Sacramento Kings
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Of course you were, but if that's an attempt throw shade its ridiculous. Yeah, our 24yr old coming off the serious illness is supposed to suddenly have absorbed leadership lessons from history's great leaders and rally a weak roster all by himself.
And that's the thing., The true idiocy of this: DeMarcus Cousins WAS becoming a leader, still is. These last few games he's absolutely been trying. He's repeatedly saying the right things about defense, he;s trying. But he and Malone were a team. Something the idiots in charge either missed or perhaps even resented/were afraid of. They worked together. Mentor/mentee leaders, and that's where our leadership came from, same way it does on every great team. The best player and the coach working together to set a tone. But then we killed the coach and threw all the leadership responsibilities on a kid until recently bemoaned for his lack of self control, coming off a serious illness and just trying to get his own game back. Corbin appears so impotent he seems almost invisible. I wonder if he is even allowed to say anything in practice, or if the guys just have to practice themselves and set their own gameplans.
The idiocy of this move is all about leadership. Its the one they took away, and in a longer term, the damage they did to DeMarcus learning how to become one. All you had to do was say no Vivek. You were a fool not too. A couple more years of Malone and everything is ingrained, and by that time, who knows, maybe Cuz is such an established star and leader he can do it alone if he has to. But he didn't get that time. And now you have him all alone trying to learn on the fly with a group of guys who are not natural winners/defenders.
Well, see, that's the thing: I make no such recognition. I actually don't believe that D'Alessandro built a roster that fit Malone's style. What I believe is that Malone developed a style that fit the players that D'Alessandro gave him. You can hardly say that D'Alessandro supplied Malone with players that fit Malone's coaching style, when he's a defensive coach, and basically everyone on the team is a bad defender.
I don't think that Malone and D'Alessandro were ever in sync. I think that D'Alessandro put together a roster that he actually thought could run his preferred style. And that Malone took a good look at the assembled roster, and said, "Uh, no it can't. But this might work, instead." And I think that D'Alessandro got a good look at what system Malone wanted to run with the roster he put together, and said, "DO NOT WANT". And I think that D'Alessandro and Malone both made a 'power play', D'Alessandro won, and Malone got fired. I don't think that they were ever on the same page.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
And that would be a huge problem. Exactly the huge problem feared.
I mocked Vivek and PDA's people sense on twitter, and man if I don't fear that's a huge issue. Being able to crunch a number, but not understand how people interact = not being able to understand things like chemistry and leadership. And it also means you should not be in charge of a department where human interaction is everything.
Thank you for that. It is clear and logical. However, the difference I have with it is that the person hired to have Vivek's ear on basketball matters is Chris Mullin and that leads me to conclude that:
1). Mullin is paid to do nothing else but counsel Ranadive on basketball matters IF Vivek wants such counsel,
2). PDA is the messenger and the negotiated of deals.
I'm beginning to believe that matters with Malone, team "style" and "pace", and the rest of the matters troubling the team lie at the feet of Ranadive as advised by Mullin. You could be tight in your assessment abovef but, more and more, I believe mine is much closer to the truth. So, be mad primarily with Vivek.
Chubbs
Starter
That's the horrific misconception the FO also had. But why? Demarcus only recently has shown real signs of leadership. But, for only a few months with slip ups along the way. What on earth would make anyone think he could shoulder the responsibility of being this team's best player and leader in the locker room?
Uncia03
Starter
I don't believe that PDA is just a messenger and the person who works on personnel deals.
(If I did believe that, then I would be cutting PDA some slack, just as I cut Petrie a ton of slack because it was clear that his hands were being tied by the Maloofs in the end times)
The reason that I believe that PDA is responsible is because both PDA and Mullin flew to Vegas together to convince Vivek to fire Malone.
So we know that this isn't something that 'came out of nowhere' to PDA. PDA was actually working towards getting Malone fired, so he certainly is culpable and should be held accountable.
Had PDA carried the same philosophy that Malone had, then I could see him giving him a pass, but he actively tried to have Malone fired and it looks clear that it was eventually going to become a situation where it was a 'him or me' situation, so I can see how he believed it was in his best interest to push for Malone's firing.
As to style of play...look back at PDA's first interview when taking the job. He came from Denver and he said that his preferred style of play was to have 5 athletes running up and down the court together...so the style of play is not something you can just pin on Mullin...it's something that PDA has preached since day 1.
My hope (And I think this is the new hope for a lot of fans) is that this whole pace thing will turn out to produce such horrible results that Vivek has no choice but to conclude that a style more conducive to Cousins will be best.
The biggest fear is that we lose Cousins before that realization sets in.
We'll see...
captain bill
All-Star
Okay you need to support this argument. Let's look at the moves:
1. Replacing Tyreke with Rudy. While these are separate trades, my gut is that PDA had discussed acquiring Gay with Masai before he traded Gay, and perhaps specifically requested Vasquez from NOP based on Masai's stated interest.
Either way, this move allowed DMC to play around the basket, instead of playing at the elbows to allow Reke to drive. Rudy at the elbows + DMC on the inside is far more conducive to a smash-mouth, grind-it-style.
2. Drafted BMC as a 3-and-D guy. No explanation needed here for why this fits.
3. Replaced IT with Collison, a better defender who plays a more controlled, deliberate style, vs Isaiah, who is a prototypical Nellyball player.
Those are the three major moves that re-vamped out starting 5 and made it a force under Malone. I think we can agree that the bench is a work in progress, and has underwhelmed - both in terms of who PDA got for it and how MM played it into the rotation.
Please explain to me how the above moves demonstrate a desire to play a more run and gun, no defense style.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
Look at how many times DeMarcus has mentioned the word "defense" in his post game pressers and combining the fact that Corbin never calls timeouts and is silent on the sidelines I don't blame the players one bit for trying to mail the season in on defense. Maybe if they keep allowing all these 110+ points every night they can go ahead and show how ridiculous the term "pace" is as far as producing wins in this league. Lottery dwellers for ever more until a philosophy is established and I hope to see that happen in my lifetime, that would be ideal.
I'm not trying to throw shade and Cousins... I was simply pointing out that it goes for everyone, even our leader who IS Demarcus. How is that shading him in any way Brick?
randymoss1881
Starter
Meanwhile George Karl is just out there waiting for our call......
George Karl @CoachKarl22
How much longer is @KingJames out? ............
Colton Henderson @ColtJH
@CoachKarl22 you coming to sac or nah
@ColtJH phone not ringing at the moment......
Karl just needs to move on and wait for clev/NO jobs. When you have a hall of famer begging for the job and he doesn't get it cause the clown FO wants Mullin/Jackson that's when you know you are in trouble.
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
When it's clear the front office has thrown the towel in on the season, it's probably hard to find something to "play for" as a player.....
Pete said that anyone can run and its a state of mind. He took Mbah a Moute and turned him into DWill. Luc was the closest thing that resembled a defensive oriented player and when Luc finally started getting minutes, remember him in the Clippers game shutting down CP3, he got shipped out. This roster was put together with the idea of running from way back. This roster was not put together with Malone in mind otherwise you would have seen at least one defensive oriented player brought in. It's pretty obvious looking back now.
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
Guys we have to trust Pete. He knows what he's doing, he said so himself
I believe that Cousins is our leader. Every team in the NBA has a leader. Even the 6ers have a leader in MCW. If you're correct, and the Kings do not have a player who can lead the rest of his teammates, then that's a major problem for the Kings. Cousins HAS to be our leader. He's proven that he can lead the Kings, but he's still learning. He's very inconsistent, but part of the blame can be thanked to the leadership up top.
When I talk about leadership, I don't mean off the court, I mean on the court. I honestly believe that the only player on the Kings that's an established and true leader on the floor is Casspi. Guy brings it 100% every night and encourages his teammates. High energy, high motor, and wants to get everyone involved. Cousins is getting there
Glenn
Hall of Famer
No matter how hard you try to turn our team into a running team, you always will have to figure out what to do with Cousins. Cousins does not fit on a running team. I watched him in the third quarter and he looked very tired and at times barely made it to the half court line.
Jerry Reynolds said that when the Nuggets turned up the speed in the 3rd quarter it was what the Kings wanted as they wanted to play a running game also. I'm not blaming Jerry for anything except I think he was simply parroting what he heard our coaches say.
We can't play a running game unless we play a very slow team. We will get out run a lot of the time. If we play smash mouth basketball, there are very few teams that can beat us. It all seems simple to me.
Jerry Reynolds said that when the Nuggets turned up the speed in the 3rd quarter it was what the Kings wanted as they wanted to play a running game also. I'm not blaming Jerry for anything except I think he was simply parroting what he heard our coaches say.
We can't play a running game unless we play a very slow team. We will get out run a lot of the time. If we play smash mouth basketball, there are very few teams that can beat us. It all seems simple to me.
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
To people who love and know basketball, it is simple.
To computer geeks who think they know sports, apparently it is not
captain bill
All-Star
Non-responsive.
Saying "running is a state of mind" is a cop-out to not address the 3 substantive moves I listed. It's also a PR toe-the-company-line statement by PDA, who clearly did not go after running fast-paced players (otherwise Tyreke and Isaiah would still be on the roster). You could just as easily say "defense is a state of mind" and you don't need to acquire defensive players.
Mbah a Moute and DWill are both project players. MaM isn't exactly DPOY, anyways. While both contracts expire this year, DWill is younger and paid $2MM more, making him a more attractive asset to try to grab a pick from a team looking g to make a salary dump (which is exactly what PDA tried to do in asking for DET's first round pick in exchange for taking Josh Smith's contract).
PDA brought in BMC and DC, both defensive upgrades. Swapping Reke for Gay = DMC anchoring the paint = more offensive rebounds and put-backs = stopping opponents from getting on the run = slowing down the pace of the game and focusing on the half court.
I'll keep repeating these points until the PDA = vermin crowd acknowledges them instead of falling back on "b-b-but Williams! Landry! Jazz director!"
You seem to be experiencing a few concept errors:
- There's no question that acquiring Gay was a good trade, but my push back would be that you're incorrect on why it was a good trade, or even why the trade was made. Your suggestion that Evans was traded, and Gay acquired in order to free up the paint for Cousins is not supported by the fact that a full quarter of the season was played after Evans was traded, and before Gay was traded for, that appeared to have no impact on whether Cousins operated from the elbow or not. Who was keeping Cousins out of the paint the first twenty games of last season, such that we needed to trade for Gay to correct it? Patrick Patterson? Chuck Hayes? The Gay trade was a good trade because he was the best player we could have gotten back for the players we needed to get rid of, but your understanding of the motives behind the trade is flawed.
- You are seriously misremembering both the pre-draft scouting reports on Ben McLemore, and the post-draft analysis. That kid was absolutely not drafted to be a '3 and D' guy; he was drafted because he was BPA, and because he was considered to have the most upside of any player in the draft. McLemore has been beginning to develop into a 3 and D guy because of Malone's influence, not because of that's what he was drafted for.
- Better defender does not equal good defender. Darren Collison is a better defender than Isaiah Thomas, but so are a lot of other point guards in the NBA. Collison is a more disciplined point guard than Thomas, but there's no part of his game that says controlled and deliberate; he wants to push the ball as much, if not more, than anyone else on the team.
- And let's not overlook his other actions that don't support your theory giving up Lopez for nothing in the Evans trade. Not making a serious bid for Iguodala. Trading Mbah a Moute for the positionless Williams. Signing Landry. D'Alessandro either whiffed on or flat gave up a lot of Malone flavored guys, for several guys who are not.
I understand that that's what you believe. But, you're wrong, though.
Haha.....I just answered your points, whether you like it or not. Your GM believes that anyone can run. He's on record for everyone to hear that. You can't just dismiss that. And then you justify Mbah a Moute as not a DPOY candidate, so therefore he's not a defensive first player? That's your argument? PDA brought in Gay as a no brainer move as he continued to turn over the roster.
I'll say you have some interesting ideas on the moves but I completely disagree.
Just curious, do you believe that if anyone is a leader on this team, it's Casspi? IF he's healthy?
captain bill
All-Star
I actually agree with a lot of the points you bring up, but I don't think it fundamentally changes the fact that the starting 5 assembled by PDA is clearly one that plays best at a slow, deliberate style.
As to your points:
1- I agree that the Tyreke trade being a set-up for Gay is mostly speculation, but I think it's supported by the evidence that we have. First, we know it was PDA's goal from Day 1 to acquire Gay. Second, we know that PDA has a good relationship with Masai, so it's very reasonable to think that they discussed the contours of a possible trade, and what assets Masai was looking for, from day one and on an ongoing basis. Third, it doesn't mean much that GV played here for a while. He was shipped out pretty much the moment the Kings were allowed to trade him, so it's not a stretch to think TOR-SAC had agreed in principle to the framework of a trade that they had to wait to execute due to NBA trade rules.
I agree that it would've been great to get Lopez. I don't know why we let him go to PDX for basically nothing, so I'll give you that point.
2- the scouting report on BMac was excellent shooter with freakishly high athleticism. That's generally how you describe all 3 and D players.
EDIT: also agree that MM did a fantastic job developing and managing BMac. I'm not trying to trash Malone, I'm arguing that PDA has done a better job than were giving him credit for.
3- I agree. DC is not a perfect PG but he is better suited to a half-court hard-nosed defensive team than IT was. Which is exactly my point.
4- Iggy I'll give you, how PDA handled that pissed me off. But it's obvious he got wind that Iggy was playing us for leverage against GSW (or at least PDA thought it was), so the offer-pull wasn't reflective of PDA's basketball philosophy. You also have to admit that if you think Iggy fits the Malone philosophy, then PDA offering Iggy a contract is evidence if PDA and MM being on the same page.
I addressed DWill above. That was a pretty marginal move in terms of team impact, and I think it was more about managing trade assets than anything. And Luc really isn't the caliber of player to lose sleep over, anyways
Let's all be honest...because I don't think a lot of people here want to say it. The reason why Cousins' can't run is because he's a 270lb Center that can get tired easily.
That is why this run & gun thing won't work for our team.
Under our "slow" pace with Malone, Coach barely convinced Cousins to NOT be the last one over on offense/defense.
Fast pace doesn't fit our scheme because we don't have the players for it. Unless Cousins become AD-Lite, absolute 0 question that this run & gun idea is poopoo.
That is why this run & gun thing won't work for our team.
Under our "slow" pace with Malone, Coach barely convinced Cousins to NOT be the last one over on offense/defense.
Fast pace doesn't fit our scheme because we don't have the players for it. Unless Cousins become AD-Lite, absolute 0 question that this run & gun idea is poopoo.
In reverse order:
- It's not a matter of "losing sleep," that's a red Herring. It's a matter of trading a guy who's first thought was defense for a guy who couldn't spell defense, if you spotted him all the consonants.
- I will make no such admission. As we have seen, both in Denver and Golden State (gee, what was D'Alessandro's background, again?), Iguodala fits a running style. He just so happens to be one of the few players who also fits a defensive style. D'Alessandro wanted him because of the former, not the latter.
- He is better suited to a half-court style, primarily in the sense that he is mature enough to know that he's not the star of the Sacramento Kings, and who to get the ball to.
- "Most talented player in the draft", "most upside", and "can become a good defender" is not how you describe a '3 and D' player.
Now that's how you describe a '3 and D' guy
- Who the hell said anything about Vasquez? My point is that you said that the trade was made to allow Cousins to play around the basket, and my response was that they guys we got rid of to acquire Gay were not preventing Cousins from operating around the basket. Your claims regarding the motives behind the trade are therefore false.
????
No.
This whole " trust me" crap really bothers me. If it was Popovich, Larry Bird or Jerry West saying it, then I can believe it. After all, they have years of NBA experience as a player and as front office personnel. If it was them making that kind of decision that our front office has done, then at least I can say I don't like it but I can trust what you're doing since you have a whole lot of experience. What has PDA done to warrant my trust? NBA playing experience? None, he was a lawyer and an agent which speaks nothing of how to build a team. Front office experience? He was probably the third or fourth assistant GM with the Nuggest in also a very limited amount of time. His credentials are essentially crap to be making that kind of statement.
Yes, and the beatings will continue until morale improves.
You're totally off-base.
I'm guessing the agents of the players we're really interested in will glance down, see who thecall is from and hit the "decline" button.
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captain bill
All-Star
You still aren't addressing my main point: the starting 5 assembled by PDA is far more suited to the half court defense-first style of play than the one he inherited.
5- I'm saying that we essentially traded Reke for Gay to move DMC to the middle. You haven't responded to that, and are instead bring up PPat and Hayes, which is pretty irrelevant to my point.
4- BMac was DEFINITELY described as 3 and D, it's ridiculous that you try to argue this:
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/6/4/4378806/ben-mclemore-scouting-report-nba-draft-2013
There are like 10 articles there. They all say he can shoot, is athletic, and can defend, but can't create his own shot. At least 3 articles explicitly use the phrase "3 and D." The fact that there were other defensive players in the draft doesn't mean much, esp when we had a gaping hole at SG.
3- great, glad you agree he was an upgrade in all the categories that you value.
2- I honestly don't see your point. You admit Iggy is a good defender but just assume PDA wanted him for other skills, and you make this assumption because you are already convinced that PDA doesn't like defenders. As with your arguments about DC vs IT, you're admitting that PDA was making good moves but you refuse to give him credit for them. If you don't see how duplicitous this is, I can't argue with you. If PDA managed to get Lebron, you'd probably say that PDA is inept and just likes players who wear headbands.
1- Luc just isn't that good, sorry. There's a reason he bounced around and ended up in Philly. Seriously. Philadelphia. You're crying over a player who's been injured, is on the decline, played like garbage while he was in a Kings uniform, and ended up getting picked up by a team that is tanking harder than any team in NBA history? You are also ignoring my point that DWill is a more palatable player in a salary dump trade, since both contracts end this year but a team that takes DWill would get an extra $2mm in relief at the end of the season - and that is exactly the deal that PDA offered the Pistons in an attempt to get a first round pick for them.
