This has happened when?
Poll: Wall or Turner ?
- Thread starter Prince_XY
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This has happened when?
Sarunas
G-League
I agree with this. I take John Wall. We were the 3rd worst team in the NBA this season. I don't think we need to focus on who will help us RIGHT NOW. Realistically, are we going to be a playoff contender right now? No. We are building this team to make a long standing playoff run 2-3 years from now for many years. With that said, I think you have to take the best player available. I can't rationalize passing on arguably the best PG talent since Kidd, especially when we had the 3rd worst record, and PG is actually somewhat of a need for us (not a huge need, but a need nonetheless). Would I love Turner? Absolutely, but I think with the #1 pick, you have to take the BPA, which in my opinion is Wall. I believe Reke will be able to play off the ball a bit more once he develops a J. Same goes for Wall. I think Wall is much more of a playmaker/leader than people give him credit for.
I agree with others though, I kind of hope we get the #2 or #3 pick so we dont have to make that decision and then look back and potentially have to wonder "what if". I would be ecstatic with Wall, Turner, Favors or Cousins. I think all of them can help our team now, and especially 2-3 years form now when we should be pushing into the playoff picture.
Chupacabra
Starter
Last night I had another Kings nightmare that we got #6 pick. Not the 47% chance of landing 1-3 but the worst of 53% chance of drawing 4-6
lol Youre worrying about it too much. Its only a 4% chance of getting #6. Thats a 1 in 25 shot. We are at a 70% chance of picking in the top 4. Thats a great statistic. Ill be happy with whoever we get in the top 4. Of course i have my preference to who id like in the top 4. Between Wall and Turner id rather have Turner. This isnt going to be the best analogy, picking Wall would be kinda like the Celtics drafting Derrick Rose. Rose is a great talent, but Rondo is clearly the leader and main ballhandler/playmaker on that team. We wouldnt be getting the most out of either Tyreke or Wall if we acquire Wall.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Here's analysis from a few guys on Cousins. I have watched Cousins play a fair amount and really don't see how you don't think he plays defense and can be intimidating in the lane. I would agree, fundamentaly, he has to improve, as do all young players. But he blocks shots. He alters shots. He bangs in the low post. He's physical. He boxes out. He sets tough screens. This is all stuff I have seen from watching him play. I would say he's the best defender to come into the league since Oden, and he and Oden are the best big man defenders to come into the league in years.
You keep saying Cousins can't help a team if he's suspended for fighting or gets ejected. You really think his attitude is so bad that he can't even stay on the court? That is a huge assumption to make.
From nbadraft.net
Defensively he can block shots from the weak side as well as on the ball due to his length, and dominate the boards at the college level, while eating up more space than anyone on the court... He's a defensive presence even if he just stands there with his hands up protecting the rim .
Jonathan Givony-DX
Defensively, Cousins is mostly a mixed bag at this point. On one hand he provides an incredible presence in the post with his terrific size, length and bulk, often not needing to do much more than just stand in the paint with his arms outstretched in order to help his team come up with a stop. He’s pretty physical on top of that and appears to be putting in a solid effort in for the most part, making it extremely difficult for opposing big men to get shots off over the top of him, and coming up with a solid 3.4 blocks per-40 minutes pace adjusted in turn.
Brian Levy-NBA scout/consulant
There might not be a more efficient scorer and rebounder in the country than Demarcus Cousins. In just over 23 minutes per game, Cousins managed to put up 15ppg & 10rpg. His Per 40 Minute averages come out to about 27ppg and 17rpg. Even more impressive is his 1.56pps. That’s Points Per Shot, meaning Cousins is taking, but more importantly, making, high percentage shots, so much so that almost every time he shoots the ball, you’re getting more than a point and a half. A lot of these numbers are due to Cousins’ rare combination of abilities. He has nimble feet, soft hands, maintains good body control and tops it all off with a mean streak that’s not usually found in someone so technically skilled. Cousins uses that mean streak defensively, too. He takes pride in contesting each and every shot, blocking 1.8 shots each game, and altering even more. The only on-court improvements he’s going to have to make are increasing the range on his jump shot out to 15-18feet and becoming more consistent from the free throw line. Otherwise, physically, he is the full package, a pure back to the basket scorer and dominant rebounder that wants to play defense.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I'm not quite sure how to put this. I spent the better part of my winter watching college basketball. I decided to actually keep track of how many times I watched each team. Maybe for my own personal credibility if nothing else. I watched Kentucky play 24 times. That means I watched Cousins play 24 times. I've been watching basketball for over 50 years. I like to believe that I have at least a small idea of how the game is played, and who knows how to play it..
Now if you want to make a big issue out of Cousins past problems, then I suggest you do some research about whats true and what isn't. I just posted another inciteful article about him today. And if you decide you just want to dislike him for whatever reason, thats your choice.. But please don't post ignorant statements that have no merit. I already stated that I doubt Cousins will ever be an elite shotblocker. But the guy is a very good man on man defender. If you don't think so. Then you've never seen him play. He has outstanding footwork in the post, and very quick feet. He has an outstanding spin move in the post. He has a variety of post moves. He's extremely strong, and has very soft hands. He catches everything that comes his way. He's an excellent passer and an above average ballhandler for a player his size.
Now to paint a picture of him as nothing but a big slow thug thats unathletic is just ridiculous. Cousins is just as athletic if not more athletic than Kaman, Marc Gasol, Bargnani, Haywood, Etc. And please spare me he's not as athletic as Dwight Howard. Who the hell is? I mean who the hell are you comparing him to. The league isn't loaded with Wilt Chamberlins right now. It might take him a couple of years. But I predict that he'll be one of the top five centers in the NBA.
Now if you want to make a big issue out of Cousins past problems, then I suggest you do some research about whats true and what isn't. I just posted another inciteful article about him today. And if you decide you just want to dislike him for whatever reason, thats your choice.. But please don't post ignorant statements that have no merit. I already stated that I doubt Cousins will ever be an elite shotblocker. But the guy is a very good man on man defender. If you don't think so. Then you've never seen him play. He has outstanding footwork in the post, and very quick feet. He has an outstanding spin move in the post. He has a variety of post moves. He's extremely strong, and has very soft hands. He catches everything that comes his way. He's an excellent passer and an above average ballhandler for a player his size.
Now to paint a picture of him as nothing but a big slow thug thats unathletic is just ridiculous. Cousins is just as athletic if not more athletic than Kaman, Marc Gasol, Bargnani, Haywood, Etc. And please spare me he's not as athletic as Dwight Howard. Who the hell is? I mean who the hell are you comparing him to. The league isn't loaded with Wilt Chamberlins right now. It might take him a couple of years. But I predict that he'll be one of the top five centers in the NBA.
PurpleHaze
All-Star
Baja - I agree on Cousins as a potential elite NBA center. Surely he's only one in this years draft with that "potential." I mean compared to Hassan Whiteside
The so-called Cousins "attitude" issue is really only "minor" flaw I see in him becoming the next Andrew Bogot - so to speak. Bogot was a #1 overall pick and took 3-4 years to find his way in the NBA. This season he really blossomed making all-NBA third team - a helluva accomplishment after many branded him a bust following his first couple seasons.
As you said, there are no "Wilt's" in the NBA anymore or any centers on the horizon even remotely close to such complete domination. Cousins just being Cousins should be plenty good enough for the Kings if they land him to suppliment their weak (but hopefully maturing) front line.
The so-called Cousins "attitude" issue is really only "minor" flaw I see in him becoming the next Andrew Bogot - so to speak. Bogot was a #1 overall pick and took 3-4 years to find his way in the NBA. This season he really blossomed making all-NBA third team - a helluva accomplishment after many branded him a bust following his first couple seasons. As you said, there are no "Wilt's" in the NBA anymore or any centers on the horizon even remotely close to such complete domination. Cousins just being Cousins should be plenty good enough for the Kings if they land him to suppliment their weak (but hopefully maturing) front line.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Baja - I agree on Cousins as a potential elite NBA center. Surely he's only one in this years draft with that "potential." I mean compared to Hassan Whiteside
As you said, there are no "Wilt's" in the NBA anymore or any centers on the horizon even remotely close to such complete domination. Cousins just being Cousins should be plenty good enough for the Kings if they land him to suppliment their weak (but hopefully maturing) front line.
I think Cousins can be every bit as good as Bogot. And lest we forget, Bogot was 21 years old when he was drafted. Plus I think Cousins will be a better rebounder than Bogot from the get go. Its all speculation, and could be moot if we don't get lucky in the lottery. Lets hope the basketball god's smile upon us...
LPKingsFan
All-Star
This was my reaction too. Seriously?
Talk about ratcheting up the rhetoric a bit too far, here.
This was my reaction too. Seriously?
Yeah, I think that suspension for a year without pay (Artest, Sprewell, etc.) is about as much as they usually hand out. After that, you only have to worry about being treated like dirt by NBA refs for life.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Ok, if we want to put a period on it:
Players who get untowardly physical get removed from the league for an indeterminate period of time depending on the whim of our Commissioner, the mood of our time, and other various and sundry factors.
I think most would agree that the league has developed less tolerance for physical play over the years. Rule changes, suspensions evidence that fact. Twenty to thirty years ago "the enforcer" type had more value than today, simply because they could get away with a lot more. Would Lambier or Maurice Lucas be as valuable today as in their day? I doubt it. Simply because they couldn't use their "tools" to the same degree. In a league that is extremely conscious of limiting physical play because of the fear of it getting out of hand, how much additional value does that assign to the intimidation factor of Cousins (assuming Brick's definition of "big with a temper holds")? Not much imo.
Dime Dropper
All-Star
Why do you ignore his other qualities? His post game, his excellent footwork, his elite rebounding, his strength, his defense, his length, his passing, his ability to run the floor for a guy his size, etc.? Are you just convinced that his attitude will get out of hand or do you not believe him to have the above skills that I listed?
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Dime Dropper,
I'm not ignoring his other qualities. This discussion centered "just" around how valuable or not his "intimidation" factor. That's it. It was never intended to be a comprehensive discussion of his pros and cons. I've discussed those on several posts.
You know how these things go. You discuss a point on a player. You're negative about that point. All other pros are not discussed. Voila. You're entirely negative on the player.
I agree that he does has very good footwork offensively, has good length, good bulk, and is a good rebounder (though I don't think he'll shine in the area in NBA). I've said as much on several posts. I just don't think he should be in the top three, and have my doubts (not conviction) about the top 5. Frankly, it doesn't seem a great draft, so that's why I don't have a great deal of conviction when it comes to the four and five slot. I just hope that this whole discussion is moot because the Kings end up with #1 or #2 (I'm assuming the Kings would take Wall or Turner if that were the case).
hammystyle
Starter
Kendrick Perkins is just a big, nice, sweet softie in the middle. He smiles all the time and never does nothing to no one. All the opposing players love playing against him because they know sweet Kendrick plays a good clean game and would never think of using his size or strength in a harmful way.
Well, let's see just how much "physical play" deterrence there has been lately. I went back through thanks to Patricia Bender's awesome site and looked over the past five years, counting up all suspension days that were due to on-court physical play. I excluded the following as not being examples of physical play: Brawls or other fights where the suspension clearly stemmed from post-play fisticuffs, gestures/contact with referees/fans, going into the stands, leaving the bench during a fight, violation of league policy (drug, referee criticism, or otherwise), team suspensions, suspensions based on criminal convictions. A few incidents were unclear as to whether the punches that were thrown were during play or after, so I included those incidents. Here are the total suspension days for the past five years:
'05-'06: 16
'06-'07: 10
'07-'08: 16
'08-'09: 12
'09-'10: 4
Only one single suspension was for three days. Ten suspensions were for two days (five of those in '05-'06), and the remainder were one-game suspensions. There was a grand total of one suspension (Kenyon Martin, one game) for accumulated flagrant fouls as opposed to single incidents.
So when you say "indeterminate period of time" you really mean two games or less. And there have been a total of 46 such incidents that have garnered a suspension over the last 5 years, or about 9 incidents per year. With about 1300 games per year counting the playoffs, that's about one suspension per 145 games or so. I would not call that a policy with a lot of teeth.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
"While I think both Wall and Turner can help this team, and are better players than Cousins, I could see some of us wishing we had Cousins if he ends up somewhere else, and other teams continue their uncontested marches to the basket. IMO, Cousins would change the attitude of our frontline immediatly, would be intimidating, much more physical, and give us an immediate low post presence both offensively and defensively. I just don't see Wall or Turner having the same impact on this team, eventhough they might be more talented."
This was my post which you responded to, and you responded solely about his intimidation factor being overrated. I think you took my original post out of context, or were trolling for a reason to knock Cousins. You are the one who focused on how valuable his intimidation factor was. It was originally a discussion about Cousins pros and cons.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
It cracks me up that everyone wants Hawes to become more physical. Thompson isn't tough enough. We need an imtimidating man in the middle. And now that there just might be what were looking for, were told that physcial play isn't allowed anymore in the NBA. What a bunch of bullcrap. Just ask Howard how physical the play is under his basket. Are you telling me that Bynum isn't intimidating standing there under the basket.
There's a big difference between physical play and punching out another player. Yes, if the ref's think its getting a little too physical in the game they tend to get a little quick with the whistle. But don't tell me that there isn't any physical play. Back when I started watching basketball in the stone ages, the game wasn't nearly as physical as it is now. Basketball is just like any other sport. The players in general are bigger and faster overall. Just like football. Their still playing the game the same way, but now the linebackers are 250 pounds instead of 210 pound and they run the 40 in a faster time than the 210 pound guys used to. So you have bigger collisions.
The same is true of basketball. There's a big difference between having a 300 pound center backing you down vrs a 225 pound center. Don't think so? Just as Spencer Hawes. Just by the nature of being bigger and stronger, he's going to be more physical. Whats allowed and not allowed is trendy and changes according to the whims of the NBA FO. You build your team to have an idenity. And if that idenity is tough physical play and defense, then you let the chips fall where they may.
All I know is that the Kings biggest weakness is at the center position on both ends of the court. They don't have a legitimate inside threat at that position on offense, and they don't have anyone that can hold position in the post on defense. Cousins is the best center in this draft. And he's happens to be good at what the Kings are in need of. Add in that he's a terrific rebounder and I would say that at his worse, he's better than Hawes at what we need.
There's a big difference between physical play and punching out another player. Yes, if the ref's think its getting a little too physical in the game they tend to get a little quick with the whistle. But don't tell me that there isn't any physical play. Back when I started watching basketball in the stone ages, the game wasn't nearly as physical as it is now. Basketball is just like any other sport. The players in general are bigger and faster overall. Just like football. Their still playing the game the same way, but now the linebackers are 250 pounds instead of 210 pound and they run the 40 in a faster time than the 210 pound guys used to. So you have bigger collisions.
The same is true of basketball. There's a big difference between having a 300 pound center backing you down vrs a 225 pound center. Don't think so? Just as Spencer Hawes. Just by the nature of being bigger and stronger, he's going to be more physical. Whats allowed and not allowed is trendy and changes according to the whims of the NBA FO. You build your team to have an idenity. And if that idenity is tough physical play and defense, then you let the chips fall where they may.
All I know is that the Kings biggest weakness is at the center position on both ends of the court. They don't have a legitimate inside threat at that position on offense, and they don't have anyone that can hold position in the post on defense. Cousins is the best center in this draft. And he's happens to be good at what the Kings are in need of. Add in that he's a terrific rebounder and I would say that at his worse, he's better than Hawes at what we need.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
My question to all of the above is: So what? What's the conclusion? And how do you draw the inferences?
Kingster
Hall of Famer
hammystyle
Starter
Don't play dumb.
You said guys aren't intimidated by physical players because they know that if a player gets physical he'll get kicked out of the league citing Artest as an example. Its a silly statement that has no basis in fact. Capt Fact just put out the stats that show that players don't get suspensions much longer than two games.
Capt Fact shouldn't even have to use stats because common sense should have ruled the day. Of course players would be intimidated by someone bigger and stronger then them with a penchant for physical play. its the simplest form of fear there is.
BTW - Artest is a poor example anyway because Artest did not get suspended for physical play, dirty play or even a fight with a player. He was suspended for attacking fans in the stands. Ben Wallace got suspendd for going after Artest, and yes, players are certainly intimidated by Big Ben.
Last edited:
It's very simple. You said:
The numbers from the past five years allow one to conclude the following:
Data 1: No player has been kicked out of the league in the past five years for physical basketball play. (In fact, I don't believe it has EVER happened but if you can find a counterexample I'd be glad to hear about it.)
Conclusion 1: Players do not get kicked out of the league for physical play. Your statement is wrong.
Data 2: At most, one player has been suspended more than two games for physical play - that one incident was three games, and from the description it may have been a fight.
Conclusion 2: Players do not receive long suspensions for physical play. Even if your statement was softened to say "major suspensions" it would still be wrong.
Data 3: There have been, at most, 46 incidents of physical play (outside of fighting) that have resulted in suspensions over the past five years. This corresponds to approximately one suspension for each 145 games played.
Conclusion 3: Either overly physical play rarely happens, or it rarely results in a suspension. The latter is far more likely. Thus, your implication that potential league consequences deter physical play and reduce the psychological advantages of a physical player is likely wrong.
It is possible that there is not a big "intimidation factor" in the NBA, but if so, the lack of such a factor is most certainly not the result of fear of league punishment.
Although many players who have reps for losing their cool and getting too physical, do have some ugly consequences to deal with. I'm sure you remember the year when 'Sheed averaged over .5 technicals a game, and the period when Artest would get a foul for sneezing.
The guys who get away with being nasty on an NBA court are the ones who don't lose their cool at all. You mention Ben Wallace, and for me that brings to mind a play when he fouled a guy really hard, away from the ball, after looking all around to make sure no refs were watching. He probably should have gotten a flagrant, but he didn't even get a PF.
Although what Wallace did was pretty low, he thought before he acted, and it worked for him. Had he gotten pissed off and spontaneously done the exact same thing, he would probably have been ejected.
As a martial artist, I put a lot of effort into developing the self control to keep from getting emotionally involved in fights. When a guy broke my jaw with a flying, spinning kick one time, I finished the match without letting it bother me. Because if you let yourself get angry in a fight, you let yourself get stupid, and you will lose.
I do think that intimidation is a factor in NBA games, but making it work requires being smart and in control of your emotions. Then you can be Ben Wallace. Otherwise, you're just 'Sheed.
hammystyle
Starter
That's true. Control is very important. If you're just a ticking time bomb, then you're often more of a detriment than a help. Its a fine balance between playing with an edge and playing out of control. I think Cousins can walk that line personally, and that combined with a 6'11 280 lb frame is pretty intimidating. More my worry with him is whether he can be coachable and fit in a team concept. That's why I like Favors more.
Who can help the present Kings Team more, Wall or Turner?
RESULT
Turner (61) 59%
Wall (27) 26%
Wall (27) 26%
Undecided (16) 15%
More fans of this board voted for Turner over Wall ( from May 1 to May 16, 2010 ). It will be interesting to see how much it will change after the draft lottery, the combine, and workouts.
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