Seth Curry signed by Kings

This signing is nothing more than camp fodder, then down to Reno to play with Stockton in the high tempo two midget guard lineup there.
 
Gary said:
This signing is nothing more than camp fodder, then down to Reno to play with Stockton in the high tempo two midget guard lineup there.
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I think that it is important to have garbage time that can be maximized, and since we have a bench full of vets, Seth certainly fits the bill!
 
Bricklayer said:
If we can just please please have some injury luck then there is no oncourt downside and a potential upside if he works out. On the other hand, we have absolutely NO room for error this season, and until very recently all of Vlade's moves seemed to reflect his understanding of that situation. And the way this could become a problem is if we get screwed by injuries again. One injury to either of our 2 PGs and unless we try to swing Belinelli or more likely Anderson (who struggled with it in Summer League) over to the PG, our backup PG would become a 25yr old journeyman with 21 minutes of NBA action under his belt. I am jealously guarding any such vulnerability, because nothing can be allowed to scuttle us this year. We were in safer hands with a vet, just as we came up one legit PF shy. As long as we can just stay healthy neither thing may matter. But its another potential chink in the armor, and this is a combat season we have to win this time.
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This year was never meant to get us to the finals. We most certainly MUST improve considerably, and I think that Vlade has set us up to do that. With only minor injuries, we can achieve that. With some major injuries, we will still be much improved. By 2016-17, we should have a better bench, either through some "scrubs" as you call them coming through and becoming decent NBA players, or through free agency or trades, and IMHO we should then have the team to get into the playoffs past the second round. GO KINGS!!
 
To be fair, we HAD a 2nd round pick who was MVP of Summer League and we dealt him to San Antonio. I like Curry's ability to score and while McCallum was relatively bland he was a guy that didn't hurt you while he was in. Slightly above average size, relatively effective defender, didn't turn the ball over, could score a bit etc.

I'm still not certain why he was traded. He seemed like a decent backup plan if Miller wasn't resigned. I know the rationale was that they'd lose him next offseason for nothing but that's what happens with half or more of the 3rd PGs each offseason.

Maybe Karl didn't like Ray's style of play, I don't know. But I DO know that barring an amazingly healthy season out of both Rondo and Collison that the Kings 3rd PG will play meaningful minutes this season. Odds are that player will be the backup PG for around 10-15 games and hopefully not more.

Can Curry defend NBA PGs? Can he be an effective scorer against bigger and more athletic defenders? Will he struggle to being the ball up against aggressive pressure? Will his presence on the court be a net positive or a net negative? I don't know the answers to any of these questions.

I hope the answers are yes, yes, no and net positive. But we can't pretend that the 3rd PG isn't an important role in a team hoping to fight for a playoff spot.
 
People of Kingsfans, Ray Mac will always be a 3 PG off the bench, so please let's not pretend like we just traded away LeBron James. Who cares? You could find a player like Ray any year and any off-season. He had 2 seasons to show something, and last season he played way more than he should have. And you know what? He didn't take that opportunity and make it his. He played alright, at best, and at times was flat horrible. If he showed something worth keeping, he would still be here. We are talking about a guy who's elite at nothing and doesn't have a single skill that he could rely on when all else fails. I don't know why anyone is even making this into a discussion. He's gone and I wish him well, but man I'm not going to lose any sleep over a 3rd PG.
 
funkykingston said:
To be fair, we HAD a 2nd round pick who was MVP of Summer League and we dealt him to San Antonio. I like Curry's ability to score and while McCallum was relatively bland he was a guy that didn't hurt you while he was in. Slightly above average size, relatively effective defender, didn't turn the ball over, could score a bit etc.
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I think Ray gets a reputation as a defender since he is not a good shooter, passer or penetrator, so obviously he must defend. But by any metric you look at he was atrocious on defense. Obviously management realized it too, (and he hadn't improved at all since we drafted him) was why he was dealt.
 
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There is an idea that part of the "deal" for being able to get Belli, was a behind the scenes "handshake" understanding for the RayMac trade. In other words, it was part of the 'deal' without officially being part of the deal
 
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ShastaKingsFan said:
There is an idea that part of "deal" for being able to get Belli, was a behind the scenes "handshake" understanding for the RayMac trade. In other words, it was part of the 'deal' without officially being part of the deal
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Does this idea has backing? cause it's a pretty weird idea...
San Antonio needed the cap space to sign LMA, and didn't have matching rights anyway so I don't really get how are they even a side in this deal as we signed Marco as a FA.

For this ideal to work could be:
1. SA, who didn't want to bring Marco back (because they needed the cap space), somehow managed to convince him to not sign with teams and than made a wink-wink deal with us and told Marco to sign with us- which is pretty crazy. Or 2. convinced Vlade that because we took Marco he needs to bring them Ray- which is also crazy.

I think we traded Ray because we thought it would be the right call and thought we can do more with the roster spot (that 2nd rounder is not that valuable since it will be probably 55-60).
I think it wasn't a good decision... but I don't get the logic of the suggested wink-wink deal.
 
Amit149 said:
Does this idea has backing? cause it's a pretty weird idea...
San Antonio needed the cap space to sign LMA, and didn't have matching rights anyway so I don't really get how are they even a side in this deal as we signed Marco as a FA.

For this ideal to work could be:
1. SA, who didn't want to bring Marco back (because they needed the cap space), somehow managed to convince him to not sign with teams and than made a wink-wink deal with us and told Marco to sign with us- which is pretty crazy. Or 2. convinced Vlade that because we took Marco he needs to bring them Ray- which is also crazy.

I think we traded Ray because we thought it would be the right call and thought we can do more with the roster spot (that 2nd rounder is not that valuable since it will be probably 55-60).
I think it wasn't a good decision... but I don't get the logic of the suggested wink-wink deal.
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I don't know know about "backing",....but we desperately needed another shooter and they were losing Corey Joseph and needed another inexpensive point guard who fits in with their culture, character and personality wise. Ray fits right in with the Spurs and will have a nice opportunity to continue to learn and develop in a solid atmosphere
 
Amit149 said:
Does this idea has backing? cause it's a pretty weird idea...
San Antonio needed the cap space to sign LMA, and didn't have matching rights anyway so I don't really get how are they even a side in this deal as we signed Marco as a FA.

For this ideal to work could be:
1. SA, who didn't want to bring Marco back (because they needed the cap space), somehow managed to convince him to not sign with teams and than made a wink-wink deal with us and told Marco to sign with us- which is pretty crazy. Or 2. convinced Vlade that because we took Marco he needs to bring them Ray- which is also crazy.

I think we traded Ray because we thought it would be the right call and thought we can do more with the roster spot (that 2nd rounder is not that valuable since it will be probably 55-60).
I think it wasn't a good decision... but I don't get the logic of the suggested wink-wink deal.
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Heard either Jason Ham or Aaron Bruski mention this as well on the Cowbell Kingdom podcast. But it was mentioned as more of a we'll hook you up a bit and you hook us up a bit.
 
'89 Kings Fan said:
I think Ray gets a reputation as a defender since he is not a good shooter, passer or penetrator, so obviously he must defend. But by any metric you look at he was atrocious on defense. Obviously management realized it too, (and he hadn't improved at all since we drafted him) was why he was dealt.
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I think saying that McCallum was atrocious on defense is just as extreme as saying he's a very good defender. He was neither! He had some good moments on defense, and he had his share of bad moments as well. Many times how well or badly he played on defense was related to who he was with on the floor. So it's not a simple black and white issue. If you go to 82 games and just look up defensive ratings, you get an overall picture of how good a defender a player is, but within the confines of the team he played on. For instance, Belinelli has a better defensive rating than any of the guards that played on the Kings last season.

1. Belinelli - 101.5
2. Miller - 102.8
3. Collison - 103.1
4. Sessions - 103.3
5. Stauskas - 105.5
6. McCallum - 106.4

So your right in the sense that McCallum is overrated as a defender. His rating was the worse on the team among guards. One common denominator with the Kings players, was that their defensive rating went up when on the floor with Cousins, and it went even higher when on the floor with Cousins and Thompson. So who you play with does matter. I think Belinelli is a good example. Most people don't think of him as a defender, but on the Spurs he put up a very good defensive number. It's helps to be surrounded by good team defenders.
 
bajaden said:
I think saying that McCallum was atrocious on defense is just as extreme as saying he's a very good defender. He was neither! He had some good moments on defense, and he had his share of bad moments as well. Many times how well or badly he played on defense was related to who he was with on the floor. So it's not a simple black and white issue. If you go to 82 games and just look up defensive ratings, you get an overall picture of how good a defender a player is, but within the confines of the team he played on. For instance, Belinelli has a better defensive rating than any of the guards that played on the Kings last season.

1. Belinelli - 101.5
2. Miller - 102.8
3. Collison - 103.1
4. Sessions - 103.3
5. Stauskas - 105.5
6. McCallum - 106.4

So your right in the sense that McCallum is overrated as a defender. His rating was the worse on the team among guards. One common denominator with the Kings players, was that their defensive rating went up when on the floor with Cousins, and it went even higher when on the floor with Cousins and Thompson. So who you play with does matter. I think Belinelli is a good example. Most people don't think of him as a defender, but on the Spurs he put up a very good defensive number. It's helps to be surrounded by good team defenders.
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And this is a great point. Which PG do you think is better off defensively as part of the Kings second unit: Ray Mac with Landry & Evans behind him or Curry with Cauley-Stein and Koufos back there?

I wasn't bothered at all by the McCallum trade. I was only bothered by the fact that he was traded only to bring in an even less experienced replacement with more questions surrounding him.
 
bajaden said:
I think saying that McCallum was atrocious on defense is just as extreme as saying he's a very good defender. He was neither! He had some good moments on defense, and he had his share of bad moments as well. Many times how well or badly he played on defense was related to who he was with on the floor. So it's not a simple black and white issue. If you go to 82 games and just look up defensive ratings, you get an overall picture of how good a defender a player is, but within the confines of the team he played on. For instance, Belinelli has a better defensive rating than any of the guards that played on the Kings last season.

1. Belinelli - 101.5
2. Miller - 102.8
3. Collison - 103.1
4. Sessions - 103.3
5. Stauskas - 105.5
6. McCallum - 106.4

So your right in the sense that McCallum is overrated as a defender. His rating was the worse on the team among guards. One common denominator with the Kings players, was that their defensive rating went up when on the floor with Cousins, and it went even higher when on the floor with Cousins and Thompson. So who you play with does matter. I think Belinelli is a good example. Most people don't think of him as a defender, but on the Spurs he put up a very good defensive number. It's helps to be surrounded by good team defenders.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that 82 games is a reliable source anymore... nba.com is a much more rliable source, and it offers more things.

Anyway, if you go by nba.com the list (DefRtg) will go like this:

1. Collison- 104.4
2. Ben- 104.5
3. Miller- 106.6
4. Stauskas- 108.4
5. McCallum- 109.2
6. Sessions- 110.3

I didn't include Belinelli (105.1, ranked 3rd on this list) because his DefRtg was made on a team far better defensively than our team- and Defensive rating doesn't try to neutralize that so it doesn't tell you anything... but stats does show Marco is a poor defender...

Per NBA.com Players shot 2.9% better than usual on him, which is the worst mark out of any Spurs rotation player.

His Defensive rating is 105.1, which once again is the worst mark out of any Spurs rotation players- the Spurs as a team have a much better rating at 99.6.
His defensive rating is one of the reasons he has the worst net rating out of any Spurs rotation player at 0.1 (8th on the team in offensive rating).

To complete the comparison- Players shot only 0.1% better on Ben (a far better mark than Belinelli's 2.9%), on a far worse defensive team, making him 3rd best at this stat in our team after Cousins and Gay (tied with DC).
And regarding defensive rating Ben's 104.5 is slightly better than Belinelli's, better than the team in general (106.5) and ranks third on our team after Cousins and DC.

And if you like real plus-minus, Ben's DRPM ranks him 18th in the league among SG's with a positive 0.71.
While Marco is among the league worst at 92 (out of 100) with an horrible -3.12.

So the stats seems to agree with the popular belief that Belinelli is a poor defender...
 
funkykingston said:
......
I hope the answers are yes, yes, no and net positive. But we can't pretend that the 3rd PG isn't an important role in a team hoping to fight for a playoff spot.
Click to expand...

I've never given much thought to the importance of the 3rd PG. It's been irrelevant to the Kings as far as I remember since I've became a fan. The supporters of the 3rd PG, including Twslam07 started convincing me its significance, when few games can be the difference making the playoffs. Would a 3rd stringer PG can fill that void, if one of our PGs goes down? I mean should we better target more reliable PGs instead of even Dre? When he's on, he can be the difference maker, but there were games he was totally ineffective last season and I have my doubts even if his legs would hold up.

Perhaps Vlade set the bar high and targeting one or two reliable PGs in the midseason, just in case OR they wouldn't sign as a 3rd now but would consider as 2nd later.
 
funkykingston said:
To be fair, we HAD a 2nd round pick who was MVP of Summer League and we dealt him to San Antonio. I like Curry's ability to score and while McCallum was relatively bland he was a guy that didn't hurt you while he was in. Slightly above average size, relatively effective defender, didn't turn the ball over, could score a bit etc.

I'm still not certain why he was traded. He seemed like a decent backup plan if Miller wasn't resigned. I know the rationale was that they'd lose him next offseason for nothing but that's what happens with half or more of the 3rd PGs each offseason.

Maybe Karl didn't like Ray's style of play, I don't know. But I DO know that barring an amazingly healthy season out of both Rondo and Collison that the Kings 3rd PG will play meaningful minutes this season. Odds are that player will be the backup PG for around 10-15 games and hopefully not more.

Can Curry defend NBA PGs? Can he be an effective scorer against bigger and more athletic defenders? Will he struggle to being the ball up against aggressive pressure? Will his presence on the court be a net positive or a net negative? I don't know the answers to any of these questions.

I hope the answers are yes, yes, no and net positive. But we can't pretend that the 3rd PG isn't an important role in a team hoping to fight for a playoff spot.
Click to expand...

Ray just isn't anything special and is hanging on for his NBA life. He got thrust into a role he wasn't ready for the past two seasons, sure, but that also gave us a much deeper look into a 2nd round pick than most teams get. He's a great energy guy, he goes all out and he's an average defender. However, that's about all he does from the PG spot. He can't run an offense, he can't get or finish at the rim, he not a reliable shooter, doesn't draw fouls, etc. I'll never talk bad about the guy and loved the fact he was one of the few guys who always busted his butt for us, but it doesn't change the fact that he's a fringe NBA player.

Seth has the luxury of being an unknown commodity. Tearing up the Summer League and D-league the last two seasons, lights out offensive shooter, etc. He has "potential" while we pretty much know who Ray is as a player. That's why he took his spot.
 
The_Jamal said:
Ray just isn't anything special and is hanging on for his NBA life. He got thrust into a role he wasn't ready for the past two seasons, sure, but that also gave us a much deeper look into a 2nd round pick than most teams get. He's a great energy guy, he goes all out and he's an average defender. However, that's about all he does from the PG spot. He can't run an offense, he can't get or finish at the rim, he not a reliable shooter, doesn't draw fouls, etc. I'll never talk bad about the guy and loved the fact he was one of the few guys who always busted his butt for us, but it doesn't change the fact that he's a fringe NBA player.

Seth has the luxury of being an unknown commodity. Tearing up the Summer League and D-league the last two seasons, lights out offensive shooter, etc. He has "potential" while we pretty much know who Ray is as a player. That's why he took his spot.
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He at least has the potential of having one elite skill that is very useful in the NBA: shooting. If the rest of the stuff can be good enough to get by, there's a chance he becomes a very valuable piece.
 
bajaden said:
I think saying that McCallum was atrocious on defense is just as extreme as saying he's a very good defender. He was neither!
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baskestball-reference.com said:
Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good (per minute) at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute.
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Defensive ratings is not a stat to be used to compare players from different teams. It was also created a decade ago and we have better tools at our disposal now. For instance:

Code: 
Ray
Defense Category	Diff%
Overall	                5.3
3 Pointers	        0.9
2 Pointers              7.5
Less Than 6 Ft	       17.8
Less Than 10 Ft	        9.5
Greater Than 15 Ft	4.7

Jimmer	
Defense Category	Diff%
Overall	                 2.1
3 Pointers	        -8.8
2 Pointers	         5.6
Less Than 6 Ft	        13.3
Less Than 10 Ft	        11.5
Greater Than 15 Ft	-6.3

The lower the number the better. In this case Diff% takes into account opposition since it's how much better (or worse) do your opponents shoot against their own shooting average.

Here's another one, Ray allowed 1.2 Point Per play when guarding Isolations. For players who guarded at least 50 last year, that is the worst in the league. As in dead last. Bennett was worse at 1.34 but he only guarded 29 last season. Yay #1 Draft Pick.

That's the worst one, but there were no play types Ray even approached being average. Maybe the Spurs think they can teach him how to be a good defender. But he certainly didn't demonstrate it last year.
 
Bricklayer said:
its really too bad he's not 6'5", because he's still a SG. If he had full SG size you could call him a SG with solid passing/playmaking skills and pair him with Marco as pocket Manus. But at 6'2" he's still just caught.

-- mediocre athlete, poor one at PG
-- sophisticated offensive game. Just has that feel for it, and as a SG the ballhandling to create his own shot.
-- everything is just slow though. No quickness or explosiveness. The right moves, but superior NBA athletes might be able to recover on them.
-- defensively simply cannot guard Russel Westbrook. Ever. There is no hope. Or Tyreke. No physical skills for it. In that way there is some Jimmer similarity. Even when Jimmer was willing, his body wasn't always able.
-- still not a PG. Nothing he does is much more than an above average passing SG. He's probably less PG than Belli. And quicknesswise the ITs of the world will dust him.

While we are calling him 3rd PG because of our roster, would not surprise me at all if Karl uses him at SG. He has a long tradition of using big points or combo guards at SG to get extra passing/ballhandling ability, and damn the defensive consequences.
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The crazy thing is that we already had a version of that player on the Summer League roster in Corey Hawkins but the dude got hurt before he could show what he has
 
Ray is okay and so is Curry. But Curry has all the reasons to play his best basketball ever on the court this coming season. His older brother garnering the MVP title this past season might be enough for him to light a big fire under his butt - sibling rivalry. So, I tend to want Curry to play for us this coming season may it be practice games or 5-10 minutes in real games.
 
Prince_XY said:
Ray is okay and so is Curry. But Curry has all the reasons to play his best basketball ever on the court this coming season. His older brother garnering the MVP title this past season might be enough for him to light a big fire under his butt - sibling rivalry. So, I tend to want Curry to play for us this coming season may it be practice games or 5-10 minutes in real games.
Click to expand...
I love a player with a chip on his shoulder...
 
curryshotchart.jpg


Whole lot of green.
 
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