Rumor about November ballot proposition

[BigWaxer]

If the proposal is similar to what has been hinted at, the sales tax would be for multiple public projects. Since it would not be specifically and only for a new arena, it would only take a majority vote, not 2/3s. That's apparently how it was done in San Jose.

I am not sure if I understood it the same way. What I heard (may be wrong it happens sometime )

There would be two measures on the ballot, one for the tax increase and one that says "should the tax money be used for a new arena" Now don't quote me on that but thats what I thought was happening.

 

[VF21]

I don't think there will be two measures, BigWaxer. From what I've understood, it would be ONE measure with the proper wording to enable it to pass without the 2/3 requirement.

Two measures would be pretty dumb, IMHO. If one passes and the other doesn't, you haven't gained anything.

 

[BigWaxer]

Yup very true VF and thats what I thought when I first heard it. I swear it was on KCRA or News10 a few weeks ago, could of been a bad dream about the arena HAHA

 

[kennadog]

I am not sure if I understood it the same way. What I heard (may be wrong it happens sometime )

There would be two measures on the ballot, one for the tax increase and one that says "should the tax money be used for a new arena" Now don't quote me on that but thats what I thought was happening.

Yes that is what would happen. Althought I believe the wording would be more that should we build a new arena and may mention the sales tax, but only as one potential use of the revenues. So you want the sales tax increase for multiple public projects, but you will also ask in a separate measure if the people want to buil an arena with some of that money. Something like that.

And I'm sure the only way other cities and the county were willing to participate is because they are being promised a piece of the sales tax pie for projects in their jurisdictions. They just haven't necessarily identified a particular use at the time of this ballot.

 

[VF21]

Hrm. I could have sworn it wasn't that way. Oh well...

Having to have two measures pass certainly doesn't thrill me in the least.

 

[BRad1055]

I am not saying I dont believe u vf21 cause I know most of ur things u have posted on here have turned out true except the Whisnent thing which I am glad about, anyway Eric hogue has a political type talk show on 1380 here in Sac and he has "inside sources" with the politicians here in Sacramento and they said or actually he said last week that this issue will for sure be on the ballot in November.

 

[VF21]

If he said that, he was extremely premature. And the people who "leaked" it to him should be ashamed of themselves. It's not a "for sure" by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[kennadog]

Hrm. I could have sworn it wasn't that way. Oh well...

Having to have two measures pass certainly doesn't thrill me in the least.

Doesn't thrill me either and it may not end up that way. The idea is to avoid having to get a 2/3rds vote on a sales tax increase that would be for an arena and an arena only.

I hate the 2/3rds requirement. Its so undemocratic and leads to a tyranny of the minority. There have been measures that passed with well over 50% or even 60%, but don't get that 2/3rds.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Frank Redd is sounding like a fool on 1140 right now, he really has no real arguement in the arena thing, and isnt presenting any real, factual arguement. I hope not many of the 'nay' sayers to the arena are listening right now, it's just putting more fodder in their cannons.

 

[ShatteredVision]

People just need to vote in large numbers. Or at least remember to vote.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

I get a sinking feeling everytime I hear a 'nay' sayer on the radio, because for every 1 of them on the air, theirs 1000 just like each one that doesnt care about any facts, and will vote 'no' regardless of what they heard. It's just not fair, us losing our heart...our only team. And I would NEVER support an expansion team if the NBA wanted to give that to us down the road...if this fails and the Kings leave...I'm moving...dont know where, but I'm moving.

 

[zeke04]

If they come to an agreement it is going to take a huge combined effort from the city, county and the maloofs to change the opinion of the voters. An all out biltz will be necessary.

As seen even in this thread there are people saying it will fail when they don't even know what the deal is.

 

[Purple Reign]

If the proposal is similar to what has been hinted at, the sales tax would be for multiple public projects. Since it would not be specifically and only for a new arena, it would only take a majority vote, not 2/3s. That's apparently how it was done in San Jose.

That makes plenty sense. I hope that is the way it goes. 66 percent is an alarming goal.

 

[BRad1055]

I hope it never happens, but if the Kings left and the NBA gave us an expansion team I would support it.

 

[Warhawk]

Ok, a couple of items:

There is nothing "wrong" with the foundation supporting the existing structure. It isn't "lousy". It just wasn't engineered, designed or built to handle a structure renovation, with the additional dead and live loads and probable increased seismic loading due to California Building Code and Uniform Building Code updates and more modern design practices and analysis.

Also, as I understand it, there are two issues to be on the ballot (if this gets hammered out), unless things have changed recently. As stated here:

http://www.sacbee.com/content/sports/basketball/kings/story/14261224p-15074828c.html

Beyond funding an arena, backers are expected to propose using the funding plan to pay for a host of other civic improvements around the region.

While technical, the question of whether the proposed sales tax increase is for general or specific purposes is a crucial one. Arena team members acknowledge that achieving a two-thirds vote for any tax, whether it's for schools, police protection or arenas, has proved exceedingly difficult in California.

Following the example of Santa Clara County, arena supporters said they planned to put two questions on the ballot for voters. One would be a binding question, asking whether voters would approve a general sales tax increase. The second would be a companion advisory question on whether voters would support certain projects, including an arena.

Ryan said in this way, the sales tax increase would be for general purposes and only require a majority vote. In a precedent-setting case, the state Supreme Court in 1998 upheld a Santa Clara County sales tax increase passed for no specified purpose on a simple majority vote. The same ballot included a separate measure that said extra sales tax funds should be used for transportation improvements.

 

[JB_kings]

A lot of this vote will depend on the how this is presented to the voters. There is a real and tangible negative impact to the city if this gets voted down. It shouldn't be soft peddled as I promise you more than 50% of the voters won't like the result after the fact. This could likely cost the city more money in the long run. There's just way too many people in this region to NOT have an arena to host events. Show the people what they are getting with the railyard and sports district included. Show them how downtown will look like in just a few short years because the arena will accelerate the development. Show them that there will be other public projects besides the arena that will be included. Show them that this will only cost 25 pennies for every 100 taxable dollars they spend. Even a poor family probably realizes that they lose more in loose change in their couch. Remember, groceries are not taxed in CA. They can feed their families and do pretty much the same things they already are doing. They aren't being asked to pay more than anyone else. If they buy a new TV for $300, it will only cost them an extra 75 cents. They aren't likely to go buy a $3000 plasma tv and pay the extra $7.50. I think if they educate the voters, it should pass with room to spare.

 

[ShatteredVision]

An arena in the downtown area will significantly make the real estate rise, which may force some people out of the area...

But it will be ritzy, think about the neighborhood around Pac Bell Park after it was built.

 

[VF21]

I hope it never happens, but if the Kings left and the NBA gave us an expansion team I would support it.

If - and that's still a fairly big IF - the Kings leave, the NBA won't even consider putting another team here until and unless there is a suitable facility in place.

I get a sinking feeling everytime I hear a 'nay' sayer on the radio, because for every 1 of them on the air, theirs 1000 just like each one that doesnt care about any facts, and will vote 'no' regardless of what they heard. It's just not fair, us losing our heart...our only team. And I would NEVER support an expansion team if the NBA wanted to give that to us down the road...if this fails and the Kings leave...I'm moving...dont know where, but I'm moving.

Naysayers don't necessarily vote in any larger numbers than those that would support the project. In fact, a lot of times people who scream NO the loudest figure they don't have to vote.

This will be a matter of getting out the vote; making sure the people who support the project actually follow through on election day. I may even volunteer to come down to Sacramento and spend the day helping to get out the vote. And I'm serious. Although I now live 2 hours away, Sacramento is still my home. I've talked to a number of people up here. Almost without exception, they've traveled to Sacramento for events and lots of them have attended functions in Arco. This is important, not only to Sacramento itself, but to anyone within a couple of hours travel distance.

Ok, a couple of items:

There is nothing "wrong" with the foundation supporting the existing structure. It isn't "lousy". It just wasn't engineered, designed or built to handle a structure renovation, with the additional dead and live loads and probable increased seismic loading due to California Building Code and Uniform Building Code updates and more modern design practices and analysis.

Not to mention the ... erm ... burial grounds?

 

[ShatteredVision]

You can see John Sutter's ghost roaming the Arco parking lot at 3am on Wednesdays with a quarter moon and a date that is a prime number...

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Oh yeah...and the voters of Sac county will never pass any sales tax with the word 'arena' in it.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

If - and that's still a fairly big IF - the Kings leave, the NBA won't even consider putting another team here until and unless there is a suitable facility in place.



Naysayers don't necessarily vote in any larger numbers than those that would support the project. In fact, a lot of times people who scream NO the loudest figure they don't have to vote.

This will be a matter of getting out the vote; making sure the people who support the project actually follow through on election day. I may even volunteer to come down to Sacramento and spend the day helping to get out the vote. And I'm serious. Although I now live 2 hours away, Sacramento is still my home. I've talked to a number of people up here. Almost without exception, they've traveled to Sacramento for events and lots of them have attended functions in Arco. This is important, not only to Sacramento itself, but to anyone within a couple of hours travel distance.



Not to mention the ... erm ... burial grounds?

Well, if only 50% of the people in favor of the vote, which is actually a pretty high #, but if that many of the supporters actually show up and vote yes at the polls, it still wouldnt be enough to pass it...there are SOOOO many NIMBY'S that show up to vote 'no' just to do it, and just because they hear the Maloofs name and public dollars on the ballot. I just dont know HOW this is going to get built...with the exception of the whole 'bond' issue, which has to be done expediantly in its own right once the vote on the ballot gets turned down in November(if it makes it there). I give it 6 months, with the 'bond' issue, to come into fruition to actually give it a chance to work...time is of an essence as all of us already are aware of.

 

[VF21]

Circa - You have the ability, on occasion, to rival piksi. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to give up on this before it's even started. I will continue to try my hardest to do whatever I can and urge others to do the same.

 

[kennadog]

Lousy foundation was a poor choice of words. However, there are other arenas that have been successfully renovated using their existing foundation, including Madison Square Garden, which is a whole lot older than Arco. For some reason this isn't even a possibility with Arco.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

You might tell them that MSG was massively renovated in 1991 to the tune of $200 million. That's $200 million 16 years ago!

EDIT: Unfortunately, more than one engineer has determined that due to the lousy foundation put in for Arco, renovation of the existing arena is out of the question.

Damn I'm glad the opposition does their homework. But you know what...no matter if they are convinced or not about a new arena...they still vote 'nay', just because, and always will, unfortunately. Damn NIMBYS...

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Circa - You have the ability, on occasion, to rival piksi. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to give up on this before it's even started. I will continue to try my hardest to do whatever I can and urge others to do the same.

Don't get me wrong VF, I will fight this with the same hope as yourself...but I haven't lost sight of the true and realistic odds we're up against. It's daunting, to say the least.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

A lot of this vote will depend on the how this is presented to the voters. There is a real and tangible negative impact to the city if this gets voted down. It shouldn't be soft peddled as I promise you more than 50% of the voters won't like the result after the fact. This could likely cost the city more money in the long run. There's just way too many people in this region to NOT have an arena to host events. Show the people what they are getting with the railyard and sports district included. Show them how downtown will look like in just a few short years because the arena will accelerate the development. Show them that there will be other public projects besides the arena that will be included. Show them that this will only cost 25 pennies for every 100 taxable dollars they spend. Even a poor family probably realizes that they lose more in loose change in their couch. Remember, groceries are not taxed in CA. They can feed their families and do pretty much the same things they already are doing. They aren't being asked to pay more than anyone else. If they buy a new TV for $300, it will only cost them an extra 75 cents. They aren't likely to go buy a $3000 plasma tv and pay the extra $7.50. I think if they educate the voters, it should pass with room to spare.

We are thinking SO much alike...this can't be done halfway by any standpoint...awesome post!

 

[love_them_kings]

A lot of this vote will depend on the how this is presented to the voters. There is a real and tangible negative impact to the city if this gets voted down. It shouldn't be soft peddled as I promise you more than 50% of the voters won't like the result after the fact. This could likely cost the city more money in the long run. There's just way too many people in this region to NOT have an arena to host events. Show the people what they are getting with the railyard and sports district included. Show them how downtown will look like in just a few short years because the arena will accelerate the development. Show them that there will be other public projects besides the arena that will be included. Show them that this will only cost 25 pennies for every 100 taxable dollars they spend. Even a poor family probably realizes that they lose more in loose change in their couch. Remember, groceries are not taxed in CA. They can feed their families and do pretty much the same things they already are doing. They aren't being asked to pay more than anyone else. If they buy a new TV for $300, it will only cost them an extra 75 cents. They aren't likely to go buy a $3000 plasma tv and pay the extra $7.50. I think if they educate the voters, it should pass with room to spare.

I agree completely. And, when (being optimistic of course!) this thing gets on the ballot I think we will see a MAJOR marketing blitz aimed at educating the voters. That is the only way it can be successful.

 

[Warhawk]

Lousy foundation was a poor choice of words. However, there are other arenas that have been successfully renovated using their existing foundation, including Madison Square Garden, which is a whole lot older than Arco. For some reason this isn't even a possibility with Arco.

Because it was built cheaply in the first place. The foundations were designed specifically for the structure planned without regard to renovations or improvements at a later time. It's like taking a Yugo and wanting to cram a V-8 engine under the hood vs. taking a pickup designed to handle multiple engine configurations and being able to use either a V-6 or V-8 in it. Yugos weren't designed to handle those, but they could handle the planned engines just fine. It's an engineering decision made by the owner/designer/builder. It can serve it's purpose, but don't expect more out of it.

And I am not necessarily saying the other arena was specifically planned to be renovated and all this flexibility was "planned in" ahead of time, but some foundation designs are inherently more tolerant of additional loading (high-capacity end-bearing piles, etc) and can handle the additional loads without distress.

 

[VF21]

So do I get to count this one as a correct rumor? If so, that makes my count "4-1" with one still pending.

 

[jon e]

this one is the biggest tho. you predicted to future of sacramento