Phil Jackson the Problem?

[VF21]

Yeah but I don't hear people saying Pop is a good coach just because he had Robinson/Duncan/Ginobili. Same goes for Red Aurbach who had Russell/Cousy.

I believe that this is a players game but I think it takes a good coach to gel the team and give them direction. Jackson had great players but so did a lot of other coaches that won a rings.

Name one Kings coach in the past 15 years that could have taken a Jordan or Kobe team all the way (except for Adelman who is a good coach)

If anything, that simply proves that good coaches can win with great players. Pretty much a no-brainer. The real proof is to see if a good coach can win without multiple HOF players.

Phil Jackson and Kobe have won, as I said above, the same number of rings as the Kings.

Is Jackson a bad coach? Hell no. Is he mediocre? Um, no...

Is he going to be able to win with a team that depends upon the likes of Andrew Bynum and Luke Walton? That remains to be seen.

Showing a picture of rings and saying we should automatically assume the problem has to be something other than Jackson because of past performance just doesn't do it for me...

And BTW? Did you see the comment above? Are those Jackson's rings...or Pat Riley's????



Oops. I noticed you edited your post after I'd prepared my reply. This isn't about the Kings, dude. It's about your blanket statement about Jackson and his rings equaling an automatic pass on any blame for the current Lakers mindset, work ethic, etc.

 

[Rookie]

Yeah but I don't hear people saying Pop is a good coach just because he had Robinson/Duncan/Ginobili. Same goes for Red Aurbach who had Russell/Cousy.

I believe that this is a players game but I think it takes a good coach to gel the team and give them direction. Jackson had great players but so did a lot of other coaches that won a rings.

Name one Kings coach in the past 15 years that could have taken a Jordan or Kobe team all the way (except for Adelman who is a good coach)

I agreed...

Whether I like Phil or not..one fact you can't take away is that he got his team to the championship. You can twisted anyway you like, whether it was becasue of MJ or because of Shaq, he got his team there. So he is a good coach, above average. I doubt there are many coaches that would of got the Lakers to the Finals last year either.

As much as the series with the Rockets give doubts, in the playoff you look ahead not behind.

Compare to Adelman, I'm an Adelman supporter so Adelman is always the better coach of the two.

 

[Superman]

Name one Kings coach in the past 15 years that could have taken a Jordan or Kobe team all the way (except for Adelman who is a good coach)

Well, when you put that kind of stipulation on it, what do you expect? The rest of our coaches were bad coaches. There's a reason he's the only one in the last 15 years to last more than a couple seasons.

By the way, that's in no way a testament to Phil Jackson's success. Like I said, our coaches have been terrible, with one exception.

 

[VF21]

I agreed...

Whether I like Phil or not..one fact you can't take away is that he got his team to the championship. You can twisted anyway you like, whether it was becasue of MJ or because of Shaq, he got his team there. So he is a good coach, above average. I doubt there are many coaches that would of got the Lakers to the Finals last year either.

As much as the series with the Rockets give doubts, in the playoff you look ahead not behind.

Compare to Adelman, I'm an Adelman supporter so Adelman is always the better coach of the two.

The point is that his comment isn't germane to the topic at hand. What this thread is about is whether or not the current problems within the Lakers (Kobe actually called them "bi-polar") are at least partially the fault of Phil Jackson and his style of coaching...

No one is disputing that Jackson is a HOF-bound coach with great success in his past. But he's not bullet-proof as far as the downside of teams.

 

[Gargamel]

Back to Phil - he is only a PART of the problem with this team. Honestly, I don't see much change in him now then from 2000-02, where his team was successful. He still sits for much of the game, refusing to call timeouts and letting his team play through the bad times and figure it out on their own. It's just more noticeable now because he isn't getting the results he once did.

Big time difference, stressed D much more in 2000-02 (documented blowups to that end), more demanding of certain players (Kobe), changed a culture around in 2000.

He's lost a lot of his edge since about 2004, he's resigned to more things now, less willing to impose his own standards whatever they be. Started in 2004 when he went away from the tri to accommodate GP. When he came back in 2005, he gave Kobe the keys to the fiefdom. He's also resigned himself to this team having a scoring mentality. He now gets irritated at media who don't give respect to other teams(!)

He's old and "happy" at home (if you catch my drift).

 

[Gargamel]

Yeah but I don't hear people saying Pop is a good coach just because he had Robinson/Duncan/Ginobili. Same goes for Red Aurbach who had Russell/Cousy.

I believe that this is a players game but I think it takes a good coach to gel the team and give them direction. Jackson had great players but so did a lot of other coaches that won a rings.

Name one Kings coach in the past 15 years that could have taken a Jordan or Kobe team all the way (except for Adelman who is a good coach)

The problem with the "he's had MJ & Shaq" thing is that it takes a Phil Jackson to convince MJ and Shaq to wholly accept his scheme and give him respect. Ask Collins, Brian Hill, SVG, and Rambis if they disagree with me on that one.

Phil is NOT a Larry Brown type. Brown is a great coach in his own way, but if you were to argue that the difference between him and Phil is that Larry simply didn't get the same opportunities, the league's GMs would laugh. A Larry Brown doesn't get the keys to a Michael Jordan or a Shaquille O'Neal because they will see right thru him much faster than youngsters and because Larry himself doesn't like prima donnas (see AI).

PS: Riles pulled a Phil in 2006 and few begrudged him... I think he's an oiled genius, but what did he ever win w/o multiple HOF players? Another thing, similar to Jax, Riles got the seal of approval from Magic Johnson that Westhead did not and Westhead fell off the map thereafter. Magic has said himself that Riley was the only coach who didn't have to tiptoe around Kareem's feelings, something even Jerry West was cognizant of in the late 70s.

 

[Gargamel]

Well, when you put that kind of stipulation on it, what do you expect? The rest of our coaches were bad coaches. There's a reason he's the only one in the last 15 years to last more than a couple seasons.

By the way, that's in no way a testament to Phil Jackson's success. Like I said, our coaches have been terrible, with one exception.

It's mainly a function of the difficulty of a small market team landing a top-tier coach.

 

[Superman]

It's mainly a function of the difficulty of a small market team landing a top-tier coach.

I'll give you that. My point was that you can't say "name a Kings coach who would have won a championship", and then take away the one respectable coach we've had like he doesn't count.

 

[gunks]

Yeah but I don't hear people saying Pop is a good coach just because he had Robinson/Duncan/Ginobili. Same goes for Red Aurbach who had Russell/Cousy.

I believe that this is a players game but I think it takes a good coach to gel the team and give them direction. Jackson had great players but so did a lot of other coaches that won a rings.

Name one Kings coach in the past 15 years that could have taken a Jordan or Kobe team all the way (except for Adelman who is a good coach)

Phil is a good coach. But I still say he's overrated. He did not win those rings, his players (Jordan,Shaq) did. Without those 2 Phil would have 0 rings. He'd have himself a good win % (probably around what Rick has), but he needed those guys to go all the way....Which is all I'm saying.

And people should say the same about Pop or Red. It is a players league.


This Lakers team is incredibly lazy. True, that cant all be put on the coach. But if Phil is as great as he says and thinks he is, he should at least be able to inspire a contender enough to not take 7 games to beat a heavily depleted Rockets team.

This next series will be telling. Methinks it will be a lot more of the same, with perhaps a bit more Kobe physical abuse in the huddles (it makes me laugh when he smacks around his teammates though, totally hilarious).

 

[pdxKingsFan]

The problem with the "he's had MJ & Shaq" thing is that it takes a Phil Jackson to convince MJ and Shaq to wholly accept his scheme and give him respect. Ask Collins, Brian Hill, SVG, and Rambis if they disagree with me on that one.

I agree 100% but I'd use Kobe as Exhibit B over Shaq. Shaq has had some success with other coaches and teams, MJ and Kobe have pretty much run roughshod over anybody else who's attempted to coach them in the NBA as well as alienating many teammates in the process.

Maybe Michael Schumacher doesn't win 5 consecutive driver's titles without Ferarri, doesn't mean that anybody you give those keys to can automatically pull off the same feat.

 

[CaminoChaos]

And BTW? Did you see the comment above? Are those Jackson's rings...or Pat Riley's????

It's the picture that came up when I googled "Phil Jackson Rings". Blame google.

But that kind of proves my point. Is Riley overrated because he had Magic or Shaq/Wade?

 

[Gargamel]

I agree 100% but I'd use Kobe as Exhibit B over Shaq. Shaq has had some success with other coaches and teams, MJ and Kobe have pretty much run roughshod over anybody else who's attempted to coach them in the NBA as well as alienating many teammates in the process.

Kobe's a harder issue because Phil treats him completely differently now than he did when Shaq was here. If Phil retires now, I think that they try to go to Brian Shaw or someone who will treat him with kit gloves. Kobe's going to be a 15 yr vet at the earliest when the next coach is roaming the sidelines. If they do get a rah-rah, relearn everything guy, I doubt Kobe will be included in that to the extent that younger guys are (sshh, he already sports a clipboard now...). Any new coach would treat him like he were a real black mamba, with extreme caution.

 

[Jerryaki]

Name one Kings coach in the past 15 years that could have taken a Jordan or Kobe team all the way (except for Adelman who is a good coach)

easy: eric "drink the kool-aid" musselman.