Race to the Bottom thread

Yeah the Capt and I mostly agree you need to focus on control not motivation.

not sure exactly what you mean by ""control"

but

my strategy is always to seek self-motivation by the principals, to structure the system so that people acting in their own interests are in fact advancing the cause of the agency (in this case, the nba).

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now, i go wildly off topic to make an analogy:


for instance, the new baseball rules (ghost runners, ect).

the baseball commissioner had choices, but he seemed to focus on "penalties and restrictions" rather than "incentives" (to change conduct)

so we have a system where pitchers and hitters are penalized (a ball or strike assessed) if they take too long getting play underway.

and pitchers are restricted from repeatedly "throwing to first" (to hold a runner on) - after two throws over, the pitcher must deliver to the plate.

the overall goal was to "speed up the game", resulting in "shorter" games (and ot DID work - games ARE "shorter")

but to keep the games "shorter", the extra innings format was drastically changed, with a runner being "placed" on second base in each half inning of extra play (to make sure someone scores and the game doesn't drag on for 17 mostly scoreless extra innings).

the alternative (which i favored) would be to "incentivize" pitchers and hitters to put the ball in play earlier (it used to be said of brandon belt that "his at-bat didn't really begin until he got to three and two").

the incentives could have been quite simple.

you create a system whereby pitchers WANT to "come in with the pitch" (throwing strikes) rather than "nibbling at the corners" until you HAVE to deliver a "hittable" pitch

so, you change the "rules"

for hitters:

"if a hitter shall reach base with no strikes in the count (swinging early), he shall be awarded an extra base" (and if that causes other baserunners to be advanced, so be it).

for pitchers:

you use the "immaculate inning" statistic but make it WORTH something.

you initiate a "rule", some version of, "if a pitcher shall throw an 'immaculate inning', his team shall begin the next half inning with two runs on the scoreboard" (pitchers can no longer "drive in" runs *because they no longer "hit", but they CAN use their pitching excellence to score runs for their team).

you probably give a pitcher's team two runs for a standard immaculate inning. but you ALSO add a rule that says, "if a number of pitchers, over the course of two innings, shall retire any three consecutive batters on nine pitches with no ball put in play, (which would be known as an "immaculate outing"}, their team has one run already on the board to start the next half inning"

now you have an incentive based system. pitchers are continually incentivized to throw strikes from the get-go (in order to put a run or two on the board for their team) AND you have hitters LOOKING to put the first pitch in play to both remove the possibility of an "immaculate inning or outing" (runs scored AGAINST their team) AND to get into scoring position on a single (second base awarded if you reach first with no strikes in the count), or put yourself on third with a first pitch double (and the extra base)

sure it's complicated. but imagine taking your kid to a game. under current rules, how the hell is dad going to explain to sonny-boy HOW that guy starts the tenth inning (and every half inning thereafter) on second base. did he get a hit while no one was watching? WHAT? - he didn't EARN his way on base?

whereas with an incentive based system, the hitter or pitcher EARN runs or extra bases for their team by their performance.

either way, it's going to mean "learning new and sometimes complicated rules", but under an incentive based system, you don't have umpires calling a ball or strike BECAUSE "nothing happened" (in a specified time frame) - instead, pitchers have a reason to throw strikes early and often and hitters have the incentive to swing early in the count. so, shorter games.

but the commissioner was interested in shortening "the time between pitches" (using penalties and restrictions), rather than reducing the NUMBER of (overall) pitches in a game (shortening the game that way).

and in an incentivized system, starters stay in the game longer (do you REALLY want to see logan webb removed after five shutout innings because he is approaching a hundred pitches?)

so, this was a brief diversion into "baseball rule changes" and the value of an "incentive based system" versus a "penalty based system"
 
Zubac out for the rest of the season with a a rib injury. I know they already saw their best player blow out his Achilles in game 7 of the finals but I hope the basketball gods punish the Pacers for quite possibly the most blatant disregard for winning since the Hinkie Sixers.

a "rib injury"?

sounds like a way to hold him out/lose more games
 
not sure exactly what you mean by ""control"

but

my strategy is always to seek self-motivation by the principals, to structure the system so that people acting in their own interests are in fact advancing the cause of the agency (in this case, the nba).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

now, i go wildly off topic to make an analogy:


for instance, the new baseball rules (ghost runners, ect).

the baseball commissioner had choices, but he seemed to focus on "penalties and restrictions" rather than "incentives" (to change conduct)

so we have a system where pitchers and hitters are penalized (a ball or strike assessed) if they take too long getting play underway.

and pitchers are restricted from repeatedly "throwing to first" (to hold a runner on) - after two throws over, the pitcher must deliver to the plate.

the overall goal was to "speed up the game", resulting in "shorter" games (and ot DID work - games ARE "shorter")

but to keep the games "shorter", the extra innings format was drastically changed, with a runner being "placed" on second base in each half inning of extra play (to make sure someone scores and the game doesn't drag on for 17 mostly scoreless extra innings).

the alternative (which i favored) would be to "incentivize" pitchers and hitters to put the ball in play earlier (it used to be said of brandon belt that "his at-bat didn't really begin until he got to three and two").

the incentives could have been quite simple.

you create a system whereby pitchers WANT to "come in with the pitch" (throwing strikes) rather than "nibbling at the corners" until you HAVE to deliver a "hittable" pitch

so, you change the "rules"

for hitters:

"if a hitter shall reach base with no strikes in the count (swinging early), he shall be awarded an extra base" (and if that causes other baserunners to be advanced, so be it).

for pitchers:

you use the "immaculate inning" statistic but make it WORTH something.

you initiate a "rule", some version of, "if a pitcher shall throw an 'immaculate inning', his team shall begin the next half inning with two runs on the scoreboard" (pitchers can no longer "drive in" runs *because they no longer "hit", but they CAN use their pitching excellence to score runs for their team).

you probably give a pitcher's team two runs for a standard immaculate inning. but you ALSO add a rule that says, "if a number of pitchers, over the course of two innings, shall retire any three consecutive batters on nine pitches with no ball put in play, (which would be known as an "immaculate outing"}, their team has one run already on the board to start the next half inning"

now you have an incentive based system. pitchers are continually incentivized to throw strikes from the get-go (in order to put a run or two on the board for their team) AND you have hitters LOOKING to put the first pitch in play to both remove the possibility of an "immaculate inning or outing" (runs scored AGAINST their team) AND to get into scoring position on a single (second base awarded if you reach first with no strikes in the count), or put yourself on third with a first pitch double (and the extra base)

sure it's complicated. but imagine taking your kid to a game. under current rules, how the hell is dad going to explain to sonny-boy HOW that guy starts the tenth inning (and every half inning thereafter) on second base. did he get a hit while no one was watching? WHAT? - he didn't EARN his way on base?

whereas with an incentive based system, the hitter or pitcher EARN runs or extra bases for their team by their performance.

either way, it's going to mean "learning new and sometimes complicated rules", but under an incentive based system, you don't have umpires calling a ball or strike BECAUSE "nothing happened" (in a specified time frame) - instead, pitchers have a reason to throw strikes early and often and hitters have the incentive to swing early in the count. so, shorter games.

but the commissioner was interested in shortening "the time between pitches" (using penalties and restrictions), rather than reducing the NUMBER of (overall) pitches in a game (shortening the game that way).

and in an incentivized system, starters stay in the game longer (do you REALLY want to see logan webb removed after five shutout innings because he is approaching a hundred pitches?)

so, this was a brief diversion into "baseball rule changes" and the value of an "incentive based system" versus a "penalty based system"
I understand your point on motivation. I just think it is impossible to structure motivation to act in the short term manner you desire when the long term benefit is so great. Either an incentive or penalty based system seeks to address motivation.

The alternative approach is to remove ability to impact so motivation and therefore behavior is irrelevant.
 
I understand your point on motivation. I just think it is impossible to structure motivation to act in the short term manner you desire when the long term benefit is so great. Either an incentive or penalty based system seeks to address motivation.

The alternative approach is to remove ability to impact so motivation and therefore behavior is irrelevant.

and. there is a brawl just before halftime in washington.... 3 thunder players ejected (only one for wizards)- unfortunately, none had the initials SGA

go wizards (down 5 at half)
 
If we don’t win the lottery this will be the most embarrassing season in team history.

When we don't win the lottery. And it's an embarrassing season either way but what else is new?

I will say this: every time there's a draft as lauded for its depth as this one, there's always a few players picked out of the top 5 that end up going top 5 in a redraft. We just need our FO to do their homework and we can get a great player wherever we end up in the top 10.

These late season wins are a lot less frustrating when you give up on AJ, who we very likely weren't going to get with best lotto odds anyways. Our team is still hot garbage, our odds won't shift too much between now and the merciful end of the season.
 
When we don't win the lottery. And it's an embarrassing season either way but what else is new?

I will say this: every time there's a draft as lauded for its depth as this one, there's always a few players picked out of the top 5 that end up going top 5 in a redraft. We just need our FO to do their homework and we can get a great player wherever we end up in the top 10.

These late season wins are a lot less frustrating when you give up on AJ, who we very likely weren't going to get with best lotto odds anyways. Our team is still hot garbage, our odds won't shift too much between now and the merciful end of the season.
I agree, just seems very guard heavy between 5 and 10, the area we’re likely to pick if not in the top four.
Not sure thats the best way to go unless there’s a real difference maker and we move on from current players.
 
Honestly at this point let’s just get Acuff (since our chances of top 3 is decreasing by the day). We are going to have to put good defenders around him but he is basically a taller Iverson to me (Iverson made it to the finals once)
 
When we don't win the lottery. And it's an embarrassing season either way but what else is new?

I will say this: every time there's a draft as lauded for its depth as this one, there's always a few players picked out of the top 5 that end up going top 5 in a redraft. We just need our FO to do their homework and we can get a great player wherever we end up in the top 10.

These late season wins are a lot less frustrating when you give up on AJ, who we very likely weren't going to get with best lotto odds anyways. Our team is still hot garbage, our odds won't shift too much between now and the merciful end of the season.
This is some serious next level justification for remaining a fan of the dumbest team in history. It’s like being swindled out of 100K and handing over another 50k.

Congrats. I just can’t do it anymore.
 
This is some serious next level justification for remaining a fan of the dumbest team in history. It’s like being swindled out of 100K and handing over another 50k.

Congrats. I just can’t do it anymore.

Totally fair.

My interest this season has gone from complete apathy to tepid with the emergence of Max as a potential keeper, but in the back of my head I know it's all futile with Vivek as owner.

Still hoping for lotto luck, because why not, and if we land a blue chipper in the draft I'll catch more games next season but I'm never going to have expectations of us being competitive until Vivek sells or kicks the bucket.

It makes being a fan easier to barely care haha
 
Zubac out for the rest of the season with a a rib injury. I know they already saw their best player blow out his Achilles in game 7 of the finals but I hope the basketball gods punish the Pacers for quite possibly the most blatant disregard for winning since the Hinkie Sixers.
They have most likely accurately calculated that if they can get a top 5 pick in this draft, they will be back in the drivers seat next season to make a run. Whether it is with a young player that fits with their core, or trading to get what they need
 
Totally fair.

My interest this season has gone from complete apathy to tepid with the emergence of Max as a potential keeper, but in the back of my head I know it's all futile with Vivek as owner.

Still hoping for lotto luck, because why not, and if we land a blue chipper in the draft I'll catch more games next season but I'm never going to have expectations of us being competitive until Vivek sells or kicks the bucket.

It makes being a fan easier to barely care haha
If you can just hold on till his daughter takes the helm
 
Totally fair.

My interest this season has gone from complete apathy to tepid with the emergence of Max as a potential keeper, but in the back of my head I know it's all futile with Vivek as owner.

Still hoping for lotto luck, because why not, and if we land a blue chipper in the draft I'll catch more games next season but I'm never going to have expectations of us being competitive until Vivek sells or kicks the bucket.

It makes being a fan easier to barely care haha
Yeah if for some reason we end up with a top 3 peak I will probably come back and convince myself Perry is playing some 4D chess.

But absent that I’m probably buying MAC season tickets for football. In terms of pro basketball I will probably be done until Vivek sells the team.
 
Honestly at this point let’s just get Acuff (since our chances of top 3 is decreasing by the day). We are going to have to put good defenders around him but he is basically a taller Iverson to me (Iverson made it to the finals once)
Probably nobody raising their draft stock more during this tournament than Acuff. So yeah, might be that difference maker. Might even be the best guard choice out there.
I want to see that trade for Kuminga thread opened back up anyway
 
They have most likely accurately calculated that if they can get a top 5 pick in this draft, they will be back in the drivers seat next season to make a run. Whether it is with a young player that fits with their core, or trading to get what they need

Except for the fact that Indiana's pick is top 4 protected and NOT top 5 protected for this year's draft. So. if the Pacers don't win the lottery, they just gave up the #5 pick in a loaded draft for the 29 year old injured Zubac.
 
Kangz damaging their draft odds more with another poor win. Forfeiture ought to be allowed once eliminated.......save money and injuries
 
I know we're all looking for a silver lining but just remember that the Kings are beating teams that are tanking hard. Mann and Zaire were the best players on the Nets roster last night and Jordi didn't even have them in at the end of the game. Once Wolf got hurt, they didn't even have a PF sized player left and even with all that and Monk on a serious heater, the Kings still barely won.

The Kings just flat out suck and are being outsmarted by other teams in the league that suck as well.
 
I know we're all looking for a silver lining but just remember that the Kings are beating teams that are tanking hard. Mann and Zaire were the best players on the Nets roster last night and Jordi didn't even have them in at the end of the game. Once Wolf got hurt, they didn't even have a PF sized player left and even with all that and Monk on a serious heater, the Kings still barely won.

The Kings just flat out suck and are being outsmarted by other teams in the league that suck as well.

Ill give a little pass last game since Nique got hurt and Plowden was out. But yeah
 
I know we're all looking for a silver lining but just remember that the Kings are beating teams that are tanking hard. Mann and Zaire were the best players on the Nets roster last night and Jordi didn't even have them in at the end of the game. Once Wolf got hurt, they didn't even have a PF sized player left and even with all that and Monk on a serious heater, the Kings still barely won.

The Kings just flat out suck and are being outsmarted by other teams in the league that suck as well.

Being outsmarted is really what it comes down to. A new coach desperate to make it to year two and an impatient owner who values the 10th seed in the play in more than the 1st overall pick is a toxic combination for a dead end team like us. Such a shame.
 
Ill give a little pass last game since Nique got hurt and Plowden was out. But yeah
Nique and Killian both got hurt. By the end of the game Malik and Devin were our only guards and both guys had to play like 15 minutes straight coming off of an injury because Deebo was literally the only other guy left who could conceivably eat guard minutes
 
So do we want Kingston, Acuff or Ament? What's the consensus?
We shouldn't forget that Philon and Wagler need to be in that list as well.

I'm definitely Acuff over Flemings.

Ament is going to get somebody fired - the question is whether it's going to be the guy that drafted him or the guy that passed on him.
 
So do we want Kingston, Acuff or Ament? What's the consensus?
The way this tournament is playing out it’s Acuff for me, but i’m now reading he might be playing himself into a top five pick.. guess we’ll see.
As far as the last two Brooklyn games go both games they got far fewer trips to the line, especially against the Knicks which was a one point loss. These refs are screwing our tank as much as anyone.
 
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