Peja To Step Down

#32
No, it wasn't.

You can't call stopping all NBA and team activity for months then jumping into a very abbreviated practice and 8-game tune-up for playoff teams "year 2" for the coaching staff or the players.
Agreed. Also, the Kings had 4 players out with COVID and 1 player on quarantine due to a bubble violation, including Buddy, Barnes and Holmes.

They also lost their top big off the bench in Bagley and Fox was out for a while due to a sprained ankle.

That’s 5 of your top 7 players unavailable or limited for most of the abbreviated training camp and the 2 week “second season”.
 
#33
Agreed. Also, the Kings had 4 players out with COVID and 1 player on quarantine due to a bubble violation, including Buddy, Barnes and Holmes.

They also lost their top big off the bench in Bagley and Fox was out for a while due to a sprained ankle.

That’s 5 of your top 7 players unavailable or limited for most of the abbreviated training camp and the 2 week “second season”.
True on your points but how to explain other bubble teams who similarly were missing top rotation players and they played well.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#34
Well, Luke’s broken system is the same one they run at GSW and they seem to have won multiple championships running that system.

It may be you take your lumps now and once the players learn what to do and where to be on the floor, this system may lead to winning once the players learn it a higher level.

The Kings were really clicking the last month before the lockdown. If the season wasn’t shutdown, their momentum may had carried them into the playoffs.

Just running out of the gym like Joeger last season may be fun to watch, but hasn’t proven to be successful come the playoffs, when the game slows down.
Just wanted to say I would "like" this post to infinity and beyond if I could. (Even mod powers have their limits. ;) )
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#35
I would also like to add David’s system stopped working halfway through a single season. It was unsustainable. I’ll honestly admit I don’t have a read on Walton because this season was kind of a lost one on me. But I’m definitely not reminiscing about the good ol’ days of one half season of good ball under David.
Fair point. My comment about uber-liking the post was more about the first three sentences than the last one. :)
 
#36
No, it wasn't.

You can't call stopping all NBA and team activity for months then jumping into a very abbreviated practice and 8-game tune-up for playoff teams "year 2" for the coaching staff or the players.
I'm talking mentally, which is where the majority of the damage from this experience is coming from. I even heard interviews where players alluded to it. And coaches. It felt like a season starting over not a continuation of the same season.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#37
True on your points but how to explain other bubble teams who similarly were missing top rotation players and they played well.
There's a fallacy here. We aren't talking about other bubble teams. We're talking about the Kings. Other teams may have gone through SOME similar situations but each one has unique differences. If people can find a way to avoid the "grass is greener" temptation and just look at the Kings, I personally believe the picture becomes a lot clearer. If nothing else, we (as is our wont) suffered from a severe bout of Murphy's Law Syndrome - and it appears we are still unable to find a cure.
 
#38
And in the end Vivek is just costing himself money while making roster decisions very difficult if you keep the same guy in the coaching seat that determines how the team ACTUALLY FREAKING PLAYS. Vlade didn't use Buddy at backup PG. Vlade didn't put Cory Joseph at starting SG. Holy ****. Do these people have brain worms? If they keep Luke we are hinging all our hopes on the possibility that Vlade was directing play style and rotations from his office and not just allowing it to happen.
I believe “how the teamACTUALLY FREAKING PLAYS” has been pretty damn good so please revise your support of the proposition that Walton must be fired.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#39
Fair point. My comment about uber-liking the post was more about the first three sentences than the last one. :)
Lol I deleted my comment because the Joerger bit swung a bit too OT. But agree about the first three. As I mentioned I don’t have any vitriol for Luke because I didn’t watch close enough this season.
 
#41
There's a fallacy here. We aren't talking about other bubble teams. We're talking about the Kings. Other teams may have gone through SOME similar situations but each one has unique differences. If people can find a way to avoid the "grass is greener" temptation and just look at the Kings, I personally believe the picture becomes a lot clearer. If nothing else, we (as is our wont) suffered from a severe bout of Murphy's Law Syndrome - and it appears we are still unable to find a cure.
And when you look at the 5 man advanced stats play style becomes clearer. Yet, there we went. Clueless substitution after substitution that weren't determined at all by injury for the most part. Even with injuries there were other options that should never have included Buddy as your backup PG. Joseph as your starting SG for a few games. Post ups to players that aren't really post up players. Motion offense that saw shots coming late in the clock. They went over the pace stats. While Joerger used an equally as wrong horns set in the half court and refused to play small (as Walton mostly did) at least he brought that pace up. It's easy to see the gross misuse here. And unfortunately the stats back it up. Murphy's Law gets you some brownie points but sometimes Murphy puts on a sports jacket, carries a dry erase board, and creates his own luck.
 
#42
The thing about everything is some people are "happy" about the changes and some people are wondering what this does for the franchise in terms of stability, reputation and most of all team success.

Since team success is a shared goal of everyone---and if its not a shared goal of someone then they arent really a Kings fan but more so a fan of the chaos this team seems to demonstrate year after year now running 14 years ongoing.

Vlade--was given stability and Luke was his choice and his original choice preceding Dave Joeger who apparently took the job in part bc he thought he could take over for Vlade. Great coach but, if true, questionable motives.

Good, or bad, Vlade did have conviction. He expeessed regrets over Luka but did claim he still has immense potential in Bagley which will be seen with patience. He still believes in him. Results TBD. Hes only 21 so you never know if he reaches that potential but in terms of some of his other picks like Papagiannis, also young, he didnt cling to eternal hope with him so maybe Bagley does deliver. I personally feel he still retains all star potential if, and only if everything goes right, but Luka still should have been the pick. If Bagley reaches all star level its still a major loss in terms of talent but not catastrophic such as Bowie over Jordan. Im not saying they are the same player in saying this, but lets say he is like Karl Malone. Karl Malone is still an all star and a hall of famer and combined with Fox still has vast potential.

Joe Dumars- provides credibility. Known for his decisions at the latter part of his tenure, he also did construct 6 yrs of ECF teams with all stars and no true superstars. He also claims he learned from his draft blunders and trades. Imagine if he did? Imagine if that knowledge leads to his performances overseeing championship level teams? Im not saying he will but the fact the potential is there is something positive.

Luke Walton- He looks inept coaching this team. He looks dense and stubborn. He looks like he wants to drill a message into his players heads at the expense of winning perhaps using a vision of the "long road' outlook and consistent with what one of his previous coaches--Phil Jackson would do. He has the least potential in my mind of being part of any solution and he seems to alienate his players which is an odd characteristic for someone who is "laidback" and also a "players coach," but he does deserve credit for benching players when they dont produce and demanding more from them. Vlade echoed those comments in his interview saying basically he had to work on his deficiencies and he knew what they were.
Most people would criticize a coach for NOT having the guts to make those changes. Also, and it juat dawned on me, but perhaps Luke was letting Buddy play PG effectively allowing him to "do his thing," and then showing him with actual results why in fact playing him as a PG doesnt work. In fact to support that theory, he played very few minutes when he tried doing things that seemed outside of his skillset.

I am not endorsing that method of coaching nor am I saying it is effective at all, but most players, especially talented players would learn from those mistakes. He didnt and perhaps thats why several reports indicated Joeger wanted to trade Buddy.

In fact the more I saw Bogi play in the bubble and given his level of production it seems obvious why Vlade supported Bogi and Vivek still loves Buddy and perhaps that was a point of disagreement between them as well. Not that Buddy doesnt have talent---he does. He is an elite shooter. But perhaps Buddy who often cites his love for Kobe, perhaps still thinks he can do things like his mentor did. Its great to have that belief but it becomes kind of self defeating when the body of evidence supports the opposite. Maybe Buddy just cant accept being a star in his role.

Harry Giles is perhaps the most bitter pill to swallow. Beloved by Kings fan. He embodies everything Kings fans love in a player. He "gets" being a King and Sacramento. Now Vlade insists he was out of shape and Harry denies that. This is a tough one because I believe in Giles. But perhaps Divac also believed he was out of shape. It still does not excuse not picking up that option but does jive with what Walton does with Buddy. Their methods are unconventional but I see what they were trying to do. I just hope Harry finds it in his heart to stay bc he loves Sactown that much.

The descriptions he gives are of connection and many players who do connect with a particular team and its fans often struggle to ever find connections like that again. Im hoping that does weigh heavily in his decision.

Its unclear why the same principles were not applied to team defense and other things but they werent.

These are just some random thoughts but perhaps Dumars will have learned enough from before to make appreciable differences in the team and start a trend of winning again.
 
#43
There's a fallacy here. We aren't talking about other bubble teams. We're talking about the Kings. Other teams may have gone through SOME similar situations but each one has unique differences. If people can find a way to avoid the "grass is greener" temptation and just look at the Kings, I personally believe the picture becomes a lot clearer. If nothing else, we (as is our wont) suffered from a severe bout of Murphy's Law Syndrome - and it appears we are still unable to find a cure.
Respectfully, I think you are in denial that while the Kings didn’t play well due to various reasons, other teams seemed to overcome their similar situations. They looked unprepared and unable to compete at a higher level.
 

Warhawk

The cake is a lie.
Staff member
#44
I'm talking mentally, which is where the majority of the damage from this experience is coming from. I even heard interviews where players alluded to it. And coaches. It felt like a season starting over not a continuation of the same season.
That still doesn't make it "basically like year 2" in the NBA. That makes it a summer league stint.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#45
Respectfully, I think you are in denial that while the Kings didn’t play well due to various reasons, other teams seemed to overcome their similar situations. They looked unprepared and unable to compete at a higher level.
You're entitled to your opinion, which obviously differs from mine. In denial? Whatever.

And please don't preface your comment with respectfully ...
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#46
The thing about everything is some people are "happy" about the changes and some people are wondering what this does for the franchise in terms of stability, reputation and most of all team success.

Since team success is a shared goal of everyone---and if its not a shared goal of someone then they arent really a Kings fan but more so a fan of the chaos this team seems to demonstrate year after year now running 14 years ongoing.

Vlade--was given stability and Luke was his choice and his original choice preceding Dave Joeger who apparently took the job in part bc he thought he could take over for Vlade. Great coach but, if true, questionable motives.

Good, or bad, Vlade did have conviction. He expeessed regrets over Luka but did claim he still has immense potential in Bagley which will be seen with patience. He still believes in him. Results TBD. Hes only 21 so you never know if he reaches that potential but in terms of some of his other picks like Papagiannis, also young, he didnt cling to eternal hope with him so maybe Bagley does deliver. I personally feel he still retains all star potential if, and only if everything goes right, but Luka still should have been the pick. If Bagley reaches all star level its still a major loss in terms of talent but not catastrophic such as Bowie over Jordan. Im not saying they are the same player in saying this, but lets say he is like Karl Malone. Karl Malone is still an all star and a hall of famer and combined with Fox still has vast potential.

Joe Dumars- provides credibility. Known for his decisions at the latter part of his tenure, he also did construct 6 yrs of ECF teams with all stars and no true superstars. He also claims he learned from his draft blunders and trades. Imagine if he did? Imagine if that knowledge leads to his performances overseeing championship level teams? Im not saying he will but the fact the potential is there is something positive.

Luke Walton- He looks inept coaching this team. He looks dense and stubborn. He looks like he wants to drill a message into his players heads at the expense of winning perhaps using a vision of the "long road' outlook and consistent with what one of his previous coaches--Phil Jackson would do. He has the least potential in my mind of being part of any solution and he seems to alienate his players which is an odd characteristic for someone who is "laidback" and also a "players coach," but he does deserve credit for benching players when they dont produce and demanding more from them. Vlade echoed those comments in his interview saying basically he had to work on his deficiencies and he knew what they were.
Most people would criticize a coach for NOT having the guts to make those changes. Also, and it juat dawned on me, but perhaps Luke was letting Buddy play PG effectively allowing him to "do his thing," and then showing him with actual results why in fact playing him as a PG doesnt work. In fact to support that theory, he played very few minutes when he tried doing things that seemed outside of his skillset.

I am not endorsing that method of coaching nor am I saying it is effective at all, but most players, especially talented players would learn from those mistakes. He didnt and perhaps thats why several reports indicated Joeger wanted to trade Buddy.

In fact the more I saw Bogi play in the bubble and given his level of production it seems obvious why Vlade supported Bogi and Vivek still loves Buddy and perhaps that was a point of disagreement between them as well. Not that Buddy doesnt have talent---he does. He is an elite shooter. But perhaps Buddy who often cites his love for Kobe, perhaps still thinks he can do things like his mentor did. Its great to have that belief but it becomes kind of self defeating when the body of evidence supports the opposite. Maybe Buddy just cant accept being a star in his role.

Harry Giles is perhaps the most bitter pill to swallow. Beloved by Kings fan. He embodies everything Kings fans love in a player. He "gets" being a King and Sacramento. Now Vlade insists he was out of shape and Harry denies that. This is a tough one because I believe in Giles. But perhaps Divac also believed he was out of shape. It still does not excuse not picking up that option but does jive with what Walton does with Buddy. Their methods are unconventional but I see what they were trying to do. I just hope Harry finds it in his heart to stay bc he loves Sactown that much.

The descriptions he gives are of connection and many players who do connect with a particular team and its fans often struggle to ever find connections like that again. Im hoping that does weigh heavily in his decision.

Its unclear why the same principles were not applied to team defense and other things but they werent.

These are just some random thoughts but perhaps Dumars will have learned enough from before to make appreciable differences in the team and start a trend of winning again.
While I do not agree with all your points, I (as VF21 the fan) want to thank you for a well-reasoned thoughtful post.

Am I defensive about how Vlade is being pilloried by some around here? Yep. He left a lucrative life in Europe to come back to Sacramento the fans and team he has said repeatedly hold a big part of his heart. He tried his best but didn't succeed. That's why I highlighted your comment about Vlade and his convictions.

Thanks again.
 
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VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#47
And when you look at the 5 man advanced stats play style becomes clearer. Yet, there we went. Clueless substitution after substitution that weren't determined at all by injury for the most part. Even with injuries there were other options that should never have included Buddy as your backup PG. Joseph as your starting SG for a few games. Post ups to players that aren't really post up players. Motion offense that saw shots coming late in the clock. They went over the pace stats. While Joerger used an equally as wrong horns set in the half court and refused to play small (as Walton mostly did) at least he brought that pace up. It's easy to see the gross misuse here. And unfortunately the stats back it up. Murphy's Law gets you some brownie points but sometimes Murphy puts on a sports jacket, carries a dry erase board, and creates his own luck.
Yeah, and stats can prove just about anything you want them to if you manipulate them in the right way.

Coaching is about so much more than dry statistics. Is there a place for advances stats? Yep. Is it the end-all be-all? Nope. Not everything can or should be reduced to just numbers.

And, with that, I'll bow out of that particular conversation since we both know full well neither or us will budge from our respective takes. At the end of the day, it's still GO KINGS! :)
 
#48
That still doesn't make it "basically like year 2" in the NBA. That makes it a summer league stint.
Either way the perception was there was a lack of continuity from one portion to theother and therefore mentally it was an abbreviated version of all the emotions you would feel out of a season and the ones coming out of this one are clearly negative. First thing is first, they have to generate a positive perception with the players. If you are going to sweep out the room, you can't leave a little pile of leftovers in the corner. The job isn't done.
 
#50
Yeah, and stats can prove just about anything you want them to if you manipulate them in the right way.

Coaching is about so much more than dry statistics. Is there a place for advances stats? Yep. Is it the end-all be-all? Nope. Not everything can or should be reduced to just numbers.

And, with that, I'll bow out of that particular conversation since we both know full well neither or us will budge from our respective takes. At the end of the day, it's still GO KINGS! :)

That's fine, but in the end, history is the greatest benchmark. Vivek has already gone through a GM (PDA) sweep while holding on to the previous GM's boy (Karl) because it was a good coach. Didn't work then. Hey, maybe that mountain will move this time. haha. It's always possible but I wouldn't lay all your money out on that one. While there isn't a Cousins level personality involved I don't think, the same vibes are building up. You can see it. Little blurbs in the press are another sign. We've seen this same thing before. That's inarguable. If you're sweeping, you have to clean sweep in this scenario. What comes next may be worse but this type of situation typically goes nowhere anyway. Ah, I guess purgatory is nice this time of year. haha.
 
#51
While I do not agree with all your points, I (as VF21 the fan) want to thank you for a well-reasoned thoughtful post.

Am I defensive about how Vlade is being pilloried by some around here? Yep. He left a lucrative life in Europe to come back to Sacramento the fans and team he has said repeatedly hold a big part of his heart. He tried his best but didn't succeed. That's why I highlighted your comment about Vlade and his convictions.

Thanks again.
Vlade did have convictions even if they were controversial. Which parts did you not agree with out of curiosity?

BTW the GM to replace Vlade is Bobby Webster. Theres a story about him on the Athletic and how we works in terms of relationship building etc. He is very "low key" and is termed a "man of mystery" and was instrumental in finding Fred Van Vleet and then developing him. He also used his connections to trade for Kawhi Leonard. He is very low key outwardly and dismisses credit for those moves but others praise him as "being the guy" to make those things happen. He sounds a lot like the glory years version of Geoff Petrie except his talent evaluation in terms of drafting and "diamond in the rough players" is far better than Petrie's ever was.
He believes in the importance of collaboration and working relationships. After reading that article thats our guy---or at least he should be. He also seems to prefer not having the spotlight on him and living perhaps in a smaller market like Sac.
 
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VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#52
Vlade did have convictions even if they were controversial. Which parts did you not agree with out of curiosity?

BTW the GM to replace Vlade is Bobby Webster. Theres a story about him on the Athletic and how we works in terms of relationship building etc. He is very "low key" and is termed a "man of mystery" and was instrumental in finding Fred Van Vleet and then developing him. He also used his connections to trade for Kawhi Leonard. He is very low key outwardly and dismisses credit for those moves but others praise him as "being the guy" to make those things happen. He sounds a lot like the glory years version of Geoff Petrie except his talent evaluation in terms of drafting and "diamond in the rough players" is far better than Petrie's ever was.
He believes in the importance of collaboration and working relationships. After reading that article thats our guy---or at least he should be. He also seems to prefer not having the spotlight on him and living perhaps in a smaller market like Sac.
Primarily, I think Walton deserves a full season unmarred by things like a global pandemic to see what he can do with the squad.

Second, I'm still not convinced Giles is the player some thing he is ... or will be. I just don't think enough data is available to make that pronouncement. I'd like to see him stay but I won't be crying in my Fireball if it doesn't happen.

Webster sounds interesting. Unfortunately for us, I'm not sure TPTB that will be making the decision would find him shiny enough if you catch my drift. As Section 101 alluded to earlier, we still have a COO who seems to have her fingers in every decision and I don't know how she'd feel about someone who "believes in the importance of collaboration and working relationships." Our Ms. MK seems to believe in back-room deals, and other things I will not get into here. :(
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#54
Maybe after 22 years with the Kings and now the COO Matina Kolokotronis deserves some of the blame for the Kings dysfunction?

Link---> https://www.si.com/nba/2018/05/11/sacaramento-kings-matina-kolokotronis-mothers-day-testimony

Link---> https://www.comstocksmag.com/article/working-lunch-matina-kolokotronis
While I have issues with Matina, I hardly think she’s responsible for Luke randomly deciding to die on “starting two traditional bigs like it’s 1993” hill for some reason.
 
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#55
It was clearly stated in Sam Amick's collumn that Vivic wanted Vlade to take a lesser role under Dumars and Vlade refused and stepped down. Do you get some thrill out of believing he was fired? As for Peja, it't no surprise that he would step down with Vlade gone.
My understanding is the same as yours.

I suppose people can read into the situation what they want. By imposing the new roles, some may interpret that as forcing Vlade’s hand.

Regardless, the facts presented to us via the media seem to be that Vlade stepped down and was not fired. Same seems to be the case for Peja.

Speculating beyond that is just that .... speculation.
 
#56
While I have issues with Marina, I hardly think she’s responsible for Luke randomly deciding to die on “starting two traditional bigs like it’s 1993” hill for some reason.
She’s actually part of the poisoned culture that remained from the Magoof era. I’m with @King Baller in hoping she goes too.

Luke has made lots of mistakes, but playing a true center was far from one of the reasons this team underachieved.
 
#57
While I have issues with Marina, I hardly think she’s responsible for Luke randomly deciding to die on “starting two traditional bigs like it’s 1993” hill for some reason.
To be honest I don't know. Which is why I posed the question. Other people know stuff:)

I mean I always saw her talking to Peja. Maybe the conversation went, "You know Walton really should play only one Big and do more ball screens."
 
#58
She’s actually part of the poisoned culture that remained from the Magoof era. I’m with @King Baller in hoping she goes too.

Luke has made lots of mistakes, but playing a true center was far from one of the reasons this team underachieved.
One of them and one that the advanced stats laid out as a major problem ALL YEAR. I've posted the links all throughout the season. Almost every traditional lineup Luke ran was a net negative. Almost every single positive was a small one, usually with Buddy Hield in it. It wasn't playing a true center per se, it was playing traditional ball and not spreading the court so you could maximize the supposed focus of your offense. Playing Joseph on players 5 inches taller than him alone looks really bad after the way Luka just embarrassed him. Luke even in the bubble was talking about playing small then for the first chunk of games dug himself a hole with his typical traditional ways. Say one thing, do another. He can't be trusted and the players know it. If what someone posted from Fox's post game comments were legit, then that's pretty much what he alluded to. They didn't know what they were doing from one game to the next. Surprised they **** the bed the way they did? Nah.

This Brett Brown thing is very interesting. His system is very similar to Waltons. They run a lot of horns and single pin downs and screen sets that clogs the paint. He's also fighting the light and noise that he should play more shooters next to Embiid, so he's likely on his way to a similar coaching bump in the road. I don't know about Brown but I'd bet Luke is down to one tire so he couldn't afford to hit those bumps.