Shams Bomb! Keon Ellis and Dennis Schroder traded to Cleveland in 3 team deal. Kings acquire De’Andre Hunter

Tizzy Flip said:
We are what we are as a fanbase. Great fandom but bipolar emotionally. Same group who though Siakam would be a terrible fit. We’ve been screaming for length and shooting. We get it and still complain. We honestly don’t know what we want, we just want someone to get us playoff wins but can’t articulate how. Monte did us no favors with the string of undersized guards he drafted. The one big guard he drafts he trades away in what everyone outside of Sac considers one of the worst trades in recent history. Perry may end up being awful but Monte’s vision of constructing a team with smalls that can guard but can’t shoot, led by a 1 that couldn’t shoot, and a 4/5 that’s your hub that can’t shoot is why we’re at where we are.
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The only issue I recall with Siakam was he made it pretty clear he would not re-sign with us. Now granted it turns out he did not test FA and did re-sign with Indy, but it was pretty tough to convince myself that giving up Keegan and multiple FRP for a one year rental was a good idea.
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
If he's part of the plan to "rebuild fast", it's going to be another attempt at a shortcut that doesn't work. With the interest for Ellis around the league, I think they could have done better and instead added a draft pick
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I’m just speculating but I don’t see any team giving up a FRP for Ellis. Maybe a late FRP, but I would rather have Hunter instead. If he gets back to last 3-4 years of shooting but he doesn’t help our trajectory next season or the season after, then at least he’ll have more trade value than I think what Ellis would have commanded. I mean Lakers traded for a 31yo DFS for essentially 3 seconds
 
hrdboild said:
Baby steps. :)
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Procedurally, yes, baby steps. I agree.
But, I would rather us not allow the long-term goal of a number 1 defense leave us behind.
So, shoot for a number 1 defense, but start with a top 10 defense, then move up to a top 5 defense. Maybe a top 3 defense after that. But the eventual goal should always be the number 1 defense.
 
Tizzy Flip said:
I’m just speculating but I don’t see any team giving up a FRP for Ellis. Maybe a late FRP, but I would rather have Hunter instead. If he gets back to last 3-4 years of shooting but he doesn’t help our trajectory next season or the season after, then at least he’ll have more trade value than I think what Ellis would have commanded. I mean Lakers traded for a 31yo DFS for essentially 3 seconds
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Hunter isn't even really a two way player known for defense. If he was a developing player on the rise, I could be in favor of it,....but he is who he is at this point. I'd rather have a later pick
 
hrdboild said:
My point is, sometimes the outrage is justified. There will always be fans who call every Kings trade a win. I get it, optimism feels better than outrage. I don't enjoy having to vet every stupid decision a Kings front office makes. I rather would prefer somebody competent were making these decisions instead and I could just cheer them on for their good work.

Hunter himself is not a terrible player, he's actually pretty good. But last place teams not even a full year into their rebuild don't trade for 28 year olds with one year left on their contract. We could have had Keon Ellis re-signed for the next 4 years. Keon was a legitimately valuable asset that Scott Perry just disappeared for no good reason. Unless we hit the lottery and are miraculously competing already next year, the sum total of Scott Perry's managing of the Keon Ellis contract situation was a long-term talent drain for a team that didn't have a lot of talent to give away in the first place.
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RE: bolded items only.

I have no clue how good Hunter is. I just know we balanced out the roster a bit giving up a DEEP bench player that is pretty much washed, a player we signed this summer that everyone wanted gone, and a fan favorite undersized pesky guard who couldn't break into the rotation. We also gave up (likely) a very late second round pick. We got a decent sized wing who historically was OK on D and could hit a three (from what I've gathered so far). I have no idea if it is a "win". At least on paper, from a roster construction standpoint, it seems to make some sense to me.

We have no idea if we could have signed Keon to an extension. That's speculation. Maybe his agent basically told us that he wanted to play elsewhere? That's also speculation, but possibly more realistic given his lack of playing time, etc.
 
hrdboild said:
Without Tyrese, Pascal Siakam's team is fighting with us for worst record in the league this season. That's not a terribly convincing demonstration of his hypothetical value to a competing Kings team. Certainly unworthy of taking a victory lap on those who didn't like the fit here.

Why are Kings fans upset about this team finally trading for a wing player? Because everything is contextual. I wanted a De'Andre Hunter trade two years ago before Vivek blew up the Beam Team. At this point, we would have been better off just re-signing Keon Ellis last summer instead. And why are you still ragging on Monte McNair about signing too many guards? Monte is responsible for the only winning Kings season in the last two decades. He had his limitations but his strategy clearly was not all bad.

And I know exactly what I want. A top10 defense and one elite scorer. That's the only formula that has ever led to consistent wins in the NBA. Keon could have contributed to the defensive part of that equation. Hunter undoubtedly will not. And given where Hunter is now in his career (28 years old with one playoff series win on his resume) and free agency one year away for him, we're likely to get about 10% of his effort as he counts the minutes until he's out of Sacramento. We're supposed to be building a franchise that winning players want to play for and instead we're building a franchise that everyone can't wait to escape from.
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One elite scorer like say lavine?

You do know Ellis is 26 right? 2 year age difference. Yet one is a future building block the other is washed up garbage according to your logic.

Hunter arguably is easily just as valuable defensively for a team that lacked size.

Why dont you understand that no matter how you felt about Ellis being our hero, now two coaching staffs and two Gms do not feel the same. They did not see him as long term. You will have to come to terms with that.

There is a Ellis every single draft. Just think of Caldwell as our alter ego Ellis.

Hunter is a well respected player in this league. His 3pt % was amazing before this season and there is nothing alarming that says it wont return to form.

If calling Ellis a role player (he is) is disrespectful in your eyes then so be it. Hes still a role player.

Ill take this trade. Now we need to trade Derozan and ill he ok for playing the rest of this season out. And if Hunter gets us a 20 game win steak and In play-in. Ill be ecstatic. It means he was missing piece and next year will be amazing (this won't happen)

If he doesn't, we traded dennis and a role player man
 
Tizzy Flip said:
Weird point on Siakam. He obviously fits well with Hali. I thought he would fit well with the beam team as a 2nd option. Which is what I was arguing for 2 years ago. Never said he would thrive as the primary option

We are where we are cuz of Monte’s choices. His strategy of building a team through offensively deficient undersized guards who are great at defense is a recipe for losing. You build championships through guards that can lead an offense and score, and with wings that can shoot and defend. Or if you have defensive minded guards, you better have elite wings or centers. He doubled down on a certain type. So we are where we are. And unfortunately we have to sacrifice some valuable pieces like Keon (who I don’t see as a rare building block) to help turn the Titanic around
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No, we are where we are because Vivek hasn't got a clue and made Monte fire Mike Brown which made Fox demand a trade which made Vivek fire McNair and hire someone far worse to take his place. Who are these offensively deficient undersized guards that McNair signed? Malik Monk who was runner-up for sixth man of the year? Keon Ellis who has a 41.6% career three point percentage? Tyrese Haliburton who has made All NBA twice in his first 5 NBA seasons? You seem to want to take a victory lap on the McNair firing part of this and nothing about our current situation justifies it.

You also just said that everyone who didn't want to trade for Siakam is bipolar and doesn't know what they want. We don't know how Siakam would have fit with the Kings. I didn't hate the fit but also didn't see how he would improve a team much that already had plenty of scoring but needed to improve on the defensive end. Siakam is a lot of things but he is not an impactful defender. He just happened to be a guy who was maybe available once upon a time but he liked his own potential fit with another team more and maneuvered his way there by agreeing to sign a contract extension with them. Oh well. Why even bring this up now?
 
For the record I dont think Hunter has come here to save us.

This trade isnt even close to the magnitude of a Fox trade.

Its simply imo a nice move. Nothing crazy. If it works out great, if not, then we continue the tanking and nothing changes.

Apparently having Ellis on our team granted us the worst record in kings history. And even with that he averaged 6 points a game for us and couldn't beat out Westbrook and Dennis for minutes
 
hrdboild said:
No, we are where we are because Vivek hasn't got a clue and made Monte fire Mike Brown which made Fox demand a trade which made Vivek fire McNair and hire someone far worse to take his place. Who are these offensively deficient undersized guards that McNair signed? Malik Monk who was runner-up for sixth man of the year? Keon Ellis who has a 41.6% career three point percentage? Tyrese Haliburton who has made All NBA twice in his first 5 NBA seasons? You seem to want to take a victory lap on the McNair firing part of this and nothing about our current situation justifies it.

You also just said that everyone who didn't want to trade for Siakam is bipolar and doesn't know what they want. We don't know how Siakam would have fit with the Kings. I didn't hate the fit but also didn't see how he would improve a team much that already had plenty of scoring but needed to improve on the defensive end. Siakam is a lot of things but he is not an impactful defender. He just happened to be a guy who was maybe available once upon a time but he liked his own potential fit with another team more and maneuvered his way there by agreeing to sign a contract extension with them. Oh well. Why even bring this up now?
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You still believe that Fox left the kings because Mike got fired?

Even after all the evidence of him wanting out long before this? After all his wife's plans?
 
Rob-The-Great said:
One elite scorer like say lavine?

You do know Ellis is 26 right? 2 year age difference. Yet one is a future building block the other is washed up garbage according to your logic.

Hunter arguably is easily just as valuable defensively for a team that lacked size.

Why dont you understand that no matter how you felt about Ellis being our hero, now two coaching staffs and two Gms do not feel the same. They did not see him as long term. You will have to come to terms with that.

There is a Ellis every single draft. Just think of Caldwell as our alter ego Ellis.

Hunter is a well respected player in this league. His 3pt % was amazing before this season and there is nothing alarming that says it wont return to form.

If calling Ellis a role player (he is) is disrespectful in your eyes then so be it. Hes still a role player.

Ill take this trade. Now we need to trade Derozan and ill he ok for playing the rest of this season out. And if Hunter gets us a 20 game win steak and In play-in. Ill be ecstatic. It means he was missing piece and next year will be amazing (this won't happen)

If he doesn't, we traded dennis and a role player man
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Man, don't even try to throw this LaVine ish in my face. I shot that down already last year. Dude is a fraud, always has been. And we're not even close to top 10 defensively so having an elite scorer does us no good anyway.

Ellis is 26 and currently making $2 million per year. He was undrafted and is not a consistent starter. He would have signed for a lot less than Hunter is making now and we had him under team control already and could have kept him that way for 4 more years. And he would have been one of the best value contracts in the league for what he contributes on the court. All we get with Hunter is one year and then he's an Unrestricted Free Agent. Why would he want to re-sign here knowing he won't sniff the playoffs for the next 3 years at least?

And if there is an Ellis in every draft, how come the Kings don't pick them? He's not just a role-player, he is a good role-player. A guy you can sick on the other team's best guard and he can actually have an impact on the game. I also like Cardwell for the same reason but having Cardwell does not mean we no longer need Ellis. It's the same stupid thing I've been hearing for the last 20 years out of this franchise. Here's our one good defender. We'll play them 20 mpg and barely sniff .500 year after year after year while we just keep piling on more scorers thinking that will work.
 
hrdboild said:
No, we are where we are because Vivek hasn't got a clue and made Monte fire Mike Brown which made Fox demand a trade which made Vivek fire McNair and hire someone far worse to take his place. Who are these offensively deficient undersized guards that McNair signed? Malik Monk who was runner-up for sixth man of the year? Keon Ellis who has a 41.6% career three point percentage? Tyrese Haliburton who has made All NBA twice in his first 5 NBA seasons? You seem to want to take a victory lap on the McNair firing part of this and nothing about our current situation justifies it.

You also just said that everyone who didn't want to trade for Siakam is bipolar and doesn't know what they want. We don't know how Siakam would have fit with the Kings. I didn't hate the fit but also didn't see how he would improve a team much that already had plenty of scoring but needed to improve on the defensive end. Siakam is a lot of things but he is not an impactful defender. He just happened to be a guy who was maybe available once upon a time but he liked his own potential fit with another team more and maneuvered his way there by agreeing to sign a contract extension with them. Oh well. Why even bring this up now?
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That you Monte??
 
hrdboild said:
Man, don't even try to throw this LaVine ish in my face. I shot that down already last year. Dude is a fraud, always has been. And we're not even close to top 10 defensively so having an elite scorer does us no good anyway.

Ellis is 26 and currently making $2 million per year. He was undrafted and is not a consistent starter. He would have signed for a lot less than Hunter is making now and we had him under team control already and could have kept him that way for 4 more years. And he would have been one of the best value contracts in the league for what he contributes on the court. All we get with Hunter is one year and then he's an Unrestricted Free Agent. Why would he want to re-sign here knowing he won't sniff the playoffs for the next 3 years at least?

And if there is an Ellis in every draft, how come the Kings don't pick them? He's not just a role-player, he is a good role-player. A guy you can sick on the other team's best guard and he can actually have an impact on the game. I also like Cardwell for the same reason but having Cardwell does not mean we no longer need Ellis. It's the same stupid thing I've been earing for the last 20 years out of this franchise. Here's our one good defender. We'll play them 20 mpg and barely sniff .500 year after year after year while we just keep piling on more scorers thinking that will work.
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Sir all the stuff your saying just dont add up man.

You can flip the same argument for cavs to say this about the player they actually matched salaries for to make this trade happen.

Dennis was on a 3 year trash contract and we just flipped him for Hunter.

Honestly I think we do get one of his type almost every year. In fact I think Carter can be just as good defensively if given some PT.

Point is I just think this trade has more positive than negative in it. And thats a win in my book
 
Rob-The-Great said:
You still believe that Fox left the kings because Mike got fired?

Even after all the evidence of him wanting out long before this? After all his wife's plans?
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Anyone defending Mike Brown, Fox, spending FRPs on Davion and Carter, and trading away Hali I just can’t take seriously

My whole point is any sensible GM would have to undo a lot of the bad choices Monte made, and a major priority would be to get longer and better shooting. We’re getting that with Hunter. It may not work out, but at least we’re moving in a direction that makes some sense. Somehow that means bringing up Mike Brown and Fox?!?
 
Tizzy Flip said:
Anyone defending Mike Brown, Fox, spending FRPs on Davion and Carter, and trading away Hali I just can’t take seriously
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Like man, I dont understand these guys. You litteraly cant win.

I see no trade that they will be happy with. These guys really thought Ellis was going to net us a lottery pick lol.

Honestly I think the Davion pick was worse than the Carter pick at the time. I dont care what he turned out to be in Miami. He was terrible for us
 
Rob-The-Great said:
For the record I dont think Hunter has come here to save us.

This trade isnt even close to the magnitude of a Fox trade.

Its simply imo a nice move. Nothing crazy. If it works out great, if not, then we continue the tanking and nothing changes.

Apparently having Ellis on our team granted us the worst record in kings history. And even with that he averaged 6 points a game for us and couldn't beat out Westbrook and Dennis for minutes
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He wasn't even playing this season! Supposedly we were tanking and not playing him was a strategic move to help us get a better draft pick. Anyone with any sense could see he was the biggest net positive on the floor for us other than Keegan who has played even less. He could have been Kobe Bryant and he wouldn't have helped us win games from the bench averaging 5 shot attempts a game. This is just... why? There is no defense for this. Everyone in this organization treated Keon like a pariah this season. It's obvious what the real reason was. Scott Perry drafted Nique Clifford. And immediately made Keon Ellis expendable. Because like everyone else in the Kings front office he's high on his own supply.
 
Rob-The-Great said:
Like man, I dont understand these guys. You litteraly cant win.

I see no trade that they will be happy with. These guys really thought Ellis was going to net us a lottery pick lol.

Honestly I think the Davion pick was worse than the Carter pick at the time. I dont care what he turned out to be in Miami. He was terrible for us
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It’s not a knock on Davion or Carter. Those dudes fit a team like OKC, Cleveland, Houston where they don’t need length and offense in their depth pieces. They just need bodies that can defend to help their elite playmakers. Unfortunately, Monte drafted them as if we needed 1 more on ball defensive piece to make a deep playoff run
 
Rob-The-Great said:
Sir all the stuff your saying just dont add up man.

You can flip the same argument for cavs to say this about the player they actually matched salaries for to make this trade happen.

Dennis was on a 3 year trash contract and we just flipped him for Hunter.

Honestly I think we do get one of his type almost every year. In fact I think Carter can be just as good defensively if given some PT.

Point is I just think this trade has more positive than negative in it. And thats a win in my book
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Dennis was a Scott Perry signing, last summer. If that was a trash contract whose fault is it? The same person who just made this trade.

Tizzy Flip said:
Anyone defending Mike Brown, Fox, spending FRPs on Davion and Carter, and trading away Hali I just can’t take seriously

My whole point is any sensible GM would have to undo a lot of the bad choices Monte made, and a major priority would be to get longer and better shooting. We’re getting that with Hunter. It may not work out, but at least we’re moving in a direction that makes some sense. Somehow that means bringing up Mike Brown and Fox?!?
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I did not defend trading away Hali. That was a bitter pill for all of us at the time and I was deeply skeptical of Domas because of his size and perceived defensive shortcomings. It worked out better for us than expected, but it turns out it was another short-term move that peaked quickly and had negative long-term effects.

Monte was not the best GM ever but he had one thing that none of these other Kings GM's have had since Geoff Petrie -- he consistently identified NBA talent in the draft. As a small market team we simply cannot survive without that skill which is why I continue to defend him. And I will also go to bat for any coach or player who is a plus defender and/or cares about defense. It's why I'm still willing to give Doug Christie the benefit of the doubt too.

And I certainly did not defend Monte for making that LaVine trade which is where most of the roster damage was done. All Scott Perry had to do this past off-season was re-sign Keon Ellis and not trade Jonas Valanciunas. If Doug had played those two players starter's minutes instead of Westbrook and LaVine we wouldn't be a dumpster fire of a team right now. And there's a decent chance Scott Perry gets bailed out with a top 5 pick and the team gets better anyway in spite of him. Such is life, as the French say.
 
Rob-The-Great said:
And even with that he averaged 6 points a game for us and couldn't beat out Westbrook and Dennis for minutes
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It was Huerter then Zach, Monk, DDR and maybe Nique that were in his way, all of em are in Carter's way.

The Schröder signing was pointless at the end it amounted to Keon for Hunter. I can't say if it's good or bad, it IS disappointing to me.

A lot of other doom talk on Perry like moving on from JV I'm willing to cut a break because JV wanted to leave the NBA and Saric was supposed to be an expiring deal in Kuminga talks. I really hate making a questionable deal as part of another deal that isn't final but it sorta just is what it is there.
 
hrdboild said:
The man literally said so. Occam's razor.
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Oh come on. He wanted out. Or at least his wife and agent convinced him he needed to get out. I actually think he was conflicted. Which is why he's done more damage control than I've ever seen someone do.

Dame didn't do damage control, Bron didn't do damage control after the decision, etc. etc.

You bring up many good points but the fact Brown is already repeating mistakes in NY with a better roster, and I think your take on Perry wanting Keon gone because of Nique is ... inaccurate. The Dubs wanted Keon in a Kuminga deal and we said no way. I really think this is at least partially due to Christie. But like you say, Christie values defense. So what gives? But saying it is Perry being petty I think there is zero evidence other than dislike of the guy. Which is fine.
 
hrdboild said:
Dennis was a Scott Perry signing, last summer. If that was a trash contract whose fault is it? The same person who just made this trade.



I did not defend trading away Hali. That was a bitter pill for all of us at the time and I was deeply skeptical of Domas because of his size and perceived defensive shortcomings. It worked out better for us than expected, but it turns out it was another short-term move that peaked quickly and had negative long-term effects.

Monte was not the best GM ever but he had one thing that none of these other Kings GM's have had since Geoff Petrie -- he consistently identified NBA talent in the draft. As a small market team we simply cannot survive without that skill which is why I continue to defend him. And I will also go to bat for any coach or player who is a plus defender and/or cares about defense. It's why I'm still willing to give Doug Christie the benefit of the doubt too.

And I certainly did not defend Monte for making that LaVine trade which is where most of the roster damage was done. All Scott Perry had to do this past off-season was re-sign Keon Ellis and not trade Jonas Valanciunas. If Doug had played those two players starter's minutes instead of Westbrook and LaVine we wouldn't be a dumpster fire of a team right now. And there's a decent chance Scott Perry gets bailed out with a top 5 pick and the team gets better anyway in spite of him. Such is life, as the French say.
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I disagree with his drafting prowess. His drafting philosophy and team construction was in my opinion poor. For a small market team like us that doesn’t have free agent pull like the major markets, you have to hit on most your draft picks and in the key positions. He didn’t and spent picks on smaller guys like Davion and Carter that have little trade value, when there were viable options to get longer and better shooting. One of the outcomes of striking out on Davion and not having good wing shooting is we gave a FRP for Huerter. It just became bad decision upon bad
 
Tizzy Flip said:
I disagree with his drafting prowess. His drafting philosophy and team construction was in my opinion poor. For a small market team like us that doesn’t have free agent pull like the major markets, you have to hit on most your draft picks and in the key positions. He didn’t and spent picks on smaller guys like Davion and Carter that have little trade value, when there were viable options to get longer and better shooting. One of the outcomes of striking out on Davion and not having good wing shooting is we gave a FRP for Huerter. It just became bad decision upon bad
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Gee, wonder what the one common denominator is in all of the Kings bad picks, hmmm... Yep, 99% what the Kings do with it, not what they do. Davion seems to have found a role. Give Carter a season or two of ACTUAL opportunity and see what shakes out. That would be the smart thing but the Kings can't get out of their own way. Like ever. This season has been practically unfathomable from a path standpoint. It's never been this ridiculous with the way Christie has used his rotation in relation to development.
 
pdxKingsFan said:
Oh come on. He wanted out. Or at least his wife and agent convinced him he needed to get out. I actually think he was conflicted. Which is why he's done more damage control than I've ever seen someone do.

Dame didn't do damage control, Bron didn't do damage control after the decision, etc. etc.

You bring up many good points but the fact Brown is already repeating mistakes in NY with a better roster, and I think your take on Perry wanting Keon gone because of Nique is ... inaccurate. The Dubs wanted Keon in a Kuminga deal and we said no way. I really think this is at least partially due to Christie. But like you say, Christie values defense. So what gives? But saying it is Perry being petty I think there is zero evidence other than dislike of the guy. Which is fine.
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Or... crazy idea. Fox may just he telling the truth because he's got nothing to hide and no one outside of Sacramento blames him for wanting to leave? I'm not going to speak to what his wife's motives may or may not be. That crosses a line for me. There is a certain Shakespearean appeal to the idea of a real-life Macbeth scenario, but that doesn't mean I believe it.

I'm not watching the Knicks much so I can't speak to that either. They're the 2 seed in the East as of today so I'm not sure what the issue would be other than the classic case of inflated expectations for a famously cantankerous fanbase (and I mean that in the best way) and one of the largest media markets in the country needing to manufacture drama somehow now that their football season is over and baseball hasn't started yet.

Everything about this Keon scenario is bizarre dating right back to why didn't we just extend him when we had the chance? Coach Christie talking about him like he was a favorite child whenever he was brought up by the local media and then letting him rot on the bench will never make sense to me. Russ is a Hall of Famer and has always had his own unique aura as a player so I kindof get why Doug is so deferential to him. But why is Nique Clifford playing more minutes in his rookie season than a player who is both a proven shooter and a proven defender unless some consensus had been reached early in the season that Ellis was on the way out?

And I didn't use the word petty in any of my Scott Perry criticism nor do I think that's an accurate term for the behavior I did describe. I would say that Scott Perry has a healthy ego despite having done very little of note in his career so far as a front office executive. That's the impression I get from his interviews. And I'm just trying to make sense out of what I've seen happen which is that 5 of the top 7 players in minutes played for the Kings so far have been players that Scott Perry brought in. DeRozan ranks first, then Westbrook and LaVine, followed by Schröder, Raynaud, Aichuwa, and Clifford in that order. Whether that's Doug keeping his boss happy or Perry actively telling him "play my guys" is an open question but there's no arguing with the actual numbers. It's right there in black and white that Perry's guys have all been given preferential treatment.
 
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