I think the worst mistake the "movers and traders" have made is in not paying more attention to the psychological effect some players have on the team as a whole. They might not be starters, or even big scorers, but the likes of Bobby Jackson, Scot Pollard, Jon Barry, Maurice Evans, and others were huge assets in the area of team morale. Shooting and scoring is not everything--someone who can rally the team (and fans) is just as important and the Kings are sadly missing that element in the current team configuration.
Roster mistakes....
- Thread starter xelxock
- Start date
What's this, like, the 3rd or 4th time a topic like this has come up in the last week? 
B-Jax - Traded for Bonzi. Bobby sadly proved to be crucially injury prone the last 2 seasons. He got injured last week, and is on the inactive list. He's been really good for the Grizz too, and I'll always love 'em.
Mo Evans - Changed his mind from the qualifying offer area (800-900K) in June/early July, to a multi-year million dollar deal in late July, thus would of had to use part of the MLE on him. I miss him, but still follow him.
Pollard - traded for Brad Miller.
B-Jax - Traded for Bonzi. Bobby sadly proved to be crucially injury prone the last 2 seasons. He got injured last week, and is on the inactive list. He's been really good for the Grizz too, and I'll always love 'em.
Mo Evans - Changed his mind from the qualifying offer area (800-900K) in June/early July, to a multi-year million dollar deal in late July, thus would of had to use part of the MLE on him. I miss him, but still follow him.
Pollard - traded for Brad Miller.
Last edited:
JJ22L
Starter
I agree with Kings113, I loved Jackson and what his game brought...but he was almost always injured..and if i was given the opportunity for a Jackson/Tag Bonzi swap i would do it 99% of the time. However much i hate to say this...the NBA is 90% (if not more) business...and like in Mo's case he saw he could get more money and moved to get it...which was really beyond our control being that we would of had to use our mid level on him...which in my opinion would have been kind of a waste (since we got SAR at a good rate). Even when we did lose them we were still a winning team, but i agree that the game is 50% mental 50% physical, i mean look at pejas physical shooting skill vs...well, if his head is in the game anymore or not..but thats besides the point. Webber brought alot of heart to this team, and if you are going to talk about psychological effects...id start with that then move down the list to b-jax etc etc
LPKingsFan
All-Star
Second-guessing Petrie:
1. Jon Barry for Mateen Cleaves (2001): losing him actually was the first sign of the team's decline for me. Although the Kings went on to have their best record in 2001-2002, this cost-cutting trade of a fan favorite and a hustler with heart pointed at the later things to come. It is true, however, that he wouldn't have played much, as Bobby and Hedo (rightfully) took most of the backcourt bench minutes the following seasons.
2. Failure to re-sign Jim Jackson (2003): Another cost-cutting move, and one that bit the Kings in the *** moreso. Demonstrated true hustle and grit as one of the few Kings to keep fighting against Dallas after Webb went down. Replaced by Anthony Peeler, who was irreconciably signed only to a one year deal (second year player option), forcing the Kings to leave Wallace unprotected in the expansion draft a year later. The talent bleed begins.
3. Hedo and Pollard for Brad Miller (2003). Say what you want about Brad's softness now, but a great deal IMO. Took two little used benchers (Jackson and Keon largely outed the two in the rotation) and got the center of the future as Vlade's looming mortality was becoming more and more obvious. Another Petire coup, although his lack of foresight in getting athletic shotblockers to play next to Brad has been maddening.
4. Paying Utah draft picks to take Keon (2003). Sure, he ended up badmouthing the team, getting injured, and leaving the NBA, but he played well for us, and was the last truly athletic big man we've had. Sure could use him now. We paid Utah to take him. And to think I had plans of sending him to Utah in a sign and trade for Malone!? The bleeding continues...
5. Letting Vlade walk and signing Tag (2004). Mixed feelings about this one, and it all leads to a series of questions. Vlade was effectively done, but would Peja have been more effective with him still around? Should we pander to Peja that much? Could we still use his leadership? Why did we pay more for Tag, who never played? Why didn't Tag play more? All valid questions, IMO.
6. Trading Doug for Cat (2005). Tough move, considering Doug's leadership was invaluable. But his defensive skills were waning, and less than a year later we find our beloved Doug out of the league. I don't buy the Cat-as-a-ballhog rhetoric, as I think he fit well with Webb around. In any case, maybe he worked out, maybe he didnt, but getting him for Doug was a coup talent wise. Of course, we let him walk in free agency, thus continuing the bleeding. Nene may have been hoping for a bit much, but why not at least try to sweeten the deal with Martin, or try to go after someone else. Maybe Petrie did. I don't know, but I'm not happy.
7. The Webber trade (2005). What can I say, the team has never been the same since. But discussion on this topic merits its own thread, thus I'll continue to the summer...
8. Letting Darius walk (2005). Another case of losing talent for nothing. Sure he was expendable with Kenny around--but should Kenny be here in the first place? I'll not get carried away here... But back on topic. Darius wasn't the bench player we needed, as Adelman really does well with combo PF/C's off the bench as part of an eight-man rotation. But he was a solid player, and we should have tried to get something, anything, for him.
9. Mo Evans (2005). A good bencher, but we didn't have Bird rights. Thus we couldn't match without tapping into the MLE. And with Martin and Garcia waiting in the wings, and SAR magically available for the exception, the call was really a no-brainer.
10. Bobby and Tag for Bonzi (2005). Losing Bobby sucks. No other way to say it. BUT... he was injured a lot, and we needed to replace Cat. Now, we shouldn't have lost Cat for nothing in the first place, but the Bonzi move was a great move for obvious reasons. But Bonzi would really be best in the same role as Bobby, as a hustling leader off the bench. Or we should have gotten another bencher for Cat. But plugging holes by removing plugs from other holes just doesn't get you anywhere.
OK, I'm stopping at 10. I could talk about how SAR didn't address any of our lingering athleticism, shotblocking and interior defensive issues, but getting him on the cheap helped to stop the bleeding a little. My main point is thus, that we used to get by on our chemistry and superior overall talent to make up for our lack of a dominant superstar--which Webb circa 2001 actually was. Now, we've bled talent and lost all of these things. So don't say there's just one simple reason why we're bad now. Because it's not simple, but it can be fixed.
1. Jon Barry for Mateen Cleaves (2001): losing him actually was the first sign of the team's decline for me. Although the Kings went on to have their best record in 2001-2002, this cost-cutting trade of a fan favorite and a hustler with heart pointed at the later things to come. It is true, however, that he wouldn't have played much, as Bobby and Hedo (rightfully) took most of the backcourt bench minutes the following seasons.
2. Failure to re-sign Jim Jackson (2003): Another cost-cutting move, and one that bit the Kings in the *** moreso. Demonstrated true hustle and grit as one of the few Kings to keep fighting against Dallas after Webb went down. Replaced by Anthony Peeler, who was irreconciably signed only to a one year deal (second year player option), forcing the Kings to leave Wallace unprotected in the expansion draft a year later. The talent bleed begins.
3. Hedo and Pollard for Brad Miller (2003). Say what you want about Brad's softness now, but a great deal IMO. Took two little used benchers (Jackson and Keon largely outed the two in the rotation) and got the center of the future as Vlade's looming mortality was becoming more and more obvious. Another Petire coup, although his lack of foresight in getting athletic shotblockers to play next to Brad has been maddening.
4. Paying Utah draft picks to take Keon (2003). Sure, he ended up badmouthing the team, getting injured, and leaving the NBA, but he played well for us, and was the last truly athletic big man we've had. Sure could use him now. We paid Utah to take him. And to think I had plans of sending him to Utah in a sign and trade for Malone!? The bleeding continues...
5. Letting Vlade walk and signing Tag (2004). Mixed feelings about this one, and it all leads to a series of questions. Vlade was effectively done, but would Peja have been more effective with him still around? Should we pander to Peja that much? Could we still use his leadership? Why did we pay more for Tag, who never played? Why didn't Tag play more? All valid questions, IMO.
6. Trading Doug for Cat (2005). Tough move, considering Doug's leadership was invaluable. But his defensive skills were waning, and less than a year later we find our beloved Doug out of the league. I don't buy the Cat-as-a-ballhog rhetoric, as I think he fit well with Webb around. In any case, maybe he worked out, maybe he didnt, but getting him for Doug was a coup talent wise. Of course, we let him walk in free agency, thus continuing the bleeding. Nene may have been hoping for a bit much, but why not at least try to sweeten the deal with Martin, or try to go after someone else. Maybe Petrie did. I don't know, but I'm not happy.
7. The Webber trade (2005). What can I say, the team has never been the same since. But discussion on this topic merits its own thread, thus I'll continue to the summer...
8. Letting Darius walk (2005). Another case of losing talent for nothing. Sure he was expendable with Kenny around--but should Kenny be here in the first place? I'll not get carried away here... But back on topic. Darius wasn't the bench player we needed, as Adelman really does well with combo PF/C's off the bench as part of an eight-man rotation. But he was a solid player, and we should have tried to get something, anything, for him.
9. Mo Evans (2005). A good bencher, but we didn't have Bird rights. Thus we couldn't match without tapping into the MLE. And with Martin and Garcia waiting in the wings, and SAR magically available for the exception, the call was really a no-brainer.
10. Bobby and Tag for Bonzi (2005). Losing Bobby sucks. No other way to say it. BUT... he was injured a lot, and we needed to replace Cat. Now, we shouldn't have lost Cat for nothing in the first place, but the Bonzi move was a great move for obvious reasons. But Bonzi would really be best in the same role as Bobby, as a hustling leader off the bench. Or we should have gotten another bencher for Cat. But plugging holes by removing plugs from other holes just doesn't get you anywhere.
OK, I'm stopping at 10. I could talk about how SAR didn't address any of our lingering athleticism, shotblocking and interior defensive issues, but getting him on the cheap helped to stop the bleeding a little. My main point is thus, that we used to get by on our chemistry and superior overall talent to make up for our lack of a dominant superstar--which Webb circa 2001 actually was. Now, we've bled talent and lost all of these things. So don't say there's just one simple reason why we're bad now. Because it's not simple, but it can be fixed.
LPKingsFan
All-Star
Thanks, but it's easy to second guess, as hindsight is 20/20.
It is maddening, though, when you look at our 60-win team from 2001...
Vlade (left as FA)
Webber (traded for Thomas/Skinner/Williamson)
Peja (still around, can we afford to lose him for nothing?)
Christie (effectively lost for nothing)
Bibby
Bobby (traded for Bonzi)
Hedo (traded for Brad)
Pollard (traded for Brad)
Wallace (lost in expansion draft)
Cleaves (FA, whatever)
Fundy (FA)
Jabari (FA)
Price (FA)
Sure, you rebuild constantly through the draft and the MLE, but we've lost a lot, and don't have a lot to show for it. Which makes me hesitant to ditch Peja, Brad, or Bibby for peanuts... but we may have no choice at this point.
It is maddening, though, when you look at our 60-win team from 2001...
Vlade (left as FA)
Webber (traded for Thomas/Skinner/Williamson)
Peja (still around, can we afford to lose him for nothing?)
Christie (effectively lost for nothing)
Bibby
Bobby (traded for Bonzi)
Hedo (traded for Brad)
Pollard (traded for Brad)
Wallace (lost in expansion draft)
Cleaves (FA, whatever)
Fundy (FA)
Jabari (FA)
Price (FA)
Sure, you rebuild constantly through the draft and the MLE, but we've lost a lot, and don't have a lot to show for it. Which makes me hesitant to ditch Peja, Brad, or Bibby for peanuts... but we may have no choice at this point.
JJ22L
Starter
Yea its true- we did have alot to lose though, we were at the point where things could almost ONLY go down- the Kings had it all in a sense, we had the bench we had d we had a smooth running offensive machine, we had (note the tense..but i still got faith) the smooth GM who knew how to make deals to better our team. Now- we are at the point where...there could be some addition by subtraction. But your point is true...weve lost alot...and its sad, but isome of it was inevitable..like Bobby and Christie and Vlade with getting hurt and age and all.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Gerald Wallace...
Packt
Starter
I approve of the the Bonzi trade, but I'll always love Bobby Jackson; healthy of course. Personally I can't stand Jon Barry. Liked him as a King, but he's one of the ex-Kings I root against. I just can't stand his antics. He's such a bi***. I never use such a word for ex-players, but I just can't stand him. I don't know why, but his antics are so annoying.
Here is an answer to the Ostertag wonderings:
Tag didn't play more because he was out of shape from the summer going along for the whole season, he admitted it, and talked to Rick about it in the middle of the season. Thus, Tag got in Adelman's dog-house because of it. It was in the 'Bee a bunch.
Tag didn't play more because he was out of shape from the summer going along for the whole season, he admitted it, and talked to Rick about it in the middle of the season. Thus, Tag got in Adelman's dog-house because of it. It was in the 'Bee a bunch.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Which was total BS. Tag came in and did what he was brought here to do when he got the very little time he did get, then Adleman would sit him for 4 games. Adelman would say how he needs to find Tag more time and then proceed to sit him do to "matchup" concerns. Total crap, I am still very heated about that because he's the exact kind of player we needed and still need.Kings113 said:
Skinners in perfect shape, why doesn't he play? I will always respect Adelman and be grateful for what he did in the past for the team, but its time to move on. We have rebounding/interior defense problems and our best rebounder/interior defender sees 0 time. What is wrong with this picture?
SacTown
G-League
Hell yeah Skinner should be playing! There's no exuse why he isn't!
And that was a great post LP, and I agree with most, especially with Webber's leave changing the team. I think moral support has a lot to do with it, and also chemistry. I loved this team because they were like a big family, fighting against the other teams like it was some sort of war or something. The way the got along off of the court was incredible and extremely rare. But if they bonded off court, of coarse they will bond on, which means better basketball.
And that was a great post LP, and I agree with most, especially with Webber's leave changing the team. I think moral support has a lot to do with it, and also chemistry. I loved this team because they were like a big family, fighting against the other teams like it was some sort of war or something. The way the got along off of the court was incredible and extremely rare. But if they bonded off court, of coarse they will bond on, which means better basketball.
