Reviewing Bagley v Luka

gunks · Mar 27, 2019

People trying to convince themselves Luka is overrated are killing me. The kid is a beast and just gonna get better. The Bird/Harden comps (skill set) aren't really that crazy. He's gonna be even better if he puts in work at the gym.

BUT, Fox is clearly going to be a stud PG going forward. I really don't think he'd develop like this of he had to defer/share the offense with Luka. I think Vlade and Co made the right call picking someone who'd mesh well with Fox going forward.

Bags is gonna be insane in a few seasons. I wanted Luka pre draft, and at times I still wonder "what if", but Bagley has monster written all over him. With his natural gifts and speed of development... I dunno if he even has a ceiling. Crazy high potential.

Fox/Bags>>>>Luka/whoever we'd have gotten for Fox (Zinger?) predraft. Best believe that!

Joshoua · Mar 28, 2019

Tetsujin said:

The confidence is they’ve done the hard part which is finding te franchise and 2nd banana guys. Luka/Porzingis will be that now you jus go get good role players

gunks said:

I’m honestly surprised vlade didn’t do that trade Luka/Porzingis/Buddy/Giles is absolutely filthy. Good thing is we would’ve won taking the deal or now not taking the deal.

Tetsujin · Mar 28, 2019

Joshoua said:

With all due respect to Zinger’s game, nothing about his career thus far counters the historic precedent of dudes his size simply not being built for basketball.

He’s already had a wide spectrum of injuries, including the dreaded lower body/back issues that plagued dudes like Yao and Manute Bol. So what you’re pretty much hoping if you’re the Mavs is that Kristaps remains relatively healthy and or that he’s only injured when it doesn’t matter and considering his max contract demands, that is a huuuge gamble, especially without your 1st round draft picks for the next several seasons

206Fan · Mar 28, 2019

parker said:

oh ok... seems like I walked into a weird cluster lol

Joshoua · Mar 28, 2019

Tetsujin said:

We agree thought that he’s a legit star healthy? At the point I’d take the risk you gotta risk to get a reward especially with this draft being so bad.

Than again I’m a huge Porzingis fan so I might be biased

ParniValjak · Mar 28, 2019

Livinthedream said:

Manu!

This is a development year for Bagley. Joerger has done a phenomenal job of picking his opponents early on and then as the season has gone on, finding every opportunity to play him as much as he possibly can! It really doesn’t matter this season if he starts or not. What matters is that he gets a lot of minutes and that is what he is getting.

Next season Bagley is a certain starter. Everyone can see that. The only question is who will start next to him as the other big. I don’t think that it will be WCS.

Tetsujin · Mar 28, 2019

Joshoua said:

Zinger's in that Trae-column of dudes who have had mind boggling great offensive performances but also huge spans of mediocre basketball. Before his leg blew up last season, Zaps's play was starting to tail off from his insane start and I'm not sure he's shown enough to be fully considered a "star". His usage is probably going to decrease next to Luka why may help decrease the wear-and-tear on his body and his shooting stroke is pure enough that he shouldn't have too much trouble being an off-the-ball weapon. But I think he's going to have a bit of a problem on defense. He was a great rim protector in New York but the game has changed even more since he was last healthy and lateral quickness is always the last thing to return (if it does) after major leg injuries.

I mean, the Mavs already had pretty much lost this year's pick thanks to the Luka trade so that was never really gonna be an issue. The picks over the couple of years after that when you're going to have less cap space to work with thanks to Zaps' new contract are the real issue.

The_Jamal · Mar 28, 2019

206Fan said:

I haven't once said Trae is bad on offense in this thread. Think he's got a reasonably high ceiling somewhere in the range of the Boston version of IT with better vision. But apparently it's a hot-take that he's not putting up a historic season with relatively average numbers for a guy with his team role.

ESP47 · Mar 28, 2019

The_Jamal said:

It's not a hot take at all. I don't think he's putting up a historic season but you know damn well that a rookie putting up 19 and 8 isn't relatively average either. Those are ROY numbers most years.

Dime Dropper · Mar 28, 2019

It seems to be a common theme among a lot of Kings fans to have to minimise what other rookies are doing in order to elevate Bagley. It's not necessary, but I see it here constantly. It's pretty obvious some people aren't actually watching what these other kids are doing. This draft class is one of the best in a very long time. Bagley is awesome and so are plenty of other rookies. Way too early to know who's going to end up the best but it's far from clear-cut.

dude12 · Mar 28, 2019

Dime Dropper said:

Don’t necessarily disagree with the minimizing other rookies part except, on the other hand, one side is saying generational talent and things like that, I think this is where the sensationalism gets snowballing on many players and to be exact Bagley, Doncic and now Trae Young.......and was earlier JJJ.

I think most know that this is looking to be a special draft.

midtowner · Mar 28, 2019

I wanted Luka. He’s been an awesome rookie.

I thought Bagley was super talented, but his free throw shooting worried me coming out of Duke. I didn’t think he could become a knockdown shooter. And he looked super raw. But his pace of development has been shocking. I have no idea what his ceiling is. He might even become a good play maker down the line.

It is time to stop comparing them. They are different players in many ways and are both 6-8 years from their prime. It’s ok that Luka is the ROY and Trae is #2. The Kings recent track record for developing players is pretty promising.

parker · Mar 28, 2019

Dime Dropper said:

It's not a Kings fan thing, it's human nature.

We want to protect those in our tribe/group/family. You also see the opposite of what you are saying. Posters are elevating others, which intentionally or not, feels like it is minimizing what the Kings or their players are doing.

sergmatt · Mar 28, 2019

As has been mentioned several times this is really a great rookie class. There appears to be around 7 or 8 guys that are going to be great players and potential all-stars. Of those 7 or 8 maybe 4 or 5 can be franchise #1 options. There were also some nice role players in this draft such as Landry Shamet.

Ayton is actually having a great year for a rookie and is barely talked about. If not for Luka/Trae/Bagley, I'm sure Ayton would be getting a lot more attention. I still have just as many questions with Ayton though, is he going to be great or just really good at getting numbers on a losing team? He seems to lack that fire but it also doesn't help that Phoenix is a mess and constantly freezes him out of the offense.

Telemachus · Mar 28, 2019

Dime Dropper said:

I think some of that is human nature & some is over compensating for over the top praise of other rookies.

I said before the draft that there were 5 guys I could see winning ROY (Luka the most likely to win). I also felt there were about 7 players who could end up being the best player from this draft. I have seen nothing to change my mind other than I might have under estimated one ortwo other players.

gunks · Mar 28, 2019

Joshoua said:

Well, as Tetsujin mentioned above, Porzingis has a horrible health record. I have to think that played a big part in Vlade's decision making, because on paper that lineup looks pretty beastly!

I think the what-if factor will make it even more exciting/angsty when we (eventually) face the Mavs in the post season (you know, if Dallas doesn't duck us, what with Fox totally owning them and all)!

NME · Mar 28, 2019

KP had not only the injury question but was also signalling that he didn't want to sign a long-term extension, before you even get to the question of whether he's going to be as good as the first couple of months of last season. He has tailed off in performance each season even not counting injury, and leg injuries don't mix well with guys who are well over 7 foot.

Given all that, there's no way the Kings could consider trading a franchise cornerstone for him. Dallas's deal makes much more sense for them. Nobody on their roster truly mattered other than Doncic and now if it pans out you have two potential cornerstone-type players. A big elite wing creator and a unicorn big man are the two most sought after roles by NBA GM's other than "The Next Steph Curry."

Kingster · Mar 28, 2019

gunks said:

I think it may also be important to Vlade to have a reputation that he sticks with his young stars, that he's loyal and he doesn't want to willy-nilly trade them early in their careers even if he thinks it could possibly be a good trade. Sure, he traded Cousins. But it wasn't like he didn't go the extra mile with him to see if it could work. Small market teams have to be mindful of these kind of things, imo, in order to have a better chance of keeping their young stars when they get older and qualify for FA.

The_Jamal · Mar 28, 2019

Dime Dropper said:

Agreed. But isn't calling Trae Young's season "historical" doing the same exact thing? Trying to promote how we "screwed up" with Bagley?

I've always been on team wait at least 2 years before figuring out what a prospect is going to become. And it looks like everyone in the top 5 got an absolute gem that's going to be good for a long time. I just hate the victory laps some people decide to throw for themselves after 70 games of a guys career.

Joshoua · Mar 28, 2019

gunks said:

Agreed I’m just shocked because Fox didn’t have a stellar rookie year and Porzingis when healthy is legit.

206Fan · Mar 28, 2019

Joshoua said:

I think it shows how much confidence the FO and Vlade has in Fox. Now we see why... Fox is a damn stud. I don't like putting any expectations on our players, so I won't with him, but he's played like a damn near top 10 PG in this year.

KingsFanSince85 · Mar 29, 2019

Dime Dropper said:

I think you are looking at it all wrong. The KINGS fans you speak of are simply ‘reacting’ to the season-long hyperbole fest toward the players the team didn’t draft but fans can’t let go of because it was the player they wanted. Big, big difference there pal!

It began in SL and continued heavily into the first months of the season. Anytime one of the rookies not named MB3 had a great game it was referenced on this board as an ‘I told you so!’. Some fans took it all in stride and opted for a patient approach. However, it simply wore on them as the season dragged on and they suddenly had to start doing the same whenever MB3 played well and the other rookies had a misstep or two.

If anything, now you know how those fans felt from SL until MB3 began playing well — because he was minimized and marginalized by the fans that didn’t want the KINGS to draft him.

It goes both ways bro. The difference, to me anyway, is this is a KINGS board. So perhaps these fans, myself included, can be forgiven of getting sick and tired of the agenda of a dozen or so people that don’t want to let anyone forget that the KINGS should have drafted their guy.

I said this many times already, but I was on the 77 train hardcore and was mad for a few weeks after the draft. But I got over it, moved on and embraced Marvin Bagley. And I’ve moved even further to that side of support due to a select number of worshipers of the other players. That should say something to you. And keep in mind you won’t find heavy activity from me in the non-KINGS threads dedicated to these players. I’ve largely stayed away from those, as have others.

There’s a difference between proactiveness and reactiveness. The fans that you claim are minimizing are simply reacting to all the continuous hyperbole.

pdxKingsFan · Mar 30, 2019

I am back after a week away. I did see a few results in the ship bar that looked disappointing so I'm not caught up in Kings land but oh the debate is back on? *sigh*

I wanted Luka. He's been about what I expected, maybe even slightly better. But I say that because I expected him to have an incredible rookie season because he's a seasoned pro, just an NBA rook. People have made this distinction with other Euros before but somehow it doesn't apply to Luka because his age? I don't know. He's still got a leg up on kids coming from an increasingly dysfunctional AAU to college development system. You'd probably have to go back over 20 years to Tim Duncan to get a top talent in the draft that spent all 4 years in college. So Luka came in with a huge edge over everybody else because he didn't spend the last 4 years auditioning for the NBA, he spent it trying to win Spanish and Euro championships.

On the flip Bagley scared me a bit. I thought he had Shareef Abdur-Rahim written all over him (shiny stats no impact big man for you young'uns). There were some concerns about his coaching prior to one year at Duke, and also in the wake of the Ball family that may have been magnified.

Knowing this was a make or break year and we had no pick, and that Fox struggled so much and wasn't ready to run the team this year (wow was I wrong); getting the experienced vet/rookie with superstar potential was a no brainer. Right now I feel like we have two potential superstars in Bags and Fox who play well off each other plus a lot of next tier talent. Much like the best Kings teams of old.

So mostly I think this debate is kind of dumb. But what really strikes me is the moves each team has made since acquiring their pick. Hands down I'd rather be where we are than rebuilding again and banking on a Free Agency haul like Dallas is. Frankly Dallas looks to be in the DMC era-Kings rut (or maybe LeBron in his first stint in Cleveland). They've got their cornerstone guy who will probably doom them to mediocre picks for the entirety of his tenure. Losing their top picks on both ends of his arrival really complicates this fact.

Chupacabra · Mar 30, 2019

Yes, both players are very good. Yes, Bagley is better than Doncic. Come at me.

Tetsujin · Mar 30, 2019

pdxKingsFan said:

I am back after a week away. I did see a few results in the ship bar that looked disappointing so I'm not caught up in Kings land but oh the debate is back on? *sigh*

I wanted Luka. He's been about what I expected, maybe even slightly better. But I say that because I expected him to have an incredible rookie season because he's a seasoned pro, just an NBA rook. People have made this distinction with other Euros before but somehow it doesn't apply to Luka because his age? I don't know. He's still got a leg up on kids coming from an increasingly dysfunctional AAU to college development system. You'd probably have to go back over 20 years to Tim Duncan to get a top talent in the draft that spent all 4 years in college. So Luka came in with a huge edge over everybody else because he didn't spend the last 4 years auditioning for the NBA, he spent it trying to win Spanish and Euro championships.

On the flip Bagley scared me a bit. I thought he had Shareef Abdur-Rahim written all over him (shiny stats no impact big man for you young'uns). There were some concerns about his coaching prior to one year at Duke, and also in the wake of the Ball family that may have been magnified.

Knowing this was a make or break year and we had no pick, and that Fox struggled so much and wasn't ready to run the team this year (wow was I wrong); getting the experienced vet/rookie with superstar potential was a no brainer. Right now I feel like we have two potential superstars in Bags and Fox who play well off each other plus a lot of next tier talent. Much like the best Kings teams of old.

So mostly I think this debate is kind of dumb. But what really strikes me is the moves each team has made since acquiring their pick. Hands down I'd rather be where we are than rebuilding again and banking on a Free Agency haul like Dallas is. Frankly Dallas looks to be in the DMC era-Kings rut (or maybe LeBron in his first stint in Cleveland). They've got their cornerstone guy who will probably doom them to mediocre picks for the entirety of his tenure. Losing their top picks on both ends of his arrival really complicates this fact.

Things just got a little more interesting on that front.

Kingsfan23 · Mar 30, 2019

At this point I’d have it

Luka/Trae
Bagley
JJJ
Ayton

I’m just glad that I can count Marvin being one of the top rookies and having a chance at being the best down the line.

Joshoua · Mar 31, 2019

Chupacabra said:

Comical, can’t even make an argument for this

mac · Mar 31, 2019

pdxKingsFan said:

Part of the issue at least on this board is that there were a vocal number (majority or minority I don't know) who very much discounted Doncic precisely because he was coming from the Euro leagues. Where you now say seasoned vet experience they were saying low level of competition, NCAA better etc. You can understand why some did not such (IMO ridiculous) line of thinking very well, and are all the more fired up to say "I told you so", which is only worsened by some then trying to hype up Bags by putting Doncic down, saying he's capped out etc. I for one think Doncic has been incredible, but simultaneously have grown to think of Bagley as one of our bright stars. Why there's a need to make it an either / or is beyond me.

ESP47 · Mar 31, 2019

Bagley's defense as a center has been concerning. If the Kings want to make a playoff run next year, I don't think they can play him at the 5. He's going to have to be paired with a legitimate defensive 5. It sucks because it would open up a ton of options at the 4 if he could defend at center but from the eye test he has a long way to go in that regard.

King Baller · Mar 31, 2019

I remember when Don Nelson wanted to make CWebb a 5. Nellie was wrong about CWebb being a full time 5 and I think the same is true for Bagley. Bagley is best suited at the 4 where he does not expend lots of energy blocking out guys that out weigh him.

Reviewing Bagley v Luka

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