twslam07
All-Star
Common ground! Smart is actually my backup PG target behind Holiday.
As for the trade itself, I have a hard time seeing MIA surrender a first for DeRozan. I think DeRozan’s value will be in the 2-3 2nds range. We’ll see though.
Potential Free Agent/Trade/Sign Tracker, '25-'26 Season
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Common ground! Smart is actually my backup PG target behind Holiday.
As for the trade itself, I have a hard time seeing MIA surrender a first for DeRozan. I think DeRozan’s value will be in the 2-3 2nds range. We’ll see though.
Jae Crowder and Royce O'Neale went for more than that.
I get we're used to being the "little brother" of the NBA, but DDR is pretty dang good. He's going to bring value back
It's probably less people thinking he sucks and more just them thinking that he's the only player on the team with real trade value that could get a rebuild started off right.
A little of that mixed in with the reality of how difficult it is to build a defense around him. He basically needs to play next to Chet Holmgren and unfortunately there's only one Chet Holmgren on the planet.
Kings just don't have the draft capital or trade capital to really do anything other than tread water. There aren't enough good, redundant players on the team that can be traded away. We have a glut of SGs but LaVine is nearly untradeable, Monk is our only ball handler, Keon is our second highest impact player and Carter's trade value isn't going to net the Kings the level of player they need to take a step forward.
I think some people just see dealing Sabonis as the best way to not land in Boogie Cousins 10th seed purgatory.
QWERTYLICIOUS
Starter
I'd consider this one.
QWERTYLICIOUS
Starter
If this were the one, I'd jump all over it.
But, yeah...As you said, ain't gonna happen, but it's nice to dream big, LOL!!!
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Maybe but this draft is pretty meh when you get to 20 unless someone drops. Even if the Kings got multiple 2nds in the future that might actually be even better to be honest.
Greg Monroe wouldnt net the trade package i was suggesting.
The value of a player is defined by his contract, too, as we have a cap situation going on in the nba.
After Doug took over, Domas had multiple games where he took less than 10 shots.
You are paying a guy who is a traffic cone on Defense, kills your teams ability to rim protect, and doesnt even take 10 shots on many games nearly 50 million.
Thats why he needs to go now, because a trade demand lowers his value, even if it wont be significantly lower.
Get the best you can for him, now.
And no, nobody is going to give us 3 unprotected picks for him. Like ESP said, there is only OKC and the Spurs that could hide him defensively, and both teams are too smart to give us 3 valuable picks.
Plus: Thinking that someone is giving us a first for a 36 year old that dont play no defense and can only participate in iso offense is delusional
twslam07
All-Star
In my post you quoted, I clearly mentioned the value that he would bring back so I’m confused by that statement. It seems like you’re under the impression that I think his value is neutral or negative. That’s not the case.
We have to keep in mind that DeRozan will be 36 at the start of next year and his play style is difficult to build around. IMO, he’s not a good enough scorer and playmaker to be one of your top guys, and he’s not a good enough defender or shooter to warrant starting next to your top guys. He should be coming off the bench at this point of his career if he wants to be a part of a top tier team, but he reportedly scoffed at the idea of coming off the bench when Mike Brown approached him.
Yes, he’s a good player but the style of his game combined with his hesitancy to come off the bench combined with his age drives his value down. Guys like Crowder (he was traded before hitting his cliff) and O’Neale were 4-6 years younger when traded and you could at least pencil them in as 3&D wings/forward that you could start next to your top guys. DeRozan? Not so much.
But we’ll see what we get for him. I would be ecstatic if we can get a 1st for him without having to take on a negative contract to do it.
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Exactly. As long as he’s the center, the defense is limited which leads to play-in status for the team.
The only way to make it work with Domas is to look at Houston’s roster construction. Sengun and Domas are comparable at this point and Houston has a boat load of defensive players around Sengun. Need to find an Amen and Jabari Smith type to go with Keegan and Keon. Good luck with that
twslam07
All-Star
Still no rim protection, which still limits us to a play in team.Holiday, Ellis, Carter, Murray, & Washington is definitely a lot of defense around him
The rockets did play well when
A) Adams was on the court with Sengun, which means there was rim protection or
B) when they played their "special zone" in which sengun had to run his ass off and show off his defensive iq, cut off passing lanes and so on
So either we find our Adams, or try B), which i wouldnt trust in as Domas' defensive IQ is not as high
look at this https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/B4HID4jlN0
I have never seen Domas this active, agile and efficient on defense
twslam07
All-Star
I reject the premise that we're capped as a play-in team with Sabonis as our C.
We have examples of Cs that are similar to Sabonis defensively who are on teams that are not only passable on defense, but actually good on defense. It comes down to what players you put around him.
Now I'm not saying Sabonis is the easiest person to build around. He's not, but it's doable.
I get what you are saying and while Domas is a unique offensive talent and it might he worth a try, we already tried.
He has no length because of his lacking wingspan and cannot rim protect against either good offensive centers or slashing guards/wings.
The warriors exploited this excellently, and every team we will meet in any kind of playoff scenario will do, too.
I agree with the sentiment that he will work, and is one of the most valuable players if surrounded with the right players, the problem is, there are only two or three of these right players, and none of them is realistically gettable (e.g. Wemby, Chet etc.)
Without these guys on the same team no Domas team will ever be a team that regurlarly goes deep into the playoffs. Not in todays NBA.
Dont get me wrong, i like the idea of getting domas to work here, i just dont see a way for that.
OKC does not dominate because of their offense, but because of their defense, because they always have good rim protection on the floor not only elite guard/wing defense.
Boston had elite guard/wing defense, but their inside defense didnt work well, and out they were...
Domas' value isn't in being the shooting focus of the team. He has averaged a whole 12.6 FGA per game since he has been a King, which makes a game of fewer than 10 shots a normal part of the distribution.
People get caught up on Domas not being a rim protector or averaging only 19 points per game instead being in the coveted 20s and overlook his ridiculously good rebounding and his efficiency and his ability to orchestrate the team on offense and completely ignore that when looking at the advanced stats, his time in Sac has been the best three+ season stretch put up by any player in Sac, ever. Better than Mitch. Better than Cousins. Even better than Webber. They just completely ignore it and want to trade him away for one protected pick, I can't even fathom it.
Stats, even the advanced stats, dont always tell the truth. Never rely on them, rely on watching games.
His ridiculously good rebounding vanished, when it was most needed, and Kevon effing Looney outrebounded him.
His orchestrating, when it was most needed, vanished against the Wolves, when he had 2 assists.
In every game that really counts, our opponent outplays us because of a weakness created by him. It happened twice now.
What is unfathoamable is, that even after failing always, never really succeeding, the "fans" are not seeing his weaknesses on the court, and point to stats.
Watch him play and you will watch him get outplayed, always when we need him the most.
He is not the main offensive orchestrator, which is why almost everyone agrees that we need a real PG. He never will be the main offensive orchestrator on a championship contender.
He is not the number one scoring option, i think most of us agree here, too. And he never will be the number one scoring option on a good team.
He is one of the best rebounders, i'll give him that.
Is that someone worth almost 45/50 mio? He hogs so much of our cap, while not providing equal value, that is why we will not be able to put together a team that will be able to go deep in the playoffs, as long as he is here, with that contract.
Like i said, he is a good player, and has a place in the NBA. There are some teams that can mask his weaknesses, but we arent one of them, not with this cost structure, and not with his contract.
And yeah, we get caught up on him not being a rim protector, because thats the key skill that we need from him to get better. He just doesnt have it. Even teams like Boston get eliminated in the Playoffs, when their inside D is bad. Can you tell me who is in the finals, and who their bigs are, and what their bigs are known for?
His ridiculously good rebounding vanished, when it was most needed, and Kevon effing Looney outrebounded him.
His orchestrating, when it was most needed, vanished against the Wolves, when he had 2 assists.
In every game that really counts, our opponent outplays us because of a weakness created by him. It happened twice now.
What is unfathoamable is, that even after failing always, never really succeeding, the "fans" are not seeing his weaknesses on the court, and point to stats.
Watch him play and you will watch him get outplayed, always when we need him the most.
He is not the main offensive orchestrator, which is why almost everyone agrees that we need a real PG. He never will be the main offensive orchestrator on a championship contender.
He is not the number one scoring option, i think most of us agree here, too. And he never will be the number one scoring option on a good team.
He is one of the best rebounders, i'll give him that.
Is that someone worth almost 45/50 mio? He hogs so much of our cap, while not providing equal value, that is why we will not be able to put together a team that will be able to go deep in the playoffs, as long as he is here, with that contract.
Like i said, he is a good player, and has a place in the NBA. There are some teams that can mask his weaknesses, but we arent one of them, not with this cost structure, and not with his contract.
And yeah, we get caught up on him not being a rim protector, because thats the key skill that we need from him to get better. He just doesnt have it. Even teams like Boston get eliminated in the Playoffs, when their inside D is bad. Can you tell me who is in the finals, and who their bigs are, and what their bigs are known for?
twslam07
All-Star
We already tried putting a good defense around Sabonis? I highly disagree with that.
- The first full season Sabonis was here, we had Huerter, Barnes, and a rookie Murray around him, and we had guys like Monk, Lyles, Davis, & Metu coming off the bench. The only good defenders we had were probably Mitchell & Fox (when he wanted to try). Definitely not enough defense IMO and the stats back that up. We we're 24th in defense that year
- The second season, we still had Huerter & Barnes starting around him, but Murray took a significant leap defensively. We still had guys like Monk & Lyles getting substantial minutes off the bench. We also had the emergence of Ellis later in the year, but he didn't log a ton of minutes for us last year. We still had Mitchell and Fox defensively as well. Still way too many glaring defensive holes for my liking considering Sabonis is at C, but we were also 14th in defense that year and trending in a good direction (e.g., replace Huerter with a 3&D player and upgrade Barnes for a bigger/longer defensive forward).
- Unfortunately in season 3, we decided to not continue trending in that good direction and made the decision to acquire DeRozan. So now we had Huerter & DeRozan surrounding Sabonis with guys like Monk & Lyles still getting big minutes. Mitchell was sent out too, but we at least had Ellis there to get a lot more minutes. Then we traded Fox & Huerter for LaVine and decided to roll with a Monk, LaVine, DeRozan, Murray, & Sabonis starting lineup. Again, not even close to the ideal defensive makeup you want to put around Sabonis and it resulted in us being the 22nd best defense.
Again, we have not surrounded Sabonis with the defenders necessary to maximize his skillset.
Also, why would a team that has Murray and Washington at SF and PF have no rim protection? They both average a block or a little over a block per 36 min. They're not Wemby out there, but they do consistently challenge shots at the rim and can provide weakside rim protection. Both of them have a lot of length and athleticism to do so...
Keegan Murray (using Kris' measurements since Keegan didn't get measured at the combine)
Wingspan = 6'11.75"
Standing Reach = 8'10"
Weight = 212.8 lbs (I think we can all agree that Keegan looks much bigger than his brother too)
PJ Washington
Wingspan = 7'2.25"
Standing Reach = 8'10.5"
Weight = 230.4 lbs
And if you have good guard defenders (Holiday, Ellis, & Carter) that can be your POA defender, that means Murray is not having to play that role on defense anymore which puts him in more positions to rotate and be a weakside shot blocker.
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Bingo. And we did everything to build around Fox and maximizing him, not Domas. Weirdly, I think the post-deadline Kings had the most defensive potential our team has had with Keon/Keegan/LaRavia/Carter as quality defensive options.
I think this team could be very good with LaVine/Domas/Monk as the hubs, Monk runs the bench unit and everyone else is just a ++ defender/shooter. Title contender? No, but I think that's a core that could win a playoff series. Probably about as much we can hope for with Vivek refusing to rebuild
They are not high level rim protectors in the sense that they can keep the backs of domas AND lavine (who we will have to keep probably) clean.
My main point is: Domas is not a player to build around, he is a good 2nd or 3rd player, and for that he earns too much - hogs too much of the cap and cripples the teams ability to build around him.
But IF we want to keep Domas, we have to build around, we should try to get Kessler. Not sure how realistic he is, and what we would have to give up, but he is the only semi gettable player, that could work behind Domas.
Best way in my mind is keep LaVine, he is easier to hide on defense, and try to get a player whose value might go up with more minutes, aka Sharpe, Mathurin etc.
Thats long term thinking though, not sure Perry will be allowed to think long term
Gut feeling, where would you rank Domas in terms of a power ranking in the NBA? Like top 20, 30, 40, etc?
Gut feeling? Without looking at any list of players. Somewhere around 40 and 50.
I would put him higher if i only saw his stats, but i saw him play. I saw him play un crucial games. He is one of those players that show that you can't trust stats.
He is hard to assess as a player, because his stats say he is great. Teams try, don't make it, then trade him.
Indiana made the right decision after trying season after season. Now its our time to make the right decision...
I would put him higher if i only saw his stats, but i saw him play. I saw him play un crucial games. He is one of those players that show that you can't trust stats.
He is hard to assess as a player, because his stats say he is great. Teams try, don't make it, then trade him.
Indiana made the right decision after trying season after season. Now its our time to make the right decision...
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twslam07
All-Star
But hold on here…you made the claim that we have already tried to build a good defense around Sabonis. Are you backing off that claim now?
Who said they’re “high level” rim protectors? They are big, long, athletic forwards who are known for being good at contesting shots at the rim and helping with weakside rim protection. You still need strong POA defense (which we’d have with Holiday, Ellis, & Carter) to limit penetration but you’d have a few different options on the floor to help with rim protection (which is the best you can for without having some sort of unicorn archetype at PF).
Definite no to Walker Kessler. He has no outside offensive game. We need to add players who both 1.) keep the floor spaced and 2.) bring length & defense. If you want to maximize a team with Sabonis on it, you can’t sacrifice one for the other.
Look I’m not claiming Sabonis can be the best player on a highly successful team, but he also is a player that needs a certain roster construction to maximize him. That’s not the easiest player to build around. Absolutely, but just because someone is more difficult to build around it does not mean you can’t win with such a player.
QWERTYLICIOUS
Starter
That's the whole point, he earns as much as a best player though and since we need the special roster that you are talking about, and we have a cap in the nba, the reality that he blocks a big part of the cap hinders us in getting the players we would need to make him work.
To the trolls:
Even after you posted the bad advanced stats on barrett, i did say that he would be good for us. You know why: Cause i watched him play.
twslam07
All-Star
Wait…you still didn’t answer my question…are you backing off the claim that we have tried to build a good defense around Sabonis?
i never said that we tried to put a good defense around him.
i answered your last sentence of the post i quoted, and defense wasnt mentioned there. I meant that we tried to put together a team around him, that works.
This back and forth with Sabonis is always interesting. Don’t really think we can get the correct pieces in place around him…….would take successfully executed deals with Deebo and maybe Monk. Need a PG but I don’t think Jru is the guy anymore. Younger Jru? Hell yes. I think I’d rather just give Carter a full shot at PG with Monk off the bench. Carter and Keon and Keegan hubs on D with Domas and Lavine with them. In the meantime, finding full length wings.
I personally don’t think we can get into the top 6 seeds with Domas. I do think we surprised teams a few years back but now with Fox gone, the correct move would be to retool. Domas is a great trade chip. Retool this team.
I personally don’t think we can get into the top 6 seeds with Domas. I do think we surprised teams a few years back but now with Fox gone, the correct move would be to retool. Domas is a great trade chip. Retool this team.
twslam07
All-Star
What makes you think that?
What? Because every team tries to put together a team that works?
Maybe not the tanking ones, at least for the current seasons, but at no point we were tanking, so....
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
So we don’t have to package him with an unprotected first and literally all of our second round picks to get a protected first back?
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