Rebounding still trouble spot for Kings

[VF21]

http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/446751.html

Rebounding still a trouble spot for Kings
By Sam Amick - Bee Staff Writer
Last Updated 6:07 am PDT Monday, October 22, 2007
Story appeared in SPORTS section, Page C10

A game without a team's small forward isn't typically cause for rebounding concern.

But the more recent Ron Artest has become one of the game's better rebounders at his position, and his absence Friday in Portland with a bruised left knee only made a bad situation worse.

The Kings were outrebounded 45-43, losing the battle for the fourth consecutive game and continuing a problem that plagued them last season. Through five exhibition games, the Kings had been beaten on the boards by an average of 5.4 rebounds. Last season, they were the league's second-worst in rebounding differential (minus-4.4).

They turned the trend Sunday against Portland, grabbing 40 rebounds to the Trail Blazers' 31.

"One area we still (stink) at and have got to get better is rebounding," Kings coach Reggie Theus said. "We just don't have a guy who has a nose for the ball. Rebounding is not just about jumping. You have to have a nose for the ball."

Artest, who bruised his left knee in a Wednesday collision with Utah point guard Ronnie Price, missed Sunday's game as well and is day-to-day.

Role play – Francisco García and Mikki Moore finally found the breakout game they were looking for.

The Kings swingman who entered shooting 33.3 percent from the field and had struggled to find a rhythm scored 21 points on 5 of 9 shooting against Portland. García also had three assists and four rebounds. Moore, who had been criticized by Theus for his condition during the exhibition season and struggled in all facets, had 13 points, eight rebounds and three assists.

Blazers hobbling – More than one favor was returned Sunday night. While the Kings' 24-point drubbing of the Trail Blazers evened things up after Friday's opposite outcome, Portland also came in nearly as banged up as the Kings had been before.

Forward LaMarcus Aldridge – who had 18 points Friday – sat with a sore right toe, as did reigning Rookie of the Year point guard Brandon Roy (sore left heel). While Artest remained out, Kings shooting guard Kevin Martin returned after missing the first matchup.

Nose for noses – Four games into the exhibition season, Artest was breaking noses at a rate of one per every two games.

In the exhibition opener against Seattle on Oct. 9, his inadvertent elbow caught a slashing Sonics point guard Luke Ridnour on the nose and has left him wearing a protective mask for at least month. Against Utah on Wednesday, Artest was a standing target as Price dove for a loose ball and planted his face on Artest's knee. The former Kings point guard, however, was even worse off than Artest, as X-rays revealed a small fracture in his nose.

About the writer: The Bee's Sam Amick can be reached at samick@sacbee.com.

 

[KingsFan93]

How many rebounds does Ron actually fetch?

Granted he's a good rebounder for the SF position but there's no way his absence should affect rebounding numbers that badly

edit: checked ron's numbers and he posted a solid 6.5 per game last year, pretty good stuff and a career season high; 'guess his presence really affects our rebounding after all

Artest for PF?

 

[Bricklayer]

How many rebounds does Ron actually fetch?

Granted he's a good rebounder for the SF position but there's no way his absence should affect rebounding numbers that badly

edit: checked ron's numbers and he posted a solid 6.5 per game last year, pretty good stuff and a career season high; 'guess his presence really affects our rebounding after all

Artest for PF?

No, you were right to ask the question in the first place. Its Amick who either doesn't know his player history, or just chose to ignore it.

Ron Artest has, over the course of his career, been a crappier rebounder than Peja. Last year was the best he has ever done, was mostly the result of him deciding to prove a point in December before announcing that he was getting too banged up rebounding in there and largely regressing, and the overall 6.5 isn't particularly stellar. Solid, but missing him is hardly a cause for rebounding apocalypse. And in this preseason, this great cause for concern for us has averaged 2.6rebs a game in 22.2min.

In other words if your orginal response to that entire section of the article was "oh please", your instincts were correct.

 

[jcassio]

Rebounding still a trouble spot for Kings? Duh.
Miller: below avg rebounder in a crowd (doesn't block many shots either)
Mikki: ok at rebounding, but at this point in his career, he is what he is
Hawes: hasn't shown anyone (yet) that he might have a 'nose' for rebounds
Watkins: ok at rebounding, but can this undrafted rookie get minutes?
Williams: can rebound & block shots, but does he have a future in the NBA?
SAR: see Miller
KT: avg to above avg rebounder (for a PF), but otherwise has regressed as a player
Artest: rebounding has never been his thing - until he was asked to do it last year. So he picked it up. But it also took a toll on him physically (back spasms). From this point on, I look for Artest to be a slightly above avg rebounder for a small forward.

If Reggie can somehow get maximum rebounding effort from this group of guys, the team would be a middle-of-the-pack rebounding team at best.
But a key problem is giving big minutes to Miller and enough minutes to Hawes (to progress quickly). I can't argue with giving these guys the minutes, but with either of them on the floor, we need a complementary player who is an animal for rebounds. Williams may have that type of potential, but - again - we may never see him again in a Kings uniform...

 

[KingsFan93]

Reggie Evans
Jeff Foster
David Lee
Kurt Thomas
Drew Gooden
Etan Thomas
Jamaal Magloire

All of the above were available or trade-rumored during the past year

 

[VF21]

Reggie Evans
Jeff Foster
David Lee
Kurt Thomas
Drew Gooden
Etan Thomas
Jamaal Magloire

All of the above were available or trade-rumored during the past year

And your point is?

 

[fnordius]

Good thing we didn't get Etan Thomas, since he's needed heart surgery and is out for the year.

Articles like this make me glad I'm not a sports journalist. Having to write repeated "Kings still can't rebound" articles can't be a fun way to fill the required column inches.

 

[Bricklayer]

And your point is?

All big rebounders. Unfortunately that's about all they do, but these excuses and excuses and excuses for excuses about how Geoff just has had no opportunity to bring in rebounding are just lame. Rebounders are out there, some better, some worse as overall players, Geoff just does not put enough of a premium on it to go get them when he can have a guy who looks good on offense instead. And who knows whether that makes us a better team or not given the limitation of some of those guys. But it would certainly make us a better rebounding team than we are with all this "team rebounding" hooey.

 

[LA King Fan II]

The Lakers have:

Chris Mihms
Ronny Turiaf
Kwame Brown
Andrew Bynum
Lamarr Odom

Arguably any of whom would be the best rebounder on the Kings. The scary thing the Lakers say they are going nowhere until they get a decent big man.

Where does that leave the Kings after their stalwart front line moves? Could Miller, Rahim, Thomas, Williams or Hawes even make the Lakers?

 

[KingsFan93]

Geoff just does not put enough of a premium on it to go get them when he can have a guy who looks good on offense instead.

And why is that?

Why this apparent interest in our GM to recruit more offensive-minded players in the middle...

And your point is?

I just like to see similar players in a Kings uniform for a change... what do we have to lose at this point?

 

[VF21]

Look at your list again.

Reggie Evans - I don't think so.
Jeff Foster - No real indication he was going anywhere
David Lee - What they wanted we wouldn't have given; and what we would have given they wouldn't have wanted.
Etan Thomas - Um, he just had his heart repaired.

So while you can put up a list of names of possibilities, NONE of them were likely to come to Sacramento anyway.

 

[VF21]

All big rebounders. Unfortunately that's about all they do, but these excuses and excuses and excuses for excuses about how Geoff just has had no opportunity to bring in rebounding are just lame. Rebounders are out there, some better, some worse as overall players, Geoff just does not put enough of a premium on it to go get them when he can have a guy who looks good on offense instead. And who knows whether that makes us a better team or not given the limitation of some of those guys. But it would certainly make us a better rebounding team than we are with all this "team rebounding" hooey.

Sorry, but I'm not even coming onto the lot to take that for a test drive. The assumption you always seem to make as a premise for your discussions is that Geoff Petrie simply doesn't know what he's doing. I don't think it's true. We acquired Moore (a legit 7 footer even if you don't like him) and Hawes this off-season and Brad looks to be in arguably the best shape he's been in for a very long time. In addition, Kenny thomas is aggressively going for boards and looks as though he actually can be a contributing player on our team.

Most of the guys on the list above are questionable at best for one reason or another. I don't think we missed the boat on any of them.

 

[Gary]

Kings didn't help themselves in the rebounding department by signing Moore. I honestly think they would have done better just giving JW the time on the floor if he is going to be on the team.

I actually think Hawes will do an OK job though. I can see him averaging about 8-9 a game as a starter which is OK in my books if we have a strong rebounding PF. Too bad there isn't going to be one in the draft this year... We can probally get a guy like DeAndre Jordan and move Hawes to PF or something. It's not unheard of to have a couple 7 footers on the front line

 

[VF21]

I truly believe Mikki Moore is going to be a pleasant surprise, much like John Salmons was. I simply don't see the Kings ever becoming a rebounding juggernaut, but I have already seen more hustle on the part of our guards in going for boards than I can recall seeing in the recent past.

My main point is, though, that I don't think acquiring those players who were actually available on the list above would necessarily have solved any problems. If anything, it might actually have backfired. Can you imagine the angst if we had traded away for Etan Thomas?

 

[Gary]

I would rather have a 6'10 player hustling for a rebound than a 6'6 guard/forward. We need to get a big that can rebound. Too often during pre-season I saw Moore sitting there getting pushed around on the boards. He just does not have the rebounders body. Unfortunately the only big on the team that can board is absent. I can't see a big on our team averaging more than 4-5 a game unless Hawes gets some time.

 

[VF21]

And I don't care who hustles for the rebound as much as I care that SOMEONE hustles for the board. I'm seeming a lot more of it this time around and that's gratifying at this point in the pre-season. You know me - I always look for something to be encouraged about.

 

[fnordius]

I simply don't see the Kings ever becoming a rebounding juggernaut, but I have already seen more hustle on the part of our guards in going for boards than I can recall seeing in the recent past.

It's just two ways of looking at the same thing. Yes, our guards, as a group, are rebounding much better, and there's nothing bad that can be said about that. The "glass half empty" perspective is that, with KT and Orien Greene leading the team in rebounds per minute of PT, our bigs are not doing the job that many of us assume they should do.

While Geoff was a terrible rebounder personally (3-4 reb per 40), and his Trailblazers weren't a very strong team, he always had a lot of support in that department. In 1970-3, the Blazers always had 3-9 players that got from 10-14 rebounds per 40. We have zero rebounders at that level. Our leading rebounder is KT at 8.0 per 40. And that's messed up.

 

[Bricklayer]

At a certain point it just strays into the land of pure wishful thinking. Yes indeedy, turns out the key to any team rebounding better in the NBA is a coach coming in and telling them -- hey guys! Rebound better! And voila! Yeah right. Wish more coaches had thought of that. Hell even Reggie doesn't buy it -- I noted his quote in the paper the other day about guys wiht a nose for the ball. Its an instinct like anything else.

And I judge Geoff on his record. Not his nameplate. I don't wear purple slippers, and I don't care what he did a decade ago, except as a historical reference to better times. The sentimental position has always been inconsistent and a little desperate anyway. Yes, Geoff is a genius...except he's not making genius moves. Oh, wait, they are genius moves...except that we have gotten worse for 6 straight years. Oh wait...he's doing the best he can given what he has to work with...except of course he was the guy who went out and acquired what he has to work with in the first place. And so on. And it only gets more ridiculous the longer and longer it goes on.

And overtouting Mikki Moore can only end badly for those who attempt it. This is Mikki Moore's career: 16.1min/gm 5.6pts 3.5rebs. Meaning if you played him 32 min/gm he might get you 7. Maybe. Because his boarding has gotten weaker with age (last year in 32min he would have gotten you a smidge over 6). Being a good guy doesn't matter. Having fun hair doesn't matter. And being enthusiastic doesn't matter. It just makes it more entertaining to watch for the cheap seats. The results are the same. Mikki is Mikki. And at age 32 (in a week) after 9 years in the league I don't expect him to be anything but Mikki. You sign him for cheap to fill out your bench, you are glad to have him -- I once advocated such a move in the good ole days. You dump $18mil on him as some sort of half-assed patch/answer to your problems, you're a dupe.

 

[Entity]

On a side note. History shows that teams that run and gun the whole game are typically not good rebounding teams. So I would suggest you not to look at the rebounding numbers this season to determine if we won or lost. I suspect we could get beat by as many as 15 rebounds and still win the game. In fact I think we have done that this preseason.

 

[VF21]

And I judge Geoff on his record. Not his nameplate. I don't wear purple slippers...

I'd be more than happy to send you some purple slippers. Just tell me what size...

And overtouting Mikki Moore can only end badly for those who attempt it.

I don't think it's overtouting him to comment on the good I've seen so far.

Just a matter of different expectations, I suppose, as always. I'm going to root for the guys who wear the uniform because being a fan means TO ME that you root in the now. And I'm going to find reasons to be hopeful because it makes being a fan more fun for me.

My expectations are different than yours, Brickie. Always have been and I strongly suspect always will be. But that's what makes discussions with you so much fun.

 

[Padrino]

On a side note. History shows that teams that run and gun the whole game are typically not good rebounding teams. So I would suggest you not to look at the rebounding numbers this season to determine if we won or lost. I suspect we could get beat by as many as 15 rebounds and still win the game. In fact I think we have done that this preseason.

the kings are not--i repeat--ARE NOT a run and gun team. this is a team with brad miller (i'd rather be hunting guy), kenny thomas (i'll hustle when i'm damn ready to hustle guy), shareef abdur-rahim (i'm getting too old for this **** guy), mike bibby (i'm "deceptively quick," which means i'm not very quick at all guy), and spencer hawes (i've had four knee surgeries before playing a single nba game guy). ron artest is a much better half court player than an on-the-break player, and his decision-making in the open court has never impressed me. mikki moore has some length and some mild athleticism, but he's turning 32 soon. he's definitely slowing down. john salmons doesn't have incredible footspeed, either. kevin martin is really the only member of this kings team with the speed and athleticism to actually play a run and gun game. quincy douby has some quickness, but he's one of those guys that will probably act as a trailer in a fast break situation, camping out on the wings for the kick-out so he can shoot a jumper. francisco garcia has some quickness, as well, but he's rarely shown an ability to make good decisions in the open court.

in short, reggie theus may very well want to turn the kings into a fast break team, but he's about 5 athletic players shy of being able to pull it off. eric musselman said the same things when he got to sacramento. he wanted to turn the kings into runners and gunners. that didn't work, and he spent the next 3/4 of last season fiddling around with systems that didn't work. reggie needs to be careful that he doesn't find himself in the same position. seriously. i know how excited everybody is over the charismatic and no-nonsense reggie theus they've seen during the preseason, but so far the comparison to last preseason is eerily similar. there's just a few minor new players on the court. the rest is the same. theus needs to assess his team's strengths and weaknesses, and play to those strengths and weaknesses. he's gonna have a helluva time turning this team into either a) a run and gun team or b) a good rebounding team. he just doesn't have the personnel he needs, and this is truly unfortunate.

 

[Jerichoholic]

http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/446751.html

"One area we still (stink) at and have got to get better is rebounding," Kings coach Reggie Theus said. "We just don't have a guy who has a nose for the ball. Rebounding is not just about jumping. You have to have a nose for the ball."

This sounds dangerously close to what Musselman said last year about not having any defenders. I'm not saying that it's not the truth, but if it is then we should have made that our focus this offseason.

Unfortunately "team rebounding" doesn't work the same as team defense. If you don't have any strong individual rebounders then you will lose that battle to teams that do. The only guys the Kings have are Justin Williams and it appears Darryl Watkins, neither of which will get any significant minutes if they even make the team. I guess we'll have to make up the difference with turnovers and defense.

 

[KingsFan93]

a) a run and gun team

How's that for run & gun:

F.Garcia
R.Artest
J.Williams
M.Bibby
K.Martin

 

[KingsFan93]

Look at your list again.

Reggie Evans - I don't think so.
Jeff Foster - No real indication he was going anywhere
David Lee - What they wanted we wouldn't have given; and what we would have given they wouldn't have wanted.
Etan Thomas - Um, he just had his heart repaired.

So while you can put up a list of names of possibilities, NONE of them were likely to come to Sacramento anyway.

I just listed those who mostly available... in addition to Gooden, Kurt Thomas and Magloire.

 

[Gary]

How's that for run & gun:

F.Garcia
R.Artest
J.Williams
M.Bibby
K.Martin

I like, but you still have half-court Artest on the team, along with unexperienced JW, slow and low Bibby.. The only two guys I can see running effectively is Martin, and Garcia. Bibby MAYBE... Just because he's been there and done that..

That's why I think Ron does not fit with our team. Ron belongs on a team like the Heat where the power game is played. Or even Detroit if they were to get rid of Prince. Ron is an east coast player on a west coast team. He's a damn good player, but not for our system we are trying to run. That's why I think we should get as much as we can for him as soon as possible I don't mind keeping Bibby because he knows what to do.

 

[dude12]

I'm sure that Petrie realizes that Moore was not going to fill the rebounding hole that we have. I think we're getting what is expected of the guy....energy, good defense, and I'm hoping he knocks down his open shots. The only way Sac rebounds well is as a team. Our big men need to put a body on someone and then our guards need to go do their part. Personally, I'm not a big fan of having a one-dimensional PF/C who will just board unless his name is Rodman or Ben Wallace. Those guys are hard to find. Is Justin Williams that type of player? He's that type but not as good as those guys. I'd rather have players who can do it on both ends of the court. There are going to be games when we get pounded on the boards.

 

[dude12]

How's that for run & gun:

F.Garcia
R.Artest
J.Williams
M.Bibby
K.Martin

I think we will see Artest at the 4 more this year when its necessary. Take out Justin Williams and insert Miller or Mikki or Hawes and I think that lineup works in stretches.

 

['89 Kings Fan]

Ron Artest has, over the course of his career, been a crappier rebounder than Peja.

Does this mean we can stop with the Nellieball Ron at PF and Salmons at SF? Ron is a SF and Salmons is SG who can sometimes swing to PG. Last year Salmons stunk at SF and excelled at PG. I don't know why this is so hard. Also when everyone is healthy we have 5-6 players at PF/C who expect to play. (Brad/SAR/Kenny/Mikki/Hawes/Justin?) Why have Ron steal minutes from half the roster?

 

[Gary]

Does this mean we can stop with the Nellieball Ron at PF and Salmons at SF? Ron is a SF and Salmons is SG who can sometimes swing to PG. Last year Salmons stunk at SF and excelled at PG. I don't know why this is so hard. Also when everyone is healthy we have 5-6 players at PF/C who expect to play. (Brad/SAR/Kenny/Mikki/Hawes/Justin?) Why have Ron steal minutes from half the roster?

Last year when Garcia played the SF he actually did pretty well. That's one of the reasons I would like him over Salmons starting at SF for the first 7 games. I don't mind playing Salmons for stretches at SF, but his natural position is SG/PG. Garcia is longer, and more athletic. Salmons seems to get pushed around more which is probally due to him not being fast enough to recover when pushed. Garcia is better in that respect. Plus Garcia actually can rebound pretty well for a SF, plus block some shots.

 

[Gary]

I'm sure that Petrie realizes that Moore was not going to fill the rebounding hole that we have. I think we're getting what is expected of the guy....energy, good defense, and I'm hoping he knocks down his open shots. The only way Sac rebounds well is as a team. Our big men need to put a body on someone and then our guards need to go do their part. Personally, I'm not a big fan of having a one-dimensional PF/C who will just board unless his name is Rodman or Ben Wallace. Those guys are hard to find. Is Justin Williams that type of player? He's that type but not as good as those guys. I'd rather have players who can do it on both ends of the court. There are going to be games when we get pounded on the boards.

This is where Petrie is to blame. Why the heck would you get a seven footer that cant rebound when you already have one in Brad? Seriously.. Brad or Moore in the game they will give you pretty much the same thing. And playing them together? Brad does a lot better when he plays next to a guy that can board. Not a clone of himself.

You don't hide someones faults by putting a guy next to him that has the same faults. That just magnifies it!