Rudy Gay to play at the 4?

[SacTownKid]

WCS is not a center, especially early on - not enough power, and quickness gets underutilized. You take him as a center, he's a mid-teens pick.
Stanimal isn't as quick as Artest was and it's not particularly close. RHJ is much more suited for that role, though without strong upper body, and his ability to defend in the post is superior as well - he was guarding Kaminsky, when bigs failed, not Johnson.

Then he might have a problem because offensively he might have to play center. I think he can defensively pick a spot and play but early on, unless a team can deal with his inconsistent offensive play at PF then his team will have to selectively use him. I personally think he's a lot more skilled than he's been credited for and will develop but how much time will it take is the question.

Hollis-Jefferson is a tremendous defender but once again, offensive shortcomings might find him playing more at PF at the next level unless his team doesn't need much spread ability at SF. Johnson or Winslow will keep teams much more honest on both ends.

 

[IfAt1st]

I don't understand people dismissing Rudy at the PF, and assuming JT is OK.

JT is hardly even getting in the game anymore, and when he does, he's been utterly ineffective and invisible.

IIRC, JT has been exposed badly this year - he simply cannot compete with stretch fours (way too many open 3's), and is too inconsistent to rely on as a starter. After 5 years, he has proven not to be the PF we need next to DMC, yet people are kinda-OK with him coming back as the starting PF on a (hopefully) playoff-level team?!

Until Rudy's ill-fitting at PF has been proven on the court - and to the contrary, he's been FINE at PF so far this year (IIRC he has not been exposed defensively any more than he has at SF) - then I'm not going to dismiss out of hand the concept of Rudy holding down the 4 better than invisible-JT has been.

Further, IF Rudy playi9ng the PF makes it easier to find a more-standard and more-common veteran 3-and-D SF, then it may well be the change that makes the team work.

 

[SacTownKid]

I don't understand people dismissing Rudy at the PF, and assuming JT is OK.

JT is hardly even getting in the game anymore, and when he does, he's been utterly ineffective and invisible.

IIRC, JT has been exposed badly this year - he simply cannot compete with stretch fours (way too many open 3's), and is too inconsistent to rely on as a starter. After 5 years, he has proven not to be the PF we need next to DMC, yet people are kinda-OK with him coming back as the starting PF on a (hopefully) playoff-level team?!

Until Rudy's ill-fitting at PF has been proven on the court - and to the contrary, he's been FINE at PF so far this year (IIRC he has not been exposed defensively any more than he has at SF) - then I'm not going to dismiss out of hand the concept of Rudy holding down the 4 better than invisible-JT has been.

Further, IF Rudy playi9ng the PF makes it easier to find a more-standard and more-common veteran 3-and-D SF, then it may well be the change that makes the team work.

I want to see more Rudy at PF with another shooter, it showed some serious promise before Rudy went down and Cuz started to get rest here and there. JT has looked solid as a backup C. He still gets overpowered here and there and the difference defensively without Cousins is beyond noticeable but as a 3/4 option at PF/C he'll do. Way overpaid, but he's solid.

Him starting at PF shouldn't be an option at all after seeing the space this team had with two shooters in the front court. They at least need to find a PF that can shoot from beyond the arc. Heck maybe JT can find that shot he had in college, who knows.

 

[jcwkings]

I want to see more Rudy at PF with another shooter, it showed some serious promise before Rudy went down and Cuz started to get rest here and there. JT has looked solid as a backup C. He still gets overpowered here and there and the difference defensively without Cousins is beyond noticeable but as a 3/4 option at PF/C he'll do. Way overpaid, but he's solid.

Him starting at PF shouldn't be an option at all after seeing the space this team had with two shooters in the front court. They at least need to find a PF that can shoot from beyond the arc. Heck maybe JT can find that shot he had in college, who knows.

Yep, Rudy at the 4 isn't too bad, especially for what he have right now. This isn't 1997, most teams play stretch 4's and playing Rudy there is actually a + because of his length(being able to challenge shots) and he is too quick for those stretch 4's to drive past him. As long as you have a couple of bangers you can bring off the bench to mix it up defensively. In fact if Rudy plays at the 4 he is one of the most unique in that he is a solid outside shooter and can take guys off the dribble and finish with the best. DMC is proving he can anchor the defense, I think offensively Rudy at the 4 opens up so many options and opens up the floor so much for DMC.

Draft Justice Winslow, kid is going to be star, mark my words. A one man fast break, and an amazing finisher on the wings. Imagine DC leading the break with Gay and Winslow on the wings. Deadly especially with our anchor throwing out those outlet passes.

 

[Bricklayer]

Rudy doesn't work at the 4. its rebounding, switching, and Boogie having to both face down the opposing team's best interior big and defend the rim. And if he gets pulled away, we get scored on every possession.

And no, Most teams in the West do NOT play stretch 4s, not as starters.

Here's your stretch 4 teams out here:

Phx (Morris)
Warriors (Green)
Dallas (Dirk -- kinda, just old, but 7'0 and will kill you with post game)

Here's your eat your stretch 4 for lunch teams:
Portland (Aldridge)
Clippers (Griffin)
Utah (Favors)
Denver (Faried)
Spurs (Duncan)
OKC (Ibaka (can stretch a bit)
New Orleans (Davis)
Memphis (Randolph)

questions:
Houston (Montiejunas or Jones?)
Lakers (who knows next year, Boozer = no)
Minny (who knows, young = yes)

 

[Tetsujin]

Rudy doesn't work at the 4. its rebounding, switching, and Boogie having to both face down the opposing team's best interior big and defend the rim. And if he gets pulled away, we get scored on every possession.

And no, Most teams in the West do NOT play stretch 4s, not as starters.

Here's your stretch 4 teams out here:

Phx (Morris)
Warriors (Green)
Dallas (Dirk -- kinda, just old, but 7'0 and will kill you with post game)

Here's your eat your stretch 4 for lunch teams:
Portland (Aldridge)
Clippers (Griffin)
Utah (Favors)
Denver (Faried)
Spurs (Duncan)
OKC (Ibaka (can stretch a bit)
New Orleans (Davis)
Memphis (Randolph)

questions:
Houston (Montiejunas or Jones?)
Lakers (who knows next year, Boozer = no)
Minny (who knows, young = yes)

Seeing as how Young is now on the Nets, that'd be a no as well.

 

[SacTownKid]

Rudy doesn't work at the 4. its rebounding, switching, and Boogie having to both face down the opposing team's best interior big and defend the rim. And if he gets pulled away, we get scored on every possession.

And no, Most teams in the West do NOT play stretch 4s, not as starters.

Here's your stretch 4 teams out here:

Phx (Morris)
Warriors (Green)
Dallas (Dirk -- kinda, just old, but 7'0 and will kill you with post game)

Here's your eat your stretch 4 for lunch teams:
Portland (Aldridge)
Clippers (Griffin)
Utah (Favors)
Denver (Faried)
Spurs (Duncan)
OKC (Ibaka (can stretch a bit)
New Orleans (Davis)
Memphis (Randolph)

questions:
Houston (Montiejunas or Jones?)
Lakers (who knows next year, Boozer = no)
Minny (who knows, young = yes)

Certain match ups might not work, but Rudy can handle himself. Plus, if it's about those teams being an issue match up wise, you could always switch Rudy to the opposite front court player. Very few of those teams mentioned have the ability to abuse anyone, regardless of position, at both front court positions simultaneously. Not to mention that those players mentioned also have to match up with Rudy, and in looking at some of those names that might be a tougher task for them than Rudy. I think overall you take it on a match up to match up basis.

And we just witnessed first hand Rudy handle Davis quite well and New Orleans was uncharacteristically using Davis in iso on Rudy in order to specifically take advantage of that match up. The great thing about Gay is that if the match ups are hurting defensively you just switch him back to SF. It doesn't change the necessity for this team to be able to spread the floor and provide spacing at PF. Having a stretch 4, or the importance of having one will have a lot to do with what you have at the 5. This team has Cousins down low, those teams don't so spacing for the Kings is going to be a lot more beneficial than many of the teams listed. This team isn't a pick and roll team whereas quite a few of the prominent teams above are so they operate in a completely different way than the Kings do. Many of the teams listed also do go small and play a similar stretch oriented lineup at times.

 

[IfAt1st]

Rudy doesn't work at the 4. its rebounding, switching, and Boogie having to both face down the opposing team's best interior big and defend the rim. And if he gets pulled away, we get scored on every possession.

I respect your opinions, Brick but on this one I think you are dismissing Rudy way too easily.

I simply don;t agree that it is a foregone conclusion that Rudy can;t compete against your list of "lunch-eating PFs".
Unless I'm mistaken, Rudy has shown he has not been overpowered at the PF spot yet.
Case opposing your opinion - Anthony Davis didn't abuse Rudy at all - in fact, it was a favorable matchup for us IIRC.

Faried is smaller and lighter than Rudy, and isn;t much of an offensive threat anyway.
It seems to me like LeMarcus Aldritch has been destroying teams (and us with JT guarding him) from the outside more than the inside.
I really doubt Derrick Favors or Ibaka would destroy Rudy offensively, and Rudy scores more than those guys, so we would likely win that matchup.

Sure, Duncan, Z-Bo, and Griffin are a bit concerning, but that's a really small % of the time during a season where the matchup might get ugly.
Most of the rest of the time, one could argue Rudy would be the matchup problem for THEM moreso.

Like it or not, the NBA is rapidly going to a 3-pt dominant offensive scheme, across the board (except Memphis).
Rudy at the 4 changes this team's balance a LOT, making them radically more capable of a big increase in that category next year. I can't imagine getting a new SG and PF next year that would change that category more than sliding Rudy over and getting a 3-and-D SF.

As we've all seen, the NBA really doesn't exploit the post-ups nearly as much as they used to - the persistent flopping, and refs calling on prediction-of-contact and body reactions makes it so they can't exploit post-ups like they used to.

 

[Gilles]

It's not just one-on-one defense against the other team's starting PF:
1. Kings can't hide Cousins from foul trouble.
2. Kings lose rebounding edge, turning into mediocre team at best.
3. It's energy taxing to bump more and with bigger bodies for 2500 minutes, and you do it for your second best creator.
4. Kings lose in overall length and strength across the lineup, which has obvious effect on D.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Rudy doesn't work at the 4. its rebounding, switching, and Boogie having to both face down the opposing team's best interior big and defend the rim. And if he gets pulled away, we get scored on every possession.

Yet the game results aren't showing that Rudy doesn't work at the 4.

Under Karl, we have played 23 games so far. With Rudy starting at the 4, we are 4-1 (.800). With Rudy starting at the 3 we are 4-10 (.286). With Rudy not playing we are 0-4 (.000).

The theory that Rudy won't work as a stretch four makes sense, but at some point you have to check the theory against the data, and as of now the data don't seem to support it. That doesn't necessarily mean "Don't draft WCS, let's play smallball!", but it certainly suggests that Karl is able to make it work with Rudy at the 4.

 

[Tetsujin]

Yet the game results aren't showing that Rudy doesn't work at the 4.

Under Karl, we have played 23 games so far. With Rudy starting at the 4, we are 4-1 (.800). With Rudy starting at the 3 we are 4-10 (.286). With Rudy not playing we are 0-4 (.000).

The theory that Rudy won't work as a stretch four makes sense, but at some point you have to check the theory against the data, and as of now the data don't seem to support it. That doesn't necessarily mean "Don't draft WCS, let's play smallball!", but it certainly suggests that Karl is able to make it work with Rudy at the 4.

Well, to be fair, I think the stats are thrown off a bit by the fact that any big man on the Kings not named Demarcus or Jason is practically a blackhole of productivity and Karl now seems fairly comfortable with bringing Jason off the bench meaning that Landry/Evans get to start the game in a traditional line-up and generally produce so poorly that playing Rudy out of position and replacing the blackhole of suck with a competent roleplayer like Omri Casspi winds up being a huge positive.

I guess my point is that 2015 Ruined Legs Carl Landry is really really bad.

 

[King Baller]

Rudy doesn't work at the 4. its rebounding, switching, and Boogie having to both face down the opposing team's best interior big and defend the rim. And if he gets pulled away, we get scored on every possession.

And no, Most teams in the West do NOT play stretch 4s, not as starters.

Here's your stretch 4 teams out here:

Phx (Morris)
Warriors (Green)
Dallas (Dirk -- kinda, just old, but 7'0 and will kill you with post game)

Here's your eat your stretch 4 for lunch teams:
Portland (Aldridge)
Clippers (Griffin)
Utah (Favors)
Denver (Faried)
Spurs (Duncan)
OKC (Ibaka (can stretch a bit)
New Orleans (Davis)
Memphis (Randolph)

questions:
Houston (Montiejunas or Jones?)
Lakers (who knows next year, Boozer = no)
Minny (who knows, young = yes)

I like Rudy Gay at the 4, but not full time. I think this season Karl did it to see how it played out since he really did not have many options at PF. I expect to see the PF and SG positions upgraded along with the bench.

What is going to be great is watching the Warriors play the Post Season with Green at PF. How will Green fare against the likes of Aldridge, Griffin, Duncan, Ibaka and Randolph? Now keep in mind Green is probably a better all around defender than Gay, except in the length department.

Like I said I like Gay at the 4, but not full time. I'm just concerned of the wear and tear of the almost nightly NBA season on his body. We know Rudy endures at the 3, but those 4's Brick outlined above are much bigger guys and the banging is something fierce.

So I'm OK with Rudy getting some action at the 4 when you rest the starting 4 or against teams with less physical PF's. Otherwise I think he will end up banged up a good part of the season.

 

[King Baller]

Just as an aside I suppose Rudy could hit the weight room in an attempt to add 10 to 15 pounds of banging weight. I'm just not sure if that is the best course for Rudy and the Kings.

 

[twslam07]

Do we have to move Gay to the 4? Why don't we try and trade for someone like Markieff Morris? Compared to Gay, he's an inch taller, same standing reach, but has 15-20lbs on him. Gay's obviously more athletic, but Morris would have more strength in the post. All the while you still have a guy who can hit the three, spread the floor for Cousins and Gay, and operate as a third option along with Collison.

As far as rebounding, he won't be the strongest rebounder at the PF position, but we really just need a little bit of help on the defensive glass with Cousins back there. Per 100 possessions, he brings down more defensive boards than Landry (7.1), Gay (6.0), and Williams (5.6) (Morris is at 7.5). Gay's a pretty good rebounder at the SF position so hopefully a Gay, Morris, and Cousins frontcourt would be able to get the job done.

 

[Bricklayer]

Yet the game results aren't showing that Rudy doesn't work at the 4.

Under Karl, we have played 23 games so far. With Rudy starting at the 4, we are 4-1 (.800). With Rudy starting at the 3 we are 4-10 (.286). With Rudy not playing we are 0-4 (.000).

The theory that Rudy won't work as a stretch four makes sense, but at some point you have to check the theory against the data, and as of now the data don't seem to support it. That doesn't necessarily mean "Don't draft WCS, let's play smallball!", but it certainly suggests that Karl is able to make it work with Rudy at the 4.

Games against 3 EC teams and Phoenix (one of the only smallball West teams) don't do a thing to make me question my Western Conference analysis.

The Western Conference, the Winning Conference, plays big guys. It is in fact a major part of the reason WHY it wins.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Games against 3 EC teams and Phoenix (one of the only smallball West teams) don't do a thing to make me question my Western Conference analysis.

The Western Conference, the Winning Conference, plays big guys. It is in fact a major part of the reason WHY it wins.

While one can probably safely ignore Philly, the other two EC wins were against Charlotte (Zeller/Jefferson) and Washington (Gortat/Nene). If my memory serves me correctly, Rudy was primarily matched up against Jefferson and Gortat in those games. That's definitely on the scale of the WC big guys.

 

[DesertFox]

Rudy at the four gets the best five on the court now, but I still think his advantage is at sf.
If the team started another athletic sf with some rebounding ability, then I can see it working. But Shawn Marion don't grow on trees. I can see why they are desperately trying to see if DWill has anything to offer, cause he would fit the profile physically. But he's been a zero.

 

[VF21]

Rudy at the four gets the best five on the court now, but I still think his advantage is at sf.
If the team started another athletic sf with some rebounding ability, then I can see it working. But Shawn Marion don't grow on trees. I can see why they are desperately trying to see if DWill has anything to offer, cause he would fit the profile physically. But he's been a zero.

George Karl compared DWill (unfavorably) to a coke machine in terms of who can get more rebounds in 20 minutes on the court. I get the feeling Mr. Williams might not be part of our future.

 

[Hadlowe]

George Karl compared DWill (unfavorably) to a coke machine in terms of who can get more rebounds in 20 minutes on the court. I get the feeling Mr. Williams might not be part of our future.

Which is fine, and a shame. All that athleticism, a decent skillset, and just no head for the game.

 

[Gilles]

Kings' lineups with at least 60 minutes played.

I guess there is some merit to play Rudy at 4, but only in stretches, and it seems to rely on personnel. Most effective lineup just looks funny, especially, when you compare it to the least effective - clearly, Rudy was the problem!
Still the worst lineup is Kings' sucky bench unit Casspi,Omri - Evans,Reggie - Landry,Carl - Sessions,Ramon - Stauskas,Nik with majestic (-62.5 points per 100 possessions). They gave us 39 minutes of amazing basketball.

 

[Hadlowe]

Still the worst lineup is Kings' sucky bench unit Casspi,Omri - Evans,Reggie - Landry,Carl - Sessions,Ramon - Stauskas,Nik with majestic (-62.5 points per 100 possessions). They gave us 39 minutes of amazing basketball.

When Omri Casspi is the tallest Kings player on the court, you're going to have a few problems.

 

[chief bromden]

Kings' lineups with at least 60 minutes played.

I guess there is some merit to play Rudy at 4, but only in stretches, and it seems to rely on personnel. Most effective lineup just looks funny, especially, when you compare it to the least effective - clearly, Rudy was the problem!
Still the worst lineup is Kings' sucky bench unit Casspi,Omri - Evans,Reggie - Landry,Carl - Sessions,Ramon - Stauskas,Nik with majestic (-62.5 points per 100 possessions). They gave us 39 minutes of amazing basketball.

Stats like this are pretty cool, but do they have any merit when the majority of the season is garbage time? If those lineups net ratings are positive, what were the lineups they were facing? First, second, or third unit? What part of the game were those lineups on the floor?

In regard to this thread, I hope the Kings have a new starting 4 next season. If that plan is Rudy, this team probably won't win many games because Rudy is an average defender. I think he has the size and length to match up 'ok' against a lot of the 4's in the league, but I've never been in love with his defense. I'd rather find another option.

 

[PBNJ85]

Last gasp game stats from a long lost season are useless.

 

[PBNJ85]

Somebody called them pageant games and they were right.

 

[randymoss1881]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ach-nba-team-should-already-be-eyeing/page/27

Says we should target Jeff Green to play PF I'd definetly want to spend money on him over Afflalos corpses or josh smith.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

I don't understand people dismissing Rudy at the PF, and assuming JT is OK.

JT is hardly even getting in the game anymore, and when he does, he's been utterly ineffective and invisible.

IIRC, JT has been exposed badly this year - he simply cannot compete with stretch fours (way too many open 3's), and is too inconsistent to rely on as a starter. After 5 years, he has proven not to be the PF we need next to DMC, yet people are kinda-OK with him coming back as the starting PF on a (hopefully) playoff-level team?!

Until Rudy's ill-fitting at PF has been proven on the court - and to the contrary, he's been FINE at PF so far this year (IIRC he has not been exposed defensively any more than he has at SF) - then I'm not going to dismiss out of hand the concept of Rudy holding down the 4 better than invisible-JT has been.

Further, IF Rudy playi9ng the PF makes it easier to find a more-standard and more-common veteran 3-and-D SF, then it may well be the change that makes the team work.

you dismiss jt's ability to guard real big men. send rudy to defend zach randolph in a 7 game series and let's see what happens. we'd be lucky if he doesn't get hurt. all the energy he expends on the defensive end will zap his effectiveness on the offensive end.

 

[rainmaker]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ach-nba-team-should-already-be-eyeing/page/27

Says we should target Jeff Green to play PF I'd definetly want to spend money on him over Afflalos corpses or josh smith.

First response was no. After thinking a little harder about it, hell no.

 

[Bricklayer]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ach-nba-team-should-already-be-eyeing/page/27

Says we should target Jeff Green to play PF I'd definetly want to spend money on him over Afflalos corpses or josh smith.

I'm sure Zach will get a chuckle when he sees that wuss lining up across from him next year.

 

[jcwkings]

What kind of PF do you guys want then? You will be sorely disappointed if you are expecting a 1990's bruiser type. Karl values skill and shooting. His style is all about floor spacing, drive and kick action. EVERYONE is doing it, San Antonio, Golden State, Houston, Atlanta, Cleveland. The only one that isn't is Memphis who are like and NBA relic. Can you guys give some names of players you guys would like starting at the 4 that are realistic options? Meaning they fit Karl's system and your criteria as well and are realistic targets via trade or free agency.

 

[Spike]

What Karl wants and what the Kings need may very well be two separate players.

Boogie (Kings) need defensive help way way more than another floor spacer at the PF position. With adequate and consistent outside shooting from the 1-3 (almost there), you shouldn't need it at the 4.

A player with a respectable mid range game at the 4 would be fine, but even better would be a flyer who can clean up, leaving Cousins not having to expend so much energy on the defensive side. Under this current system, he has to be all-world on both sides for the team to be competitive.

Memphis may be a relic, but they also have the luxury of a lumbering brute. You don't think any of those teams you mentioned would love to have Cousins? They would build around his strengths, much like we should. And that means either locking down the perimeter or getting secondary post help via the PF position.