Scary Thought(s) Ahead??????

[Glenn]

To be clear, I have never taken the "we have never won when IT shoots more than 17 times" as anything that implies cause and effect. There are far too many other variables. It just was a short hand way to dig at the pizza guys. It means nothing more than team's implication that achieving 20-5-5 meant we had drafted a Lebron or Oscar. When Ray goes 5 for 20, I'll be more concerned. As it is now, he is nothing but a rookie playing his first serious minutes and he is finding his way under extreme circumstances.

 

[The_Jamal]

Bingo



Here's the reason why I hate these kind of "stats": The implication is that if Isaiah took one or two less shots, we would have won those games.

Isaiah took 16 shots in a game, perfect! But wait, if he takes one more, our chances of winning are gone

Here's something else to consider: 6 of the games Isaiah took 17 or more shots came when Demarcus sat with injury. Another four games came before the Rudy Gay trade. Now, I haven't gone game-by-game to see what the context of each 17+ shot game was because thats a stupid waste of time. But its obvious context is important.

But here's the rub regarding the number of shots the PG takes: regardless of whether its Isaiah or McCallum, as long as the player is being efficient with his offense and isn't freezing out more efficient teammates, the number of shots is irrelevant. People who are bashing Isaiah and Ray for taking good shots are closeminded about a PGs role in an offense. People who bash Isaiah for it but herald it from Ray are being hypocritical. End of story.

Oh stop it. This extremely well-reasoned logic has no place in the discussion when it comes from IT. It's far more preferable to make up silly claims about him like he's not an efficient scorer.

I've never the fascination of forcing shots on a player. If a guy has shown he can make a shot, and he has a good look, then take it! If that means we feed 15 straight Travis Outlaw open 3s, then by golly, let em rain.

 

[pshn80]

Why is Ray taking so many shots? Is the offense geared towards chucking PGs?

Did we win?

 

[Bricklayer]

Oh stop it. This extremely well-reasoned logic has no place in the discussion when it comes from IT. It's far more preferable to make up silly claims about him like he's not an efficient scorer.

I've never the fascination of forcing shots on a player. If a guy has shown he can make a shot, and he has a good look, then take it! If that means we feed 15 straight Travis Outlaw open 3s, then by golly, let em rain.

No, PGs in particular are different.

Any player, if they start munching shots, can begin to have a deleterious effect on his teammates shooting abilities, because they get out of rhythm, never know when a shot is coming, can't build any feel. Call it Iverson effect. But when a POINT guard stats gunning up shots, the effect is much more pernicious. The point guard gets the honor of handling the ball first on nearly every possession. If he uses that honor for selfish purposes, then its not even a question of the offense going away from certain guys and resulting in cold streaks, its a question of guys not even getting to touch the ball. Not even getting a chance to see if they have a good shot or not. if Demarcus Cousins takes 50 shots in a game, at the very least 2 players have touched the ball on every one of those possessions (well, given his ballhandling skills, maybe on 45 of the 50). If Isaiah, or any other PG takes 50 shots, there doesn't have to have been anyone else touching the ball/getting an opportunity. That's also why "shots" are not the problem so much as shots off your own dribble, shots without passes, pullups on the break with nobody underneath etc. If Peja Stojakovic takes 30 shots in a game, Peja is not to blame. He exists at the end of the tunnel, the finish of the play. He gets 30 shots its because of your plan, not his, and lots of people are involved in him getting all those shots. When a PG does it? Unless he's a dribble it up, hand it off, and go spot up PG, then he's calling his own number, and other guys can easily get frozen out.

All of that is before we get to the tendency for IT and most quick PG scorers to want to accelerate and scramble the game for heir own purposes, resulting in easier looks for themselves, but not necessarily playing to the strengths of the team or resulting in wins.

 

[pshn80]

Well there's a legitimate question there somewhere. As well a bit of a problem if Ray and IT are both here next year. We are dead last in the league in assists. There have been some practical effects that will have to be addressed sooner or later.

You don't get assists passing to Cuz and passing to Cuz is what we want them to do and it is also what they are doing.

 

[pshn80]

Seriously.. People complain that IT shoots too much then everyone is gushing over Ray even though he's taking the most shots.



So it's OK to complain about IT as being a shoot first PG but it's not OK to talk about Ray that way.. OK, got it.

You're beginning to catch on.

 

[Glenn]

You don't get assists passing to Cuz and passing to Cuz is what we want them to do and it is also what they are doing.

Same with most of the passes to Rudy on the perimeter. Both Cuz and Rudy go 1v1 or 1v2 and that is not an assist. Now if Rudy or Cuz pass for an assist it might be a hockey assist and still have value. It just crossed my feeble mind that a pg running the Kings offense may be doomed by having a low assist number or at least a number limited by some passes to Cuz and Rudy.

Maybe we are reduced to watching the game and not analyzing stats. Whatta concept.

 

[Bricklayer]

You don't get assists passing to Cuz and passing to Cuz is what we want them to do and it is also what they are doing.

Its a legit point on the post feeds -- and I think one of the biggest advantages Ray has over IT is that with his size he's able to more easily feed Cuz in the post. But there are a LOT of passes that have nothing to do with feeding Cuz in the post. And you tend to rack up more assists where you aren't throwing it at the hoop 15-20 times a game either.

 

[VF21]

Depends on if Malone is actually running this type of offense or not. If Malone isn't then Ray does need to be reigned in, if Malone is then Ray can shoot all he wants. Also, I would think a lot of people here need to apologize to the Pizza Guy for calling him a ball hog (since obviously Malone is running that type of offense here). IMO Yes, when watching the games it really does look like he's telling the PGs to shoot if they cannot find an open man.

People here are a bit overexcited about Ray. He hasn't proven a thing yet. Give it a couple years before we say if he's a longtime King starting PG or not.

Sorry, but I'm going to choose to be excited now about Ray and what he's showing on the court. You are, of course, entitled to hold back and be reserved but I'm a lot older than you are. I'm going to take these moments as they come along.

You and some others insist on comparing Ray to IT. I'm not doing any such thing and I'm not going to apologize to IT for thinking that there have been too many times when he's taken the shot before assessing the situation.

Can't we just be happy about Ray doing so well? I cannot imagine why people have to find the dark lining to every single stupid cloud.

 

[Gary]

No... 2 games does not make a trend....but the 15+ games with IT was a trend whether it meant something or not.... I see a difference in the offense with both PGs.....the defense from Ray is certainly better than IT

Ok, let me put this another way. The team didn't lose those 15+ games because IT took 17 shots. It's just an anomaly. Kinda like the one that if Cousins only grabs 8 boards in a game then we have never won, but if he grabs 9 then we are .500+, and then 10 we are only .333%. (those stats are NOT real, it's just used as an example of how people use those kind of stats to try to prove a point in their favor).

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

No, PGs in particular are different.

Any player, if they start munching shots, can begin to have a deleterious effect on his teammates shooting abilities, because they get out of rhythm, never know when a shot is coming, can't build any feel. Call it Iverson effect. But when a POINT guard stats gunning up shots, the effect is much more pernicious. The point guard gets the honor of handling the ball first on nearly every possession. If he uses that honor for selfish purposes, then its not even a question of the offense going away from certain guys and resulting in cold streaks, its a question of guys not even getting to touch the ball. Not even getting a chance to see if they have a good shot or not. if Demarcus Cousins takes 50 shots in a game, at the very least 2 players have touched the ball on every one of those possessions (well, given his ballhandling skills, maybe on 45 of the 50). If Isaiah, or any other PG takes 50 shots, there doesn't have to have been anyone else touching the ball/getting an opportunity. That's also why "shots" are not the problem so much as shots off your own dribble, shots without passes, pullups on the break with nobody underneath etc. If Peja Stojakovic takes 30 shots in a game, Peja is not to blame. He exists at the end of the tunnel, the finish of the play. He gets 30 shots its because of your plan, not his, and lots of people are involved in him getting all those shots. When a PG does it? Unless he's a dribble it up, hand it off, and go spot up PG, then he's calling his own number, and other guys can easily get frozen out.

All of that is before we get to the tendency for IT and most quick PG scorers to want to accelerate and scramble the game for heir own purposes, resulting in easier looks for themselves, but not necessarily playing to the strengths of the team or resulting in wins.

If Isaiah or Ray want to take and make 50 three pointers a game for a season, I honestly wouldn't care if Demarcus got another shot again because we would be scoring at least 150 ppg and we wouldn't lose another game

 

[The_Jamal]

No, PGs in particular are different.

Any player, if they start munching shots, can begin to have a deleterious effect on his teammates shooting abilities, because they get out of rhythm, never know when a shot is coming, can't build any feel. Call it Iverson effect. But when a POINT guard stats gunning up shots, the effect is much more pernicious. The point guard gets the honor of handling the ball first on nearly every possession. If he uses that honor for selfish purposes, then its not even a question of the offense going away from certain guys and resulting in cold streaks, its a question of guys not even getting to touch the ball. Not even getting a chance to see if they have a good shot or not. if Demarcus Cousins takes 50 shots in a game, at the very least 2 players have touched the ball on every one of those possessions (well, given his ballhandling skills, maybe on 45 of the 50). If Isaiah, or any other PG takes 50 shots, there doesn't have to have been anyone else touching the ball/getting an opportunity. That's also why "shots" are not the problem so much as shots off your own dribble, shots without passes, pullups on the break with nobody underneath etc. If Peja Stojakovic takes 30 shots in a game, Peja is not to blame. He exists at the end of the tunnel, the finish of the play. He gets 30 shots its because of your plan, not his, and lots of people are involved in him getting all those shots. When a PG does it? Unless he's a dribble it up, hand it off, and go spot up PG, then he's calling his own number, and other guys can easily get frozen out.

All of that is before we get to the tendency for IT and most quick PG scorers to want to accelerate and scramble the game for heir own purposes, resulting in easier looks for themselves, but not necessarily playing to the strengths of the team or resulting in wins.

Is that all on IT though? How many possessions does he REALLY just 1v1 showtime without a pass during the course of a game? End of quarters and transition opportunities? The occasional possession where he beats his defender for a lay-up or wide-open mid-range shot?

I'd say Rudy is far more guilty, especially in the half-court, of hero-balling and taking a shot for himself. But guess what, he more often than not (with us at least) has turned it into points, or a trip to the FT line. Cuz is also guilty of getting the ball and staring at his defender for 5 seconds before making a move. But he's turned it into points.

High USG and volume shooters are only a problem if you don't make them, ala Monta Ellis, Brandon Jennings, JR Smith, etc. Luckily for us, our 3 volume shooters are all in the upper-echelon efficiency bracket for their positions and respective USG. Ridiculously enough, they are the 3 most efficient players on our team. Add a Kyle Korver type of shooter and the offense looks hell of a lot different.

 

[rainmaker]

This is getting ridiculous. Actually, been ridiculous for awhile now. Boogie/Rudy/IT have different roles.

Boogie is supposed to go 1v1. We're supposed to play through him as our top option. He's supposed to attack and draw doubles. If that double comes, pass to the open guy. If not, you're the most talented big in the game so go at your defender every time. That's what elite top options do. You play through them as their defender can't stop them 1v1 and when that help comes, they open the game up to everyone else and create essentially a 4v3 situation.

Rudy as the 2nd option also is charged with attacking until the help comes. It's why he's a 2nd option. He has the ability to not only succeed in 1v1 situations but also has the ability to draw doubles. His job is to be in attack mode. A large part of who is given the responsibility of attacking being their main responsibility is do they ultimately have the ability to draw doubles, draw help and shift the defense? That's the most valuable aspect of it, the attention guys like Boogie and Rudy demand. Makes everyone else's lives easier.

Neither Boogie or Rudy has the main responsibility of getting others involved. That generally comes after they draw the help.

A PG however, especially when he's not a 1st or 2nd option most certainly does carry the responsibility of creating for others, getting them the rock in positions to succeed. It sure as hell isn't Ben's or Reggie's responsibility. Comparing Boogie and Rudy forcing shots to a PG forcing shots entirely misses the point. Boogie and Rudy don't carry the responsibility of getting others into a rhythm and into the flow nearly to the extent of a PG. Having a 1st or 2nd option force shots every now and then is perfectly normal as their job is to be aggressive, score, attack, shift the defense, make defenders make choices, etc. That's different than a 3rd option PG doing the same as he's not only taking the rock out of the hands of his top two options but he also bears the responsibility of getting and keeping everyone involved.

As far as being high USG and efficient, you have to look past that at the big picture to really see the effect. What separates role players from stars is generally the ability to draw doubles, command the attention of multiple defenders and open the game up for others. Role players don't draw that same attention. If you don't command that attention, you play off the attention others draw. So yes, you can point to a role player being efficient, as that's good in a certain context, but in the bigger picture if that role player is high USG and is not drawing doubles or demanding help, you're letting the defense off easy. It's tougher for a team to defend a guy who you must help on then recover. Much easier to defend against a team if/when his PG by choice takes the rock out of the hands of his top two options and shoots himself, efficient or not. No need to double him. No need to send help. He's actually helping the opponent defend.