwell be featured more, and that is something I can live with.

I wish Keon well. I hope he excels in Cleveland.

Handful may be expecting too much, but how bout one 2nd round pick. Yes, Schroder was a poor free agent signing, and not a good first impression for the new General Manager.

 

[Tetsujin]

Man, we have some harsh critics on this here forum.

I am willing to wait this one out before passing final judgment. Because a move like this tells me that Scott wants to put his fingerprints all over the next reincarnation of the Sacramento Kings. While it's tough to see Keon leave, I can understand why Scott has decided to send him elsewhere.

Ideally, I would've loved to see a handful of picks coming our way, but at the end of the day, I am also "glad" to see Schroder get sent out, and I have no real opinion one way or the other on Saric.

It also gives us an opportunity to see Cardwell be featured more, and that is something I can live with.

I wish Keon well. I hope he excels in Cleveland.

Moves like this are usually precursor moves to something else. Opening up two roster slots makes it easier to trade a big contract (Domas?) for a couple of slightly smaller deals or a bigger deal and the cheap young guy you’re actually excited about getting on the roster.

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2017814392218522033

Among other things, this also removes the temptation from Doug to play both Dennis and Russ together in clutch situations for some reason instead of giving guys we actually want to see reps.

 

[sactowndog]

If this is really the plan, Murray with Hunter is a mediocre wing tandem, if you're serious about it becoming a playoff contender. This is back to hoping to get through the play-in stuff

It’s not great I agree but at least it is a wing tandem. I would guess you are hoping the draft falls well and it’s a wing rotation. Or you ad expirings for 27 and pay to get one

 

[Tetsujin]

It’s not great I agree but at least it is a wing tandem. I would guess you are hoping the draft falls well and it’s a wing rotation. Or you ad expirings for 27 and pay to get one

Clearing out the guard logjam also makes it so you can take a guard in the draft with absolutely no issues at this point. Peterson is big enough to be a wing but if we fall to five and get Flemings, there was a 75% chance Doug would have him coming off the bench behind Dennis for some reason.

 

[Padrino]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2017814392218522033

Among other things, this also removes the temptation from Doug to play both Dennis and Russ together in clutch situations for some reason instead of giving guys we actually want to see reps.

Always a good sign when a GM trades his own ill-advised off-season acquisition to prevent his neophyte head coach from playing that ill-advised off-season acquisition too many minutes alongside the GM's other ill-advised off-season acquisition.

 

[Padrino]

Oh come on. He wanted out. Or at least his wife and agent convinced him he needed to get out. I actually think he was conflicted. Which is why he's done more damage control than I've ever seen someone do.

Damage control? Here's De'Aaron Fox in December:

"I don’t really have anything to say [about the Kings]. It is what it is. I wish [Keegan Murray] the best. Whether that is rebuilding, I want him to be in the best situation for him."

"The grass is greener on this side."

"I haven’t stopped smiling since I’ve been here."

The man wanted to leave, I don't think he was particularly conflicted about it, I don't think his wife or agent were pulling any kind of Machiavellian strings, and given everything that's happened within the Kings organization in the year since trading Fox, it's getting easier and easier for me to say, "Well, he did what he had to do."

 

[sactowndog]

Dennis was a Scott Perry signing, last summer. If that was a trash contract whose fault is it? The same person who just made this trade.



I did not defend trading away Hali. That was a bitter pill for all of us at the time and I was deeply skeptical of Domas because of his size and perceived defensive shortcomings. It worked out better for us than expected, but it turns out it was another short-term move that peaked quickly and had negative long-term effects.

Monte was not the best GM ever but he had one thing that none of these other Kings GM's have had since Geoff Petrie -- he consistently identified NBA talent in the draft. As a small market team we simply cannot survive without that skill which is why I continue to defend him. And I will also go to bat for any coach or player who is a plus defender and/or cares about defense. It's why I'm still willing to give Doug Christie the benefit of the doubt too.

And I certainly did not defend Monte for making that LaVine trade which is where most of the roster damage was done. All Scott Perry had to do this past off-season was re-sign Keon Ellis and not trade Jonas Valanciunas. If Doug had played those two players starter's minutes instead of Westbrook and LaVine we wouldn't be a dumpster fire of a team right now. And there's a decent chance Scott Perry gets bailed out with a top 5 pick and the team gets better anyway in spite of him. Such is life, as the French say.

Monte had one skill. Taking smallish guards early in the draft when others were drafting length.

None of that talent worked for us because you can’t use all those guards at the same time. But yeah sure you can say Monte was excellent at identify one type of player, wasting early picks on them, and extremely poor roster construction.

 

[TheBigO]

I'm about ready to be done giving any time or energy to being a fan of this franchise.

I'll give the Kings this off-season.

But so far I'm just seeing the same ineptitude as always.

 

[sactowndog]

Clearing out the guard logjam also makes it so you can take a guard in the draft with absolutely no issues at this point. Peterson is big enough to be a wing but if we fall to five and get Flemings, there was a 75% chance Doug would have him coming off the bench behind Dennis for some reason.

Yep we are going to play a lot of bad teams and could easily end up 6 or 7 in the draft where you are looking at Brown or Wagler as well. Both would have just further impacted a backcourt not to mention the BPA at our 2nds could also well be a guard.

 

[sactowndog]

I'm about ready to be done giving any time or energy to being a fan of this franchise.

I'll give the Kings this off-season.

But so far I'm just seeing the same ineptitude as always.

And I absolutely get why. The only straw I can give you to grasp is Perry could not have moved Vivek to do a rebuild without signing a point guard.

Step 0: Get Vivek to realize a rebuild had to occur.
Step 1: unload acquired vets. <——. We are here

 

[Padrino]

Gee, wonder what the one common denominator is in all of the Kings bad picks, hmmm... Yep, 99% what the Kings do with it, not what they do. Davion seems to have found a role. Give Carter a season or two of ACTUAL opportunity and see what shakes out. That would be the smart thing but the Kings can't get out of their own way. Like ever. This season has been practically unfathomable from a path standpoint. It's never been this ridiculous with the way Christie has used his rotation in relation to development.

Indeed. There is a great deal of desire within the fanbase for something to happen, and would you look at that? Something just happened! I understand the impulse for many to celebrate simply because the Kings are not sitting idly at the trade deadline. It's good that the front office is making their calls and exploring all kinds of possibilities. In a vacuum, however, this trade does absolutely nothing for the issue of clarity. What are the Kings doing? That's what I want to know. And right now, there's no answer to this question, based on, as you noted, the unfathomable decisions that have been made since Scott Perry was hired.

Perry himself has said he expects it to take some time to turn the Kings into a sustainable winner. That's perfectly fine; I'm all-in for a patient rebuild. But if this trade is part of Perry's plan to turn the Kings into a sustainable winner, it's unclear to me how it assists with that goal. There may be follow up moves that bring us greater clarity, of course, but right now? I don't get it.

De'Andre Hunter is a wing with length. Huzzah! Can you believe it?! A wing with length!! We need one of those!!! Uhm, yeah... sure? Nearly a full teardown is what the Kings actually need, and Hunter is 28, oft-injured, has regressed as a shooter this season, has never really been a plus-defender despite his reputation, but you know what? None of that even matters, because what is the plan into which Hunter figures? Is he expected to be a long-term piece of the puzzle? Probably not. Is he expected to contribute to winning? Well, what's the point of that when Perry is calling for patience and the Kings desperately need to rely on their own lottery odds to do much of the heavy lifting in a rebuild?

So... is De'Andre Hunter just a stopgap then? If so, then the trade's only purpose was to clear up a guard logjam of Perry's own making. Necessary, perhaps, but hardly worth celebrating. Again, I understand the impulse for Kings fans to look at this trade and say, "Well, the Kings got a good player at a position of need, so it's a good trade." But that view just ignores so much important context.

I mean, somehow, the Kings are sending out a second rounder in this deal! Does that pick mean sh*t? No, not really. But at a time when the Kings need to be scrambling for youth and every future draft pick they can get their hands on, they just should not be in the business of trading younger-for-older and giving up picks of any kind. It's a ho-hum deal, meant to begin the process of unwinding the mistakes of the off-season while not committing the Kings to long-term money. Keon Ellis becomes a sacrifice Perry needed to make in order to revise his own plan. Not particularly auspicious, that.

 

[sactowndog]

So basically the argument from fans is that they are mad that we won the trade and may potentially get better.

So good in fact that it will ruin our chances of a top 5 pick?

And we traded.....Dennis S who nobody wanted and I personally hated.

And Ellis, a undrafted yet over achieving role player.

And we are mad that we traded our future away by trading our.....2nd round....2029 pick.

All while freeing up space to sign our fan favorite backup Center

And potentially finally seeing what our 1st round Carter can do by getting rid of the log jam of guards

While also keeping our picks and still having our main trade bates intact?

Did i miss something?

I’m not sure I would say we won the trade as much as it’s not as bad as most portray it. Yes we had to pay to dump Dennis but if we don’t sign Dennis we don’t move Vivek from point A to point B. We clear out some of the guard rotation. We shall see what happens next.

 

[dude12]

Entertaining to read the last 4-5 pages.
I think the biggest thing about the deal is that when we are supposedly in a 5 year window of building, most were not expecting to acquire a vet who is 28. Whether Hunter still has juice left, his shooting is definitely down this year, is secondary to what teams would usually do in a rebuilding window, which is getting younger assets/picks.

The balancing of roster, length , getting rid of Schroder, etc is fine, but this surely doesn’t seem to fit a rebuild.

 

[Warhawk]

Indeed. There is a great deal of desire within the fanbase for something to happen, and would you look at that? Something just happened! I understand the impulse for many to celebrate simply because the Kings are not sitting idly at the trade deadline. It's good that the front office is making their calls and exploring all kinds of possibilities. In a vacuum, however, this trade does absolutely nothing for the issue of clarity. What are the Kings doing? That's what I want to know. And right now, there's no answer to this question, based on, as you noted, the unfathomable decisions that have been made since Scott Perry was hired.

Perry himself has said he expects it to take some time to turn the Kings into a sustainable winner. That's perfectly fine; I'm all-in for a patient rebuild. But if this trade is part of Perry's plan to turn the Kings into a sustainable winner, it's unclear to me how it assists with that goal. There may be follow up moves that bring us greater clarity, of course, but right now? I don't get it.

De'Andre Hunter is a wing with length. Huzzah! Can you believe it?! A wing with length!! We need one of those!!! Uhm, yeah... sure? Nearly a full teardown is what the Kings actually need, and Hunter is 28, oft-injured, has regressed as a shooter this season, has never really been a plus-defender despite his reputation, but you know what? None of that even matters, because what is the plan into which Hunter figures? Is he expected to be a long-term piece of the puzzle? Probably not. Is he expected to contribute to winning? Well, what's the point of that when Perry is calling for patience and the Kings desperately need to rely on their own lottery odds to do much of the heavy lifting in a rebuild?

So... is De'Andre Hunter just a stopgap then? If so, then the trade's only purpose was to clear up a guard logjam of Perry's own making. Necessary, perhaps, but hardly worth celebrating. Again, I understand the impulse for Kings fans to look at this trade and say, "Well, the Kings got a good player at a position of need, so it's a good trade." But that view just ignores so much important context.

I mean, somehow, the Kings are sending out a second rounder in this deal! Does that pick mean sh*t? No, not really. But at a time when the Kings need to be scrambling for youth and every future draft pick they can get their hands on, they just should not be in the business of trading younger-for-older and giving up picks of any kind. It's a ho-hum deal, meant to begin the process of unwinding the mistakes of the off-season while not committing the Kings to long-term money. Keon Ellis becomes a sacrifice Perry needed to make in order to revise his own plan. Not particularly auspicious, that.

While I agree with everything you said, the team isn’t going to come out and say this is a stopgap move. They would be stupid to say anything like that.

I view it as a move to balance the team makeup a bit by cheaply picking up a distressed asset. If nothing else it helps clear up a logjam at guard a bit.

Not every move has to be a home run. Some can be singles or sacrifice flies.