Petrie Identifying team needs (Rim protector!)

[SacTownKid]

It isn't about dally it's about need. And a player like dally is far more important to this (and most) teams than a player like Hayes.

"Precious pick and roll defense" is kind of important you know, pretty much a backbone of most championship teams. And if you think a shotblocker despite any and all drawbacks in other areas of the game is going to save this team, I just hope the coach and Petrie himself don't see it that way because it's not that simple.

I've said it before, will say it again, if the idea was to find a backup center to fill in time between Cousins sightings and nothing more, I fully agree Daly would have been the way to go.

 

[SacTownKid]

I think we can safely say, that Hayes gets the most bang for the buck, as a 6'6" center that can't jump, and has an average wingspan. There's absolutely nothing that stands out about him, other than his knowledge of how to play basketball, and execute that knowledge to the best of his abilities. I look as Hayes as a luxury player. Someone that you'd love to have on your bench, if you already have the main pieces in place. I don't look at him as one of the main peices. So from that prespective, it appeared to me that we were putting the cart before the horse.

I think if I had a choice between Beasley and Darko, I'd go with Beasley, simply because of the talent level. But then you're taking on a possible headache. But, lets remember, the same thing was thought about T Will, and there are teams out there that think the same thing about Cuz. Darko would be the safer choice, and he would add height to a mostly undersized team. But hell, why not build a team out of talented malcontents that nobody else wants. They'd have a common bond and goal. To prove the rest of the NBA wrong. Why not become the old Oakland A's of basketball. A team that fought with each other in the lockerroom, and kicked everyone's butt on the field.

Defensive specialist types have always held a certain value around the league for the exact reasons you bring up which is why it's so mind boggling that this coach can misread a player so much and almost never use him for that skill set. It was that skill set that teams found value in, along with his passing which I think shouldn't be overlooked, he's putting up serious numbers per minute for a team so out of sorts for most of the year. I guess it's good that Smart finally put him in a position to pass, but according to another thread based on the most concrete and cold hard fact possible it didn't happen. LOL.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I can actually see a deal for Beasley happening though.

Beasley's a free agent now. Technically he may be a restricted free agent, but I doubt Minny will make the QO - it's too big. If we want Beasley, we sign him straight up in free agency. I don't really see him getting more than the MLE. And a sign-and-trade for Beasley would be...weird. I don't imagine that would happen.

 

[sdballer]

"Precious pick and roll defense" is kind of important you know, pretty much a backbone of most championship teams. And if you think a shotblocker despite any and all drawbacks in other areas of the game is going to save this team, I just hope the coach and Petrie himself don't see it that way because it's not that simple.

I've said it before, will say it again, if the idea was to find a backup center to fill in time between Cousins sightings and nothing more, I fully agree Daly would have been the way to go.

I agree that pnr defense is important. My point was that this team needs someone to help defend the rim and to make up for defensive deficiencies we have everywhere else on the court (especially when reke plays out of position). Chuck simply doesn't do that and has never done that. He plays good man-to-man d on certain types of opponents. That is a skill with tremendous value as a swing defender, less so from an undersized post guy and considerably less when that player loses the ability to rebound or contribute much on offense.

I don't know why we are even discussing this still. Last offseason, many of us said that a post defender (beyond just single coverage) was of huge importance. The front office (and fans with your perspective) disagreed and thought Hayes was more than able to fill Dally's shoes. He didn't and now the front office is stating they need to bring in a player to serve the same roll Dally used to and that Hayes isn't really capable of. It doesn't mean I or any other fan of having an interior presence on this team doesn't recognize Dally's (or player's like him) faults. It's that their faults vs strengths are more important to this team than the things that Hayes does or doesn't bring.

I like Chuck and always have. As a limited minute big to bring a veteran presence and a guy to help defend certain guys for 10-20 minutes per game. He was brought in to serve a much larger role at the expense of a need we had. He can't be that player.

 

[sdballer]

Defensive specialist types have always held a certain value around the league for the exact reasons you bring up which is why it's so mind boggling that this coach can misread a player so much and almost never use him for that skill set. It was that skill set that teams found value in, along with his passing which I think shouldn't be overlooked, he's putting up serious numbers per minute for a team so out of sorts for most of the year. I guess it's good that Smart finally put him in a position to pass, but according to another thread based on the most concrete and cold hard fact possible it didn't happen. LOL.

What are these serious per minute numbers Hayes is putting up?

Per 36 Minutes
Hayes: 6pts, 8 reb, 2.5 assists, 1 stl, .5 blks. 1.7 to's, 42% shooting, 66% ft

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Beasley's a free agent now. Technically he may be a restricted free agent, but I doubt Minny will make the QO - it's too big. If we want Beasley, we sign him straight up in free agency. I don't really see him getting more than the MLE. And a sign-and-trade for Beasley would be...weird. I don't imagine that would happen.

Yea, I realized that. It would be awkward for sure, but I could see them extending the QO if they already had some sort of deal in place .. and at that token, I doubt the Maloofs would 'spend' for Beasley without dumping some salary .. so it makes sense from the Kings POV. Agreed though, a deal as I put it was more of a hypothetical ... and while possible, not totally realistic.

 

[Bricklayer]

I really think that to maximize Hayes's value, you get that shoulder healthy, get him tip top shape, and have him make a positive impact on the Kings next year. Hayes was a much better player at Houston.

And he still wasn't worth anything in a trade. A 6'6" freakish player who starts on lottery teams? Nobody is going to give you a first round pick for that, unless maybe in a perfect worls an elite team looking to add an experienced hand to the end of its bench for a title run might trade you their 27th pick or some such. But in general no. Nobody is going to trade you a good young player for that, because they have hopes the good young player will be better. Trying to maximize Chuck Hayes' trade value is just not remotely worth the time and effort you put into it. You gain very little, and likely gain less than you would by simply escaping a longterm contract.

I certinaly hope Chuck comes to camp next year healthy and in shape, because this whole thing has started to acquire the odor of Kenny Thomas. Geoff has an absolute fetish for tiny Houston frontcourt players (Thomas, Landry, now Chuck).

 

[bajaden]

Beasley's a free agent now. Technically he may be a restricted free agent, but I doubt Minny will make the QO - it's too big. If we want Beasley, we sign him straight up in free agency. I don't really see him getting more than the MLE. And a sign-and-trade for Beasley would be...weird. I don't imagine that would happen.

Your probably right, but if Minny wants Hayes (big if), then a sign and trade is one way to do that. They would essentially be trading someone they didn't want for someone they did want. Sort of a win/win for them. Not sure about our end.

 

[hiero]

I love Ilyasova as a player, but it's extremely obvious that what we need next to Cousins is a shot blocker protector. ilyasova is good on defense but he isn't that. Ideally Whiteside could develop into a starting player but that isn't anywhere soon. ideally we could have just signed dalembert but whatever. to me this sounds like were not gonna sign JT long term (maybe trade?) and were going after a guy who is a shot blocking expert to allow cousins not to always have to try and take charges and get so many fouls on defense. I think Petrie is going to draft Drummond or Barnes if available, that's my best interpretation of these comments. everyone knows we aren't major trade guys especially with the Maloofs at an all time high for worthlessness.

 

[ParniValjak]

I love Ilyasova as a player, but it's extremely obvious that what we need next to Cousins is a shot blocker protector. ilyasova is good on defense but he isn't that. Ideally Whiteside could develop into a starting player but that isn't anywhere soon. ideally we could have just signed dalembert but whatever. to me this sounds like were not gonna sign JT long term (maybe trade?) and were going after a guy who is a shot blocking expert to allow cousins not to always have to try and take charges and get so many fouls on defense. I think Petrie is going to draft Drummond or Barnes if available, that's my best interpretation of these comments. everyone knows we aren't major trade guys especially with the Maloofs at an all time high for worthlessness.

We need to know where we are picking first before we start focusing on the type of players that we might be after. That might also decide whether we are going to re-sign JT or not. In perfect world you would re-sign JT regardless but since our owners are dead broke and are not interested in spending to build a contender, if we end up with pick 1, they will not bring JT back because we have been dumb enough to invest a lot of money into Chuck Hayes.

EDIT: Petrie seems to come out at the end of every season saying we need a rim protector yet for over a decade outside of Dalembert and Keon Clark, he never actually got one. Its one thing to talk the talk but its another to walk the walk. I am yet to actually see him walk the walk for more than a season. Neither of the shotblocker he recruited have stuck around fro more than a season.

 

[bajaden]

We need to know where we are picking first before we start focusing on the type of players that we might be after. That might also decide whether we are going to re-sign JT or not. In perfect world you would re-sign JT regardless but since our owners are dead broke and are not interested in spending to build a contender, if we end up with pick 1, they will not bring JT back because we have been dumb enough to invest a lot of money into Chuck Hayes.

EDIT: Petrie seems to come out at the end of every season saying we need a rim protector yet for over a decade outside of Dalembert and Keon Clark, he never actually got one. Its one thing to talk the talk but its another to walk the walk. I am yet to actually see him walk the walk for more than a season. Neither of the shotblocker he recruited have stuck around fro more than a season.

I understand where your coming from in regards to JT. Hard to predict how much money the Maloofs are willing to spend, and if they still have their wallet zipped, then there's not much Petrie can do. I just hope we can bring back JT. Not just because I see him as a solid rotational player, but because having a team also means familiarity. The longer players play together, the more familiar they are with one another, the more they become a team. Its very difficult to have any sort of continuity if you just keep rotating players on and off the roster. At some point you have to have a core of solid players that your building around. Especially so, when most of them are young and inexperienced.

Another reason, is you want to impress players like Cousins, that your willing to pay to keep your valuable assests. You want Cousins to resign when his contract is up, then put your money where your mouth is.

 

[ParniValjak]

I understand where your coming from in regards to JT. Hard to predict how much money the Maloofs are willing to spend, and if they still have their wallet zipped, then there's not much Petrie can do. I just hope we can bring back JT. Not just because I see him as a solid rotational player, but because having a team also means familiarity. The longer players play together, the more familiar they are with one another, the more they become a team. Its very difficult to have any sort of continuity if you just keep rotating players on and off the roster. At some point you have to have a core of solid players that your building around. Especially so, when most of them are young and inexperienced.

Another reason, is you want to impress players like Cousins, that your willing to pay to keep your valuable assests. You want Cousins to resign when his contract is up, then put your money where your mouth is.

I agree with you on all counts! I have said many times that JT is as good a 3rd big man as you can get on a team who can be a spot starter. I am still strong of that opinion and to me he is a must keep at a reasonable price (and by reasonable I do not mean tight *** but not extravagant).

Let say Kings end up winning the lottery, I would be as happy as pig in **** if we go forward with the Cousins - Davis - JT - Whiteside big men rotation. I would be ECSTATIC! Unfortunately, our owners are ruled by the $$$ in which case they would look at their roster and see there is some $17-18 million committed to Chuck Hayes who at this point would be hard to move and you say to yourself, I am not going to spend $5-7 million per season on JT and have $10-12 million committed to JT and Hayes when I have Cousins and Davis. Its ridiculous thought to consider when you have owners willing to spend to be a contending team but when we are stuck with Maloofs, unfortunately that is exactly what they will be thinking.

That sort of thought process will never take place if your team is owned by Buss, Cuban, Dolan, Allen et al....but unfortunately it is how Maloofs operate.

 

[bajaden]

I agree with you on all counts! I have said many times that JT is as good a 3rd big man as you can get on a team who can be a spot starter. I am still strong of that opinion and to me he is a must keep at a reasonable price (and by reasonable I do not mean tight *** but not extravagant).

Let say Kings end up winning the lottery, I would be as happy as pig in **** if we go forward with the Cousins - Davis - JT - Whiteside big men rotation. I would be ECSTATIC! Unfortunately, our owners are ruled by the $$$ in which case they would look at their roster and see there is some $17-18 million committed to Chuck Hayes who at this point would be hard to move and you say to yourself, I am not going to spend $5-7 million per season on JT and have $10-12 million committed to JT and Hayes when I have Cousins and Davis. Its ridiculous thought to consider when you have owners willing to spend to be a contending team but when we are stuck with Maloofs, unfortunately that is exactly what they will be thinking.

That sort of thought process will never take place if your team is owned by Buss, Cuban, Dolan, Allen et al....but unfortunately it is how Maloofs operate.

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Sadly, I can't argue with much of what you said. What I would say to the Maloof's, and will, if I see them again this year at summer league is, "You want to win back the fans, then show them your commited to building a good team by spending the money it takes". Talk is meaningless if your actions don't back it up. Two years ago they were very accessable at summer league, so I plan to hunt them down this year if I can.

 

[Uncia03]

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Sadly, I can't argue with much of what you said. What I would say to the Maloof's, and will, if I see them again this year at summer league is, "You want to win back the fans, then show them your commited to building a good team by spending the money it takes". Talk is meaningless if your actions don't back it up. Two years ago they were very accessable at summer league, so I plan to hunt them down this year if I can.

I think one of the telling things this last off-season was their claim that they made good on their promise to spend money because they just spent 60+ million on players. What they were doing was adding up the entire cost of the players contracts (Hayes/Outlaw/Fredette,ect.) over the course of the contract, then using that number.
Well no-one discusses player spending in that fashion, but they did to prove that they were committed. I get the feeling that it will be much of the same if you did manage to wrangle some chat time with them.

As to Carolija's premise that we could lose JT if we got Davis, unfortunately I could see that playing out, and it will be difficult to field a competitive team if that is the mind-set of the people who have the purse-strings.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Sadly, I can't argue with much of what you said. What I would say to the Maloof's, and will, if I see them again this year at summer league is, "You want to win back the fans, then show them your commited to building a good team by spending the money it takes". Talk is meaningless if your actions don't back it up. Two years ago they were very accessable at summer league, so I plan to hunt them down this year if I can.

Just spending money on the team won't get it done with the fans in Sacramento right now, though. It would require a commitment to stay in the city, and not just words but Dollars and a Lease - the kind of thing they had the exact opportunity to do this year before maloofing it away.

 

[bajaden]

Just spending money on the team won't get it done with the fans in Sacramento right now, though. It would require a commitment to stay in the city, and not just words but Dollars and a Lease - the kind of thing they had the exact opportunity to do this year before maloofing it away.

I don't disagree with that. But you have to start somewhere, and that would be a start on a long road back. On a personal level, they'll never win me back. But for those fans that aren't as close to the issues as those of us on the fourm are, it would take less to recreate some goodwill

 

[VF21]

\


Sadly, I can't argue with much of what you said. What I would say to the Maloof's, and will, if I see them again this year at summer league is, "You want to win back the fans, then show them your commited to building a good team by spending the money it takes". Talk is meaningless if your actions don't back it up. Two years ago they were very accessable at summer league, so I plan to hunt them down this year if I can.

Can I send you a few things I'd like you to tell them for me?

 

[SacKings7]

You guys are taking my Ilyasova idea the wrong way. I said I'd like to get him to play him at SF, not PF. Clearly he's nowhere near the player we need at PF.

 

[The_Jamal]

You guys are taking my Ilyasova idea the wrong way. I said I'd like to get him to play him at SF, not PF. Clearly he's nowhere near the player we need at PF.

You haven't seen Illyasova play if you think he's a SF.

 

[SacKings7]

You haven't seen Illyasova play if you think he's a SF.

He started his career at SF. He's big, surprisingly good rebounder (although at SF maybe not) and he can shoot. I don't see any harm in trying it out, it's not like we have anything to lose at this point. My only concern is, can he defend SF's? Ilyasova is not coming here anyway, so this is likely a moot point anyway. I wouldn't be surprised to see Delfino signed though.

 

[SacTownKid]

I agree that pnr defense is important. My point was that this team needs someone to help defend the rim and to make up for defensive deficiencies we have everywhere else on the court (especially when reke plays out of position). Chuck simply doesn't do that and has never done that. He plays good man-to-man d on certain types of opponents. That is a skill with tremendous value as a swing defender, less so from an undersized post guy and considerably less when that player loses the ability to rebound or contribute much on offense.

I don't know why we are even discussing this still. Last offseason, many of us said that a post defender (beyond just single coverage) was of huge importance. The front office (and fans with your perspective) disagreed and thought Hayes was more than able to fill Dally's shoes. He didn't and now the front office is stating they need to bring in a player to serve the same roll Dally used to and that Hayes isn't really capable of. It doesn't mean I or any other fan of having an interior presence on this team doesn't recognize Dally's (or player's like him) faults. It's that their faults vs strengths are more important to this team than the things that Hayes does or doesn't bring.

I like Chuck and always have. As a limited minute big to bring a veteran presence and a guy to help defend certain guys for 10-20 minutes per game. He was brought in to serve a much larger role at the expense of a need we had. He can't be that player.

WRONG. I thought he could be a better fit NEXT TO COUSINS. Yet, this last coach used him as a replacement for Dalembert, or at least the minutes that probably would have gone to him. That role of shotblocker wasn't filled when Hayes was brought aboard and I surely hope the GM of this team didn't think so either because he has no clue about talent and personnel if so.

The entire basis of this argument stems from one very real factor, Hayes isn't being used to his full effectiveness, nor is he being used in the way that most who advocated his signing wanted to see.

 

[SacTownKid]

What are these serious per minute numbers Hayes is putting up?

Per 36 Minutes
Hayes: 6pts, 8 reb, 2.5 assists, 1 stl, .5 blks. 1.7 to's, 42% shooting, 66% ft

Those are numbers for the year. Didn't start being used for his passing until late Feb early March. In March he was at around 3.5 apg per 36. Minutes were inconsistent as well as role later in the year. They started running more pick and roll with him for some reason. There was a stretch when he was used with that bench unit where he was around 4+ apg.

 

[sdballer]

Those are numbers for the year. Didn't start being used for his passing until late Feb early March. In March he was at around 3.5 apg per 36. Minutes were inconsistent as well as role later in the year. They started running more pick and roll with him for some reason. There was a stretch when he was used with that bench unit where he was around 4+ apg.

His minutes and role were inconsistent because he didn't perform. When you point to assists per 36 minutes as the impressive numbers your 2nd or 3rd big is putting up, I think thats telling

 

[sdballer]

WRONG. I thought he could be a better fit NEXT TO COUSINS. Yet, this last coach used him as a replacement for Dalembert, or at least the minutes that probably would have gone to him. That role of shotblocker wasn't filled when Hayes was brought aboard and I surely hope the GM of this team didn't think so either because he has no clue about talent and personnel if so.

The entire basis of this argument stems from one very real factor, Hayes isn't being used to his full effectiveness, nor is he being used in the way that most who advocated his signing wanted to see.

Im just confused. Dally started next to cousins and provided the interior presence plus big rebounding that was showing signs of success at the end of last year. What do you mean that you wanted him to play next to cousins but not as a replacement to dally? Do you think what he provided was more important to this team that what dally did because he cant replace dally's minutes if you dont?

 

[Prince_XY]

https://twitter.com/#!/mr_jasonjones
Jason Jones has been teasing his Petrie Q&A for a few days now, but just tweeted some of the basics. Most noticeably, team needs. I think any one of our posters could have said the same thing, but it's nice to hear it from the boss - 3pt shooting and a defensive big are clear needs for this team.

And now that he's acknowledging the problem, I'll be interested to see how he tries to fix it.

LOL

Fans who thought Petrie is so good and a basketball genius better think twice.

I hate to say this and forgive me Mr. Petrie. I think you are one of the worse and clueless /du** GM's in the NBA.

Ordinary fans already knew that way before you. You only figured that out just now?

 

[sidney]

Considering the shoestring budget, how about the Birdman if we don't draft big? 2 years / 9M left on his contract. PER was 19 this year in limited minutes. Faried is their new guy and Birdman isn't even playing.

5.3 PPG 4.6REB 1.4BLK in 15 minutes this year.

Scratch that idea...

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/220990/Chris_Andersen_Excused_By_Nuggets_Following_Search_Of_Home

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Scratch that idea...

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/220990/Chris_Andersen_Excused_By_Nuggets_Following_Search_Of_Home

Ooof. I hope for everybody's sake that whatever he's suspected of is just a false alarm.

 

[Warhawk]

Ooof. I hope for everybody's sake that whatever he's suspected of is just a false alarm.

Agreed.

And I am going to take this opportunity ask for everyone to exercise some class on this topic based on the info presented in that link. Please do not start posting stupid stuff that cause us to start waving the infraction stick. The accusations are serious but also sensitive to discuss. Please tread lightly.

Thanks for your understanding.

 

[SacTownKid]

Im just confused. Dally started next to cousins and provided the interior presence plus big rebounding that was showing signs of success at the end of last year. What do you mean that you wanted him to play next to cousins but not as a replacement to dally? Do you think what he provided was more important to this team that what dally did because he cant replace dally's minutes if you dont?

Daly mostly played C for this team in terms of matchups, Cousins often times spent his minutes guarding a Josh Smith, Blake Griffin, etc and he was consistently the only big guarding the pick and roll which as I saw more and more of them together, I realized that could be a problem moving forward with that duo.

Whatever position you want to call it, I feel Hayes is a better fit next to Cousins because Hayes can guard the pick and roll very well, play quicker or bigger players, and it gives you a lot of defensive versatility between the two since Cousins is very mobile for a C himself. Go check back years on this board and you'll get my opinion on the importance of a shotblocker, and they obviously need one in that rotation somewhere, but it doesn't change anything about how Hayes is a nice compliment to Cousins and should spend at least half of his minutes playing next to Cousins and not Donte Greene or Travis Outlaw. At the very least play him next to a bigger or more productive player. Hayes has never been the most productive outside of passing for a big and sticking him next to Donte Greene resulted it what it should have, very little rebounding or production from your frontcourt because you're asking two specialist types to play outside of their abilities and role.

 

[gunks]

I'm willing to give Hayes a second chance.

He was decent pre injury. Hopefully he heals up and gets into good shape this summer. I could see him bouncing back and actually being servicable for us.

Also hoping Whiteside gets better. Dude can be our Ibaka (but taller!).