Ray McCallum
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ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
They're going to have one heck of a time getting IT to be content with going back to that role on this team. Although on another team in a different situation, I think he would with no fuss
Chubbs
Starter
Nope. Has to play Sunday to wear his pizza guy jersey. Money talks.
throw in 10 assists/1 turnover and the shots aren't as much of a problem.Hmm... somebody somewhere told me that wasn't a recipe for success
Ray had a wonderful game. 19 FGA though, better be careful before the PGs-shouldn't-shoot brigade comes after him
But really, what makes him a better "fit" (not the same thing as better player mind you) is he doesn't turn the ball over. Since rudy and cousins do a lot, ray provides better balance.
Isaiah Thomas @Isaiah_Thomas2 14h
Proud of my dude @RayMac3... He lead us to victory tonight, Way 2 hoop Brodie!
Now I know twitter is hardly evidence in trying to argue a point one way or another, but I think you'll have buy-in from IT in any role, with paying him fairly and giving him minutes. Personally, I see plenty of room for a Ray-Ben-IT back-court in the future where all guys can get 30+MPG. Last I checked, there are 96 minutes in the back-court.
I'd also absolutely love to see us let IT truly embrace his inner Iverson and see a Ray-IT back-court with Ray being the primary ball-handler and then having him D up SG's. I'd be mightily intrigued to see what happens with IT's game in an off-ball role. If you played it that way, you could have a variety of offensive sets with 1. Always having an elite scoring partner in the back-court with Cuz, and 2. Utilizing Gay more in the post when Cousins is on the bench.
Gary
All-Star
Probably not. I can see him putting up 12/6 or something there about if he had started the entire season. The league is more offensive oriented so PGs are benefitting. We have not had this many PGs that have looked so good in a very long time (based on stats alone). It still takes a special player to take the team to the next level. I don't see McCallum as a "special player" as of yet. He has done a lot of things well though in the last few games.
randymoss1881
Starter
PurpleHaze
All-Star
Maybe he'd complain loudly, maybe not, but it would be behind closed doors for sure. I think Kings FO holds the trump card by making it clear to IT - do it our way little dude or go ahead and become free agent.
I'm pretty sure IT does not believe he is losing his starting spot to Ray McCallum. I think Ray (assuming his growth remains positive) is a better fit with Cousins and Gay, but I don't think that IT thinks so. I'm pretty sure that IT was not worried after the first two games, but what he's finding (as we are) is that McCallum is certainly more than serviceable at the PG position, and it might worry him a little as we head into the offseason. While giving McCallum these minutes helped clear up some questions, I think it DID open up a few more.
I do think that it gave the FO a little more rope in terms of dealing with IT during the summer, but I do worry what will happen once McCallum becomes a focal point of the other team's defense. He seems more mature and ready than most we've brought in, and he seems to have the smarts to quickly adjust. He does handle the ball well, and he looks to be able to not only set people up a little better but also impact the game defensively, where if he's having a bad game offensively, he can hopefully do a lot more to help impact the team positively. Incidentally, he also seems to have a 4th quarter switch, which is a nice thing to have, no?
Finally, (again, basing this off of 4 games) Ray McCallum seems like the more prototypical throw-back rookie who comes in ready to play a little faster than a lot of the one-and-dones who may take more time to acclimate to the NBA. I know Brick is worried about regression (and rightfully so), but while, yeah, he was a mid-major kid, he was also someone who turned down UCLA, Arizona, Florida to play for his dad in Detroit.
I do think that it gave the FO a little more rope in terms of dealing with IT during the summer, but I do worry what will happen once McCallum becomes a focal point of the other team's defense. He seems more mature and ready than most we've brought in, and he seems to have the smarts to quickly adjust. He does handle the ball well, and he looks to be able to not only set people up a little better but also impact the game defensively, where if he's having a bad game offensively, he can hopefully do a lot more to help impact the team positively. Incidentally, he also seems to have a 4th quarter switch, which is a nice thing to have, no?
Finally, (again, basing this off of 4 games) Ray McCallum seems like the more prototypical throw-back rookie who comes in ready to play a little faster than a lot of the one-and-dones who may take more time to acclimate to the NBA. I know Brick is worried about regression (and rightfully so), but while, yeah, he was a mid-major kid, he was also someone who turned down UCLA, Arizona, Florida to play for his dad in Detroit.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Funny, this is where the natural progression of thought and conversation went anyway.
I'm literally shocked to see others making a connection between how Ray is playing and how it might effect our PG situation. It's a celebratory thread guys. Stay on point. I'll get it back on track.
Woohoo, Ray! You're awesome. No further discussion needed.
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Jkbiker
Starter
Its just so clear to me that Ray has shown he belongs as one of our PGs for next year, He is totally ready to be our regular backup PG and can be a starting guard if our starter is injured. Easy Call!!
IT will be the big question mark as to whether the
FO will decide to pay big bucks to keep him
After draft night it will be very clear, If they draft Smart or Exum then unless IT wants to be a long term spark plug off the bench at 6-mil a year IT will take the big bucks elsewhere
If we end up drafting a Big, then the FO will probably overpay IT up to 9-10 mil to keep IT
IT will be the big question mark as to whether the
FO will decide to pay big bucks to keep him
After draft night it will be very clear, If they draft Smart or Exum then unless IT wants to be a long term spark plug off the bench at 6-mil a year IT will take the big bucks elsewhere
If we end up drafting a Big, then the FO will probably overpay IT up to 9-10 mil to keep IT
Nobody is going to take Landry or JT off our hands for anything, let alone a pick. Landry especially -- he isn't even close to a player who is earning his contract. No chance anybody touches him. JT has a little more value and might be tradable if other players were involved, but I doubt a team would take on his salary, give up a pick and not give us salary back.
But since Isaiah will be a restricted free agent, we don't have to pay one penny above his market value. We've already proven last year that we're willing to let an RFA walk, and that would play very heavily on the minds of any teams who might be tempted to strategically "tempt" us into overpaying for IT. As such, I don't think IT will get any above-market-value offers - any team signing him to an offer sheet will be at the top end of the market, and we merely have to decide whether that's worthwhile to us. But the point is, if we end up paying IT $9-10M (which I find quite doubtful), it will be because the market set that price and we matched it, not because we overbid the market.
That's a really good point and something I never thought of as a benefit to letting Tyreke walk.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
No questions about Ray. I thought he was an odd 2nd rd choice as we already had too many guards. My faith in the FO is gradually coming around. No matter what he contributes in the future, he was a very good 2nd rd pick. He's a pg who knows when to call his own number. When he was hot, he aggressively looked for his own shot and that's a matter of good judgment. He knows he's a third or 4th option and most of the time, unless wide open, needs to defer to his betters. He also knows that when his shot is on, he's the temporary #1 option.
A few extra years in college and a father for a coach probably helped a great deal.
A few extra years in college and a father for a coach probably helped a great deal.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Thing people have to keep in mind is that Ray STILL, even with the big game, has shown little ability to run our halfcourt offense. His effectiveness has been in the open court and scramble situations. That's a concern if you are planning on starting a guy.
And while the game feels quite different, I should also note the oddity that we are cheering on a guy averaging 16.5 shots a game as a starter, when Isaiah is a problem averaging 16.4 FGA as a starter. I do think there is more difference than the raw stats indicate, both with Ray playing impossible minutes right now, and BECAUSE he hasn't shown much half court ability: simply put he doesn't take shots from the Cuz/Gay duo in our halfcourt "offense", and its hard to imagine him having the balls to do so, where IT has grander delusions. But its still an interesting phenomenon worth a little thought.
And while the game feels quite different, I should also note the oddity that we are cheering on a guy averaging 16.5 shots a game as a starter, when Isaiah is a problem averaging 16.4 FGA as a starter. I do think there is more difference than the raw stats indicate, both with Ray playing impossible minutes right now, and BECAUSE he hasn't shown much half court ability: simply put he doesn't take shots from the Cuz/Gay duo in our halfcourt "offense", and its hard to imagine him having the balls to do so, where IT has grander delusions. But its still an interesting phenomenon worth a little thought.
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You were right; I was wrong. Feel better now?
Livinthedream
All-Star
The most important thing to note in this video is how quickly Ray gets rid of the ball in the beginning of the offensive set. While he's not a classic "shot creator" type of PG, he also doesn't do anything to stall the offense. In fact, everyone has to be on their toes because the ball may be coming their way. If you're open, you get the ball. Ray makes the offense go simply by giving up the ball and then moving to an open spot away from the ball. (motion)
I like IT and can't deny his talent. But like others have said, he's more valuable to us as a sixth man, where he can do what he does best. Which is create shots for himself. That's not a bad thing. It just plays a certain role.
The Hammer
All-Star
The guy's a point guard coach's son who seems very humble and a quick learner. I have a hard time thinking he wouldn't know he's not really facilitating the offense, and will be able to improve that aspect in time. A guy can't come in being good at everything. You have to establish your game at the next level. He may also not be being asked to do so quite so much. Message from the coaches right now could be to just let him run and have less structure, so he can get a feel for the NBA game and find his shot and confidence. I see no reason to think he can't learn to be that playmaker/facilitate an offense. It's really not the hard part of being a point guard.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Er...I would argue that's precisely the hard point of playing PG. I think you're probably thinking you got have skills first, then learn the game second -- i.e. the Jimmer problem.
The funny thing with Ray though is that most guys who struggle running halfcourt offense are speedy blasters like Wall or Isaiah who have just had such a big advantage and have so much fun running up and down the court going weeeeeeee! that they never learned the patience for the halfcourt game. That's not Ray. In fact watching I don't he's actually all that particularly jaw droppingly talented. His effectiveness in the open court is all about hustle and aggression, not blinding speed, or quick release, or nasty handles. I haven't decided whether that's a good sign or a bad sign for his halfcourt prospects. On the one hand he shouldn't be philosophically opposed or constantly fighting an instinctual urge to chuck the ball at the rim. On the other hand, you would expect a guy like that, because he isn't being converted from chucker/runner to actual PG, to already be better as a halfcourt guy. Watching Isaiah play halfcourt I can clearly identify when his brain fails him, and he screws something up because he just doesn't think the position right. That's not Ray's problem at all.
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The Hammer
All-Star
Well if you're thinking running it like Chris Paul or Steve Nash, the guys who took that to a virtuoso level, then yeah it's hard. But if you're thinking Steve Blake or even Mike Conley... that's not a hard skill set to put together, if you spent 4 years in college running a team. It's mostly a matter of what's being asked of you, and what type of system is in place. In Isaiah's case, no, it's not his strength, so the coaches are trying to play to his strength, while slowly getting him to learn the halfcourt game.
My point with Ray is that he's seen so little playing time, that I don't think they are really asking that of him yet, but rather letting him get his NBA legs under him, get his confidence. I think they're not trying to ask too much of him too soon. But, I actually do see signs that he has that skill set. He was doing it much more in summer league, for example. But once again, it's about having a defined role in a system. Thing is our players are so young, they need time to adjust to the NBA game before they can grow/define their role. I think it's simply not within his role (yet) to consistently run the halfcourt offense. Not that he can't do it. Or can't easily learn/adjust to it. Hell we don't even really have a half court system. We have a few plays/read options/pick n rolls/couple double screens, etc. We just don't have a sophisticated enough offense, with enough working defined parts, that a rookie point guard should rightly be asked to be the "general" of. Let the guy figure out that he can score, drive, dribble around, and shoot at the NBA level first... then when we have a full training camp with more of our future pieces... see what he's given to do.
As this season is bearing out... it really was mostly about clearing old pieces and getting rid of stale attitudes clogging the air. The actaul season really seemed to have started after the trade deadline.
Oh and wtf, the Jimmer problem?? The basic pg skills were exactly his problem! He didn't have them. No comparison to Ray, who can dribble, protect the ball, etc. Jimmer lacked the skills AND was trying to learn the pg position.
Bosnian Diehard
Starter
With Ray, I feel like the ball will always go where it needs to be (he'll feed the man with the hot hand, make the right play). And two things everyone else has pointed out, his assists to turnover ratio is GREAT, especially for a rookie and he is also a very good defender. I was one of those people angry with the selection on Draft Night but I sure as hell love it now. I definitely see his ceiling as being a good starter, now we'll see how much he works (and how hard) in this upcoming offseason. Also makes things interesting when it comes to (potentially) resigning IT.
I'm glad I was able to witness his first ever start live, versus New York.
I'm glad I was able to witness his first ever start live, versus New York.
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
I don't see it. Ray hasn't had issues running the halfcourt offense in the last game and half or so. What we do have is a double standard unfortunately.
Most of the fourth quarter highlights are Ray playing pick and roll with Cousins, taking jumpshots when necessary. His driving game also looks pretty promising despite his troubles finishing around the rim. He took shots when he was supposed to. And, contrary to the belief of certain knuckleheads who want to break furniture everytime the PG takes a shot, thats a good thing. You want your PG to be aggressive in the pick and roll, and to be a threat against a compromised defense. Otherwise you are handicapping your offense.
Its interesting that the results look very similar to what Isaiah gives the team on a daily basis, yet Isaiah is the red-headed stepchild while Ray is the golden boy. The one difference I can see is that Ray is far less turnover-prone than Isaiah; otherwise, Ray did a splendid job replacing Isaiah's scoring and agressiveness in the offense on Monday. I personally don't have a dog in the fight. If Ray wants to replace Isaiah's role in the offense while providing better defense, thats just another point for Team D'Alessandro and a win for the team. The double standards and the rhetorical dancing around these parts to justify those double standards, however, are fascinating.
And then again, we are prognosticating from a career night for a Rookie with 4 starts under his belt, looking less than impressive more often than he's succeeded. Currently 1-3 record for the kid.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
It would appear you are missing/ignoring one incredibly obvious difference. (Hint: It starts with a D.)
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Actually they are pretty different: last 4 games was up and down for Ray, included some garbage time to pad stats, but here are per48 of Ray's last 4 games vs IT's season long stats:
---------shots---FTs---ast---TOs
Ray-----17.6----3.5----7.5---1.86
IT-------21.1----8.0---8.8---4.13
To be fair to IT with his TO problem, in his absence Cousins and Rudy having to create more, upped their per36 assist averages only by 0.8apg, while creating 1.8 TOpg more. And overall Kings averaged 15.5 TOpg versus average 14.1.
Still when you get the amount of possessions, IT makes final decision in, multiply it by the amount of time he controls the ball during possessions, someone else finishes, Ray starts to look like a really dialed back version of Thomas, which is a good thing, when he's surrounded by better offensive players.
P.S. There's still 7 games left with 6 against teams still playing for something. Sample size will get bigger.
I think that depends on how much longer IT's quad "injury" lasts. I'd think that he'll be back by next game. However, if the wrist injury is legit (and I think it might be), then he might be on the shelf longer.
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
Sample sizes are still way too small to be comparing averages, especially considering the first two games Ray looked like a headless chicken out there. But in the last two games where he's looked most comfortable, he's taken more FGA than Demarcus twice and Rudy once. I, honestly, am perfectly fine with that. Seems like most around here are OK with it too. As long as its not Isaiah.
