Peja just hit a game winning 3...

[VF21]

I don't know what the big surprise is. Set Peja a good screen to get him open and he has a good chance of hitting a shot no matter when in the game it is. Bury him in the corner, set weak screens, or just make him get a shot off by himself and he fails. What is the big surprise?

All this Peja is a choker talk stems from the airball and his disappearing act in the 4th. That comes from two areas, Peja hiding in the corner and Adelman forgetting he was alive. Calling him one of the worst chokers in the league is an extreme exaggeration and requires a selective memory to make that case. He and Bibby were the only ones doing a single thing in the 4th quarter of Game 5 vs. Seattle and I remember someone dismissing that as simply too little too late for his reputation

Peja's game took a significant downturn for a variety of reasons. Among the reasons cited by fans are Webber's return to the lineup too soon, Vlade's departure from the team, Peja's trade demand/request, etc. All of those might have been factors; on the other hand, it might have been just burnout and exhaustion. We who aren't privy to all secret things probably won't ever know.

What's obvious, however, is that the bloom was indeed off the rose because the Maloofs and Petrie pulled the trigger that sent the player who was once Petrie's favorite "son" to Indiana.

Peja did simply fade away towards the end of a number of games. It's indisputable. Was it because Adelman ignored him? Or was it because Adelman ignored him because Peja just wasn't into the game? We don't know. The results, however, were that Peja was no longer a viable option.

He missed the passing big men - BOTH Webber and Vlade. Perhaps too much pressure was put on him. He doesn't have the hunger or the killer instinct and he's not a leader. At times, the Kings and more so the fans wanted him to be all things.

It was a lot more than one airball.

 

[Kevin's Good Feet]

I thought we were talking about Peja's reputation for being a late-game choker, not his struggles with the Kings the previous season

 

[Padrino]

i've hardly ever been some sort of "peja-apologist," but the man deserves credit for an incredible feat. yes, he hit the game winning shot, but it seems y'all overlooked his entire performance from last night:

Stojakovic feat historic
Sunday, November 19, 2006
John Reid

OKLAHOMA CITY -- The NBA has been in existence since 1946, and Hornets guard Peja Stojakovic accomplished something not even Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Magic Johnson or Larry Bird achieved.
Advertisement

Stojakovic became the first NBA player to start a game off by scoring 20 consecutive points, which occurred in Tuesday night's 94-85 victory against the Charlotte Bobcats.

After several days of checking, Hornets spokesman Scott Hall said Friday the Elias Sports Bureau, the official statistician for the NBA, confirmed the record.

Stojakovic ended the game with a career-high 42 points. He made his first seven shots to outscore the entire Bobcats team, 20-19. He finished the first quarter with a franchise-record 22 points, making all four 3-point shots.

"I got going, and the guys kept looking for me," Stojakovic said. "When you're a shooter, you just keep shooting when you miss. I don't worry about individual stats."

The Hornets signed Stojakovic to a five-year, $64 million contract this summer, and it appears to be money well spent. Although he went through a stretch making 22 of 66 shots during the first five games, it's his presence on the court that keeps a defender's attention because of his reputation as a shooter.

After watching his team struggle to defend him, Charlotte Bobcats Coach Bernie Bickerstaff said Stojakovic was unstoppable.

"He banked one in with us all over him and the clock winding down," Bickerstaff said. "Chris (Paul) got the ball to the man with the hot hand."

Stojakovic made 15 of 22 shots, five 3-pointers and seven of eight free throws. He scored 23 of the Hornets' 55 points in the first half and closed out the game with an 11-point fourth quarter.

"When I push the ball on the break, my first option is to hit him in transition," Paul said. "Even on nights when he doesn't have 42, he still is a huge presence for us. He makes so many things happen out there. Teams always have to respect him. If he misses four shots in a row and we throw it to him again, I expect for it to go in."

Stojakovic, a 6-foot-10 guard, may never have a first quarter like what he achieved Tuesday. But Stojakovic's biggest contribution likely will come in late February and March when the Hornets are in the playoff race and he's able to come through in the fourth quarter with clutch shooting.

PARITY? Denver, Detroit, Phoenix and Miami all won their divisions last season with more than 43 wins. The Heat won its first NBA championship behind Shaquille O'Neal and Dwyane Wade. The Pistons won a league-best 64 games, and the Suns finished with the second-best record in the Western Conference at 54-28. Three weeks into the 2006-07 season, all four teams have struggled with losing records.

"The last couple of games, we've had no aggression at all offensively," Detroit Coach Flip Saunders said after watching his team lose five of their first nine games. "I want to at least see guys be aggressive."

Denver started the season with three straight losses and entered Saturday with a 3-4 record. The Suns entered Saturday at 3-5.

The Heat (3-5) has lost three home games by more than 22 points each, including Friday night when they were routed by the New York Knicks 100-76.

"I can't explain this at all," Heat Coach Pat Riley told reporters after the game. "I can't remember this in the 11 years I've been here, getting beat so badly at home with a good team. We're not defending. We're not playing hard enough. We're surely not scoring. Right now, it doesn't look good at all."

The Heat announced before the game that O'Neal will undergo knee surgery and will be out up to six weeks. He tore cartilage in his left knee after colliding with Houston's Chuck Hayes last week.

Most of the weaker teams have improved through free agency and trades, while teams such as the Heat made no moves thinking they could win as a year ago with the same players. It's still early, but the league is overall stronger.

HORNETS: Is the buzz for the Hornets declining in Oklahoma City? Last week, a crowd of 16,623 showed up at the Ford Center for a game against the Bobcats. It was the second-smallest crowd at the 19,163-seat facility since January, when 14,554 attended a game against the Memphis Grizzlies.

On Nov. 7, when the Hornets played their first game of the season at the Ford Center, it was announced as a sellout crowd of 19,164, but there were several empty seats in the upper level. Hornets officials said the Hornets have more than 12,000 season-ticket holders in Oklahoma, an increase from last season. The Hornets play the Miami Heat at the Ford Center on Tuesday night, and a sellout is expected.

BARKLEY COMING: When the Hornets return to New Orleans to play San Antonio on Dec. 14, the game will be televised on TNT. The cable network also plans to conduct its NBA studio show with Ernie Johnson, Charles Barkley and Kenny Smith that night from New Orleans.

In February, Barkley said New Orleans was not in any position to have sporting events. He also said he didn't understand why the Saints were trying to come back there, especially next year.

A month after his comments, the Hornets sold out two of the three games played at New Orleans Arena. This fall, the Saints sold out every seat at the Superdome by season-ticket holders before the season started.

Unlike Barkley, Smith has been in New Orleans several times to help residents affected by Hurricane Katrina. In September, Smith was in Chalmette helping to pass out food boxes to needy families.

BULLS: Former Hornets forward P.J. Brown lost his starting job last week to Andres Nocioni. The Bulls have lost four of their past five games, and Coach Scott Skiles said he was searching for a more productive lineup to help them break the slide. Against Houston on Thursday, Brown played only 13 minutes and scored two points.

WARRIORS: Baron Davis is giving All-Star-caliber performances. The Warriors have won five of their past six games, and Davis is averaging 22.1 points, 9.0 assists, 4.1 rebounds and 2.23 rebounds. The question always concerning Davis is can he keep it going for the entire season, especially after the All-Star break?

GRIZZLIES: In an attempt to save his job, Grizzlies Coach Mike Fratello has instructed his guards to push the ball in the open court to help increase the team's scoring. The Grizzlies scored more than 100 points in their past two games going into Saturday, but they still had the league's worst record at 1-7. Last week, Grizzlies majority owner Michael Heisley said he wants the team to run more.

. . . . . . .

John Reid can be reached at jreid@timespicayune.com or at (504) 232-3013.

http://www.nola.com/hornets/t-p/index.ssf?/base/sports-2/116392434376780.xml&coll=1

 

[VF21]

I thought we were talking about Peja's reputation for being a late-game choker, not his struggles with the Kings the previous season

It seemed to me the two were becoming intertwined. I recall more than one game where Peja started out strong but then faded as the game progressed. In fact, I even had a rule about it at one time: VF21's First Rule of Peja Basketball. It said something along the lines that Peja will only have one good half; if he dogs in the first, chances are good he'll come to life in the second. BUT if he lights it up in the first half, there's a better than even chance he'll be MIA when we need him the most. That rule was based on someone who watched every Kings game - with the exception of maybe one or two I missed because of snow storms or power outages. It wasn't just one game when Peja choked.

Regardless, that's all in the past. He's productive again in New Orleans. I'm very happy for him. And I'm pretty pleased with the guy we got in trade for him. As I said earlier, the only people who really got the short end of the stick on the Peja-Artest deal were the Pacers.

 

[Bricklayer]

Actually, I don't remember ever calling Brick a player basher, but since I got called a playerbasher for saying Webber was "acting like a crybaby" I thought maybe I'd call a spade a spade. Or is it just bashing when you criticize Webber?



Whenever you're at loss to refute a point with stats or any sort of concrete response do you always just resort to insulting people or distorting their position? I was advocating trading Peja all of last year, I have no great love for him as a player, but I'm also a big fan of setting the record striaght. Calling Peja the biggest choker in the league, as you did, is ridiculous. His clutch stats are perfectly respectable -- and do pray tell how are those stats are selective. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, rather than your insults.

Peja didn't take many game winning shots because, for better or worse, the ball went to Webber and Bibby. uolj is exactly right, in my opinion. Peja just never had an opportunity to shed his image (for taking a shot, by the way, on a severely sprained ankle -- yeah, never played injured). Now he's taking -- and making -- the shots he never was asked to take with the Kings.

I simply don't have the time for your silly contrariness nbrans.

Here is how the deconstruction of your little selective stats would go:

a) compare Peja's overall stats in those years to his 4th quarter stats
b) note that the ONLY year his stats don't go backward "in the clutch" is 03-04, his big year. (Or possibly Vlade's big year)
c) how about this? Don't even get selective in our years. Find those stats, if they exist, for the rest of his career. Again, compare each year ot his overall stats. If you shoot 50% through three quarters and 43% in the clutch...
d) Challenge your rather random choice of clutch stats
e) introduce the playoff stats of course

But that's a ****load of work, and for very little gain. Apologists aside, the point is considered more or less proven for 90% of fans of the NBA.

P.S. As an aside, I consider this whole commentary more than a little ironic given that it would I who was calling for Peja to have a big year htis year while I seem to recall you, contrary to the end, were arguing that he was through.

 

[Kevin's Good Feet]

Apologists aside, the point is considered more or less proven for 90% of fans of the NBA.

90% of all NBA fans believe Peja is one of the worst clutch performers in the NBA?

Not only do I not believe this number, but what does it prove? 90% of all NBA fans believe that Webber is one of the most unclutch performers as well, and you just made an argument that he turned things around

 

[Bricklayer]

Regardless, that's all in the past. He's productive again in New Orleans.

Well that's the interesting thing about this so far -- he has NOT been very productive in New Orleans. Maybe the 40pt game will set him off, but basically he's only reached 20pts in 2 games, has been held to 11, is shooting 44%, only grabbing 4rebs, even his FT shootign is off (79%). Its not like he's having a breakout season so far. In fact a very disappointing one given that contract. But he HAS hit some big shots for them. Can't take that away from him.

 

[VF21]

He is productive right now, which is what I was saying. Maybe it took this long for him to get his confidence back, maybe it's the "6'10" guard" moniker, maybe it's the alignment of the planets, or maybe - just maybe - it's because he doesn't have the pressure.

I was just finding a way to bow out of the thread. I'm happy for Peja, I wish him all the luck in the world. And, I'm glad we have Artest.

 

[Bricklayer]

90% of all NBA fans believe Peja is one of the worst clutch performers in the NBA?

Not only do I not believe this number,

Try discussing Peja on a board for any other team. See what they think.

Which "proves" nothing, other than that exerting myself to prove that the earth is round to a member of the Flat Earth Society is largely a waste of time and effort. It is what it is.

 

[Kevin's Good Feet]

Try discussing Peja on a board for any other team. See what they think.

Which "proves" nothing, other than that exerting myself to prove that the earth is round to a member of the Flat Earth Society is largely a waste of time and effort. It is what it is.

Again, discuss Webber on a board for any other team and you'll pull up the same argument. Same with Doug Christie. Are you going to argue that they are wrong? Because you just made the argument that Webber turned it around so either you or other message boards must be wrong in this regard

Saying "it is what it is" in no way makes your opinion fact. Is Peja a player that had problems consistenly producing in the clutch? Most definetly. But saying he is one of the worst clutch players in the league is opinion

Also, your choice of analogy is amusing considering a large majority of people once believed the Earth was flat, so they must be correct

 

[Bricklayer]

maybe it's the "6'10" guard" moniker,

That one still puzzles me -- you have Desmond Mason and Peja Stojakovic together, and you choose to play PEJA as the a guard? Huh? Mason is a swingman so...? But while neither of those guys is doing great so far, they are winning, so guess whatever floats their boat.

 

[Bricklayer]

Again, discuss Webber on a board for any other team and you'll pull up the same argument. Same with Doug Christie. Are you going to argue that they are wrong? Because you just made the argument that Webber turned it around so either you or other message boards must be wrong in this regard

Saying "it is what it is" in no way makes your opinion fact. Is Peja a player that had problems consistenly producing in the clutch? Most definetly. But saying he is one of the worst clutch players in the league is opinion

But saying that he WAS is opinion backed up by a pile of evidence.

You will note I did not say that he necessarily IS, because the book is still open, just as it was with Webb.

And by the way before 01-02 Webb WAS very shaky in the clutch. That year, that responsibility of the big contract/franchise tag/coming so close changed things. Made him feel responsible for the team and settle in I suspect.

And yes Doug Christie DID choke. Admitted as much.

And so did Peja.

 

[nbrans]

I simply don't have the time for your silly contrariness nbrans.

Here is how the deconstruction of your little selective stats would go:

a) compare Peja's overall stats in those years to his 4th quarter stats
b) note that the ONLY year his stats don't go backward "in the clutch" is 03-04, his big year. (Or possibly Vlade's big year)
c) how about this? Don't even get selective in our years. Find those stats, if they exist, for the rest of his career. Again, compare each year ot his overall stats. If you shoot 50% through three quarters and 43% in the clutch...
d) Challenge your rather random choice of clutch stats
e) introduce the playoff stats of course

But that's a ****load of work, and for very little gain. Apologists aside, the point is considered more or less proven for 90% of fans of the NBA.

P.S. As an aside, I consider this whole commentary more than a little ironic given that it would I who was calling for Peja to have a big year htis year while I seem to recall you, contrary to the end, were arguing that he was through.

Ok, so, you're saying Peja Stojakovic is the biggest choker in the league.

I'm not even saying Peja is particularly clutch, just that he wasn't bad and never took gamewinners.

Let's examine some of those stats that you outline in your post above and see what we find.

a) compare Peja's overall stats in those years to his 4th quarter stats

Let's widen to include Webber, not because I want to get into a Webber vs. Bibby vs. Peja thing, but just because they were the three leading scorers.

2002/2003:
REGULAR SEASON
Peja: 27.0 points per 48, 48% shooting
Bibby: 22.9 points per 48, 47% shooting
Webber: 28.2 points per 48, 46% shooting
CLUTCH:
Peja: 23.9 points per 48, 43% shooting
Bibby: 15.9 points per 48, 47% shooting
Webber: 30.5 points per 48, 47% shooting
DIFFERENCE:
Peja: -4.1 points, -5% shooting
Bibby: -7.0 points, 0% shooting
Webber: +2.3 points, +1% shooting

2003/2004:
REGULAR SEASON:
Peja: 28.9 points per 48, 48% shooting
Bibby: 24.3 points per 48, 45% shooting
Webber: 24.8 points per 48, 41% shooting
CLUTCH:
Peja: 30.8 points per 48, 47% shooting
Bibby: 28.7 points per 48, 37% shooting
Webber: 19.0 points per 48, 24% shooting
DIFFERENCE:
Peja: +1.9 points, -1% shooting
Bibby: +4.4 points, -8% shooting
Webber: -5.8 points, -17% shooting

2004/2005:
REGULAR SEASON:
Peja: 25.2 points per 48, 44% shooting
Bibby: 24.5 points per 48, 44% shooting
Webber: 28.1 points per 48, 45% shooting
CLUTCH:
Peja: 19.6 points per 48, 27% shooting
Bibby: 23.8 points per 48, 42% shooting
Webber: 30.7 points per 48, 39% shooting
DIFFERENCE:
Peja: -5.6 points, -17% shooting
Bibby: -0.7 points, -2% shooting
Webber: +2.6 points, -6% shooting

What does this tell you? NOT MUCH. When you take these three years as a whole Peja's numbers don't look drastically different than Webber's and Bibby's. I certainly don't see evidence that Peja is the biggest choker in the NBA. (Your burden is proof is higher.)

b) note that the ONLY year his stats don't go backward "in the clutch" is 03-04, his big year. (Or possibly Vlade's big year)

Taken as a whole, so does everyone else's.

c) how about this? Don't even get selective in our years. Find those stats, if they exist, for the rest of his career. Again, compare each year ot his overall stats. If you shoot 50% through three quarters and 43% in the clutch...

As far as I know these stats don't exist.

d) Challenge your rather random choice of clutch stats

How are they random? 4th Quarters/overtimes in close games. Pretty basic.

e) introduce the playoff stats of course

Yes, let's.

(82games.com doesn't have postseason stats for 02/03, sorry, but Webber was injured anyway. Also Webber wasn't with the Kings in 04/05 and Bibby's clutch stats are messed up in 04/05 -- there weren't many close games in that Seattle series)

2003/2004
POSTSEASON CLUTCH:
Peja: 32.2 points per 48, 60% shooting
Bibby: 36.5 points per 48, 40% shooting
Webber: 14.2 points per 48, 33% shooting

Or maybe you just mean playoff stats overall?

(I'm not including 01/02 here because Peja was injured and it skews the stats, although BIG CAVEAT that it was definitely a great playoff year for Peja and Webber)

2002/2003
REGULAR SEASON
Peja: 19.2 points, 48% shooting
Bibby: 15.9 points, 47% shooting
Webber: 23.0 points, 46% shooting (injured)
PLAYOFFS
Peja: 23.7 points, 48% shooting
Bibby: 12.7 points, 42% shooting
Webber: 23.7 points, 50% shooting
DIFFERENCE:
Peja: +4.5 points, 0% shooting
Bibby: -3.2 points, -5% shooting
Webber: +.7 points, +4% shooting

2003/2004:
REGULAR SEASON
Peja: 24.2 points, 48% shooting
Bibby: 18.4 points, 45% shooting
Webber: 18.7 points, 41% shooting
PLAYOFFS
Peja: 17.5 points, 39% shooting
Bibby: 20.0 points, 43% shooting
Webber: 18.4 points, 45% shooting
DIFFERENCE:
Peja: -7.3 points, -9% shooting
Bibby: +1.6 points, -2% shooting
Webber: +0.3 points, +4% shooting

2004/2005
REGULAR SEASON
Peja: 20.1 points, 44% shooting
Bibby: 19.6 points, 44% shooting
Webber (combined): 19.5 points, 43% shooting
PLAYOFFS
Peja: 22 points, 47% shooting
Bibby: 19.6 points, 39% shooting
Webber (with Philly): 19.0 points, 41% shooting
DIFFERENCE:
Peja: +1.9 points, +3% shooting
Bibby: 0 points, -5% shooting
Webber: +0.5 points, -2% shooting

Let's add up the point difference in the playoffs between 2002-2005:
Peja: -0.9 points in playoffs
Bibby: -1.6 points in playoffs
Webber: +1.5 points in playoffs

So... I would respectfully disagree that Peja is a postseason choker.

As for your PS, all I said in the preseason was that Peja would be Peja. I, in turn, would disagree with your prediction about Peja's big year. Peja is still averaging only 17.9 points per game, which isn't exactly a rejuvination by his standards, especially given that he averaged 19.5 when he played for the Pacers. So, I stand by my prediction.

 

[bozzwell]

But saying that he WAS is opinion backed up by a pile of evidence.

You will note I did not say that he necessarily IS, because the book is still open, just as it was with Webb.

And by the way before 01-02 Webb WAS very shaky in the clutch. That year, that responsibility of the big contract/franchise tag/coming so close changed things. Made him feel responsible for the team and settle in I suspect.

And yes Doug Christie DID choke. Admitted as much.

And so did Peja.

Pedja admitted as much too (to Serbian reporters), although not as explicitly as DC did. Word "choke" was not used, but it is pretty much the same thing.

All the seriousness and hard stats/analysis aside, maybe we just didn't pay Pedja enough. Maybe with Pedja you get 3/4 only for 8 mil a year and you have to go max to see the "Clutch Pedja"... He will even throw a wax job in for good measure. )

 

[AleksandarN]

Why are we even argueing this again. Neither player is on the Kings anymore. I am sick of it. Both of them moved on why can't we? Pedja is my second favourite player in this league but you do not see me posting much about him and Webber. Why can't fans of Webber and Pedja do the same. Personally I rather talk about Kevin Martin then rehash the same arguement we had over the last 4 years.

 

[nbrans]

Why are we even argueing this again. Neither player is on the Kings anymore. I am sick of it. Both of them moved on why can't we? Pedja is my second favourite player in this league but you do not see me posting much about him and Webber. Why can't fans of Webber and Pedja do the same. Personally I rather talk about Kevin Martin then rehash the same arguement we had over the last 4 years.

I guess you're not as bored this afternoon as I am.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Why are we even argueing this again. Neither player is on the Kings anymore. I am sick of it. Both of them moved on why can't we? Pedja is my second favourite player in this league but you do not see me posting much about him and Webber. Why can't fans of Webber and Pedja do the same. Personally I rather talk about Kevin Martin then rehash the same arguement we had over the last 4 years.

I don't mean to sound like an ***, but that's a "you" problem... This is a sports message board and, as sports message boards go, this one is really pretty mild in terms of not letting the past go. At least Webber and Stojakovic are still active; I've visited sports message board where posters still have heated discussions about events LONG passed, and players long since retired... Go read a Red Sox or Cubs message board, and then come back here and say that Kings Fans have a problem with letting **** go.

When people no longer want to talk about this subject, then threads will die just as quickly as they start. Until such time as people are no longer interested in talking about it, they shall be allowed to; there's no requirement for you to read every thread on the board.

 

[AleksandarN]

I don't mean to sound like an ***, but that's a "you" problem... This is a sports message board and, as sports message boards go, this one is really pretty mild in terms of not letting the past go. At least Webber and Stojakovic are still active; I've visited sports message board where posters still have heated discussions about events LONG passed, and players long since retired... Go read a Red Sox or Cubs message board, and then come back here and say that Kings Fans have a problem with letting **** go.

When people no longer want to talk about this subject, then threads will die just as quickly as they start. Until such time as people are no longer interested in talking about it, they shall be allowed to; there's no requirement for you to read every thread on the board.

SORRY. I just see the same arguement over and over again. I will not post again on this subject but I do have a right to say what is on my mind
(like every one in this tread). I thought maybe from me stating the obvious then maybe we will not get sucked into the loop of Pedja vs. Webber. It never ends well. I did not tell people not post in this thread. This thread did not start off with a Pedja vs. Webb agruement but it is ending up like it. See what i mean.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I do, in fact, see what you mean, AleksandarN, but the fact of the matter is that there are still too many hard feelings, on both sides. People are going to talk about it, whether we like it or not, and telling them that they need to let it go just isn't going to work.

As long as posters don't insult other posters, if they want to keep bringing this up, then they can. And it was somewhat on topic, even if just barely. As long as it doesn't come up randomly in topics not related to either player, then we're not going tell people that they're not allowed to talk about it.

 

[KP]

Why are we all quoting sterile stats to each other when we have all watched every minute of almost every game for the last five years?? Everyone involved in this discussion is a knowledgable long time poster,and everyone involved in this discussion can rate those three players from 1 to 3 in terms of their willingness to take the clutch shot and their ability to hit them... It's not even hard.

As far as the Hornets go... aquiring Peja(and Bobby for that matter) at least so far, looks like it was a Great move for them. So far this season they look much improved and they look like they will be around for awhile, and come playoff time they will need to be reckoned with. They also said from the begining that they wanted Peja to be there to stretch the defense and hit the long ball at the end of games, Peja also said he wanted the role, and now he's stepping up and doing it. Peja is a very good player he's going to help them (especially in the regular season), he is very efficient offensively and his production is killer. Maybe if he can build this confidence now on last second shots it will spill over into the postseason, finally. But any serious Kings fan(and Pacers fan now) knows what the real chances of that are. I hope he can overcome it and come through, Peja was a great player for my favourite team of all time.

 

[Bricklayer]

can rate those three players from 1 to 3 in terms of their willingness to take the clutch shot and their ability to hit them... It's not even hard.

Actually an important little nuance often lost -- players who are chokers often a) run from the shot; and b) nobody wants to give it to them. And if you;ve ever played a team sport, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Some guys when the game is on the line start going at twice the speed, busting their *** to get that shot. They want it, demand it. Others will take it if it comes. And then there are those who find ways NOT to take the shot. They make the "smart" pass to another player, are a step slower off the pick, a tad slower, point to the other player to take it etc. Its a common syndrome. Being scared is part and parcel of being a choker and being soft. And it piles up -- each failure or sweaty palms late adding up, erodign the confidence more.

 

[piksi]

Peja was a great player for my favourite team of all time.

this is pretty much all it needs to be said

 

[nbrans]

Why are we all quoting sterile stats to each other when we have all watched every minute of almost every game for the last five years?? Everyone involved in this discussion is a knowledgable long time poster,and everyone involved in this discussion can rate those three players from 1 to 3 in terms of their willingness to take the clutch shot and their ability to hit them... It's not even hard.

As far as the Hornets go... aquiring Peja(and Bobby for that matter) at least so far, looks like it was a Great move for them. So far this season they look much improved and they look like they will be around for awhile, and come playoff time they will need to be reckoned with. They also said from the begining that they wanted Peja to be there to stretch the defense and hit the long ball at the end of games, Peja also said he wanted the role, and now he's stepping up and doing it. Peja is a very good player he's going to help them (especially in the regular season), he is very efficient offensively and his production is killer. Maybe if he can build this confidence now on last second shots it will spill over into the postseason, finally. But any serious Kings fan(and Pacers fan now) knows what the real chances of that are. I hope he can overcome it and come through, Peja was a great player for my favourite team of all time.

I'm sure you and I and Bricklayer would have exactly the same list of 1-3. I'm not trying to say Peja is 1 or 2. That just wasn't the point that was being made and it wasn't the point that I was trying to refute. I would just say that Peja's sudden clutchness isn't sudden. He's just being asked to perform a role that he wasn't in the past. Maybe he wasn't asked because he wasn't the right guy or maybe he always had it in him.

I do think the stats are important because there are times when a player can acquire a reputation and that reputation can be hard to shake. Peja airballs a three on a bad ankle, then he has a bad 4th Quarter, then people start looking to all of his performances for confirmation that he's not clutch, even if he's doing an acceptable job. Sometimes stats are needed to keep a clear head about things -- that's all I was trying to do.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Seriously!!! Where was this Peja before?!?!

Peja had a FEW clutch performances as a King...its just that they were so few and far between they werent as memorable. No buzzer-beaters, though.

 

[ParniValjak]

Peja had a FEW clutch performances as a King...its just that they were so few and far between they werent as memorable. No buzzer-beaters, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfOaHgWKjXs

 

[sloter]

Just another normal day at WebberFans.com

 

[uolj]

Just another normal day at WebberFans.com

What a dumb place for that statement. Webber has received the same criticisms in this thread as Stojakovic, by the same people. This is a good and interesting conversation going on. That statement is totally irrelevant and out of place here.

 

[4cwebb]

Joining this discussion really late, the difference that I have noted about Peja when I check in on Hornets games is that, other than the other night where he scored the first 20 points, he has not started off the majority of his games in a Hornets' uniform particularly well, but he has finished games very well (at least shooting the ball).

This to me seems to be quite the reversal from Peja as a Sacramento King --- he would hit shots with ease in the first three quarters, or even the first three and one-half quarters, but could not seem to knock down those "nail in the coffin" type shots...my most vivid memory is from the series against Dallas when CWebb went down in game 2. In Game 3 Peja and the team came out on fire, matching Dallas shot for shot and taking the game to the Mavericks in a spirited effort. Near the end of the 4th quarter (I can't recall if the game went to OT or not), the Kings were up a basket (or may be even 3 points), they get a stop on defense and a semi-break going the other way...Peja gets an uncontested three pointer off of that semi-break from the top of key area, and I remember thinking that if he hit that shot it could potentially carry the Kings to a relatively shocking victory, but he didn't hit the shot, and the Mavs ended up winning the game. Peja probably had 37 points or so in that game (if I remember correctly, and I may be completely off), but he just was not able to hit the shot that put the game out of reach.

Contrast that scenario with his play this year, where he's starting off games 1-7, or he'll only have made 3-11 shots midway through the 4th quarter and have 11 points, but as we can guess from Chris Paul's comments to the media, the Hornets aren't going to stop feeding him the ball, and so he has come up with some big shots to this point. Good for him, and good for him that he's playing with a player who believes in his abilities no matter how many shots that he has missed up to that point. That, as much as anything, is probably something Peja hasn't been a beneficiary of since Vlade retired.

 

[uolj]

Joining this discussion really late, the difference that I have noted about Peja when I check in on Hornets games is that, other than the other night where he scored the first 20 points, he has not started off the majority of his games in a Hornets' uniform particularly well, but he has finished games very well (at least shooting the ball).

This to me seems to be quite the reversal from Peja as a Sacramento King --- he would hit shots with ease in the first three quarters, or even the first three and one-half quarters, but could not seem to knock down those "nail in the coffin" type shots...my most vivid memory is from the series against Dallas when CWebb went down in game 2. In Game 3 Peja and the team came out on fire, matching Dallas shot for shot and taking the game to the Mavericks in a spirited effort. Near the end of the 4th quarter (I can't recall if the game went to OT or not), the Kings were up a basket (or may be even 3 points), they get a stop on defense and a semi-break going the other way...Peja gets an uncontested three pointer off of that semi-break from the top of key area, and I remember thinking that if he hit that shot it could potentially carry the Kings to a relatively shocking victory, but he didn't hit the shot, and the Mavs ended up winning the game. Peja probably had 37 points or so in that game (if I remember correctly, and I may be completely off), but he just was not able to hit the shot that put the game out of reach.

Contrast that scenario with his play this year, where he's starting off games 1-7, or he'll only have made 3-11 shots midway through the 4th quarter and have 11 points, but as we can guess from Chris Paul's comments to the media, the Hornets aren't going to stop feeding him the ball, and so he has come up with some big shots to this point. Good for him, and good for him that he's playing with a player who believes in his abilities no matter how many shots that he has missed up to that point. That, as much as anything, is probably something Peja hasn't been a beneficiary of since Vlade retired.

My memory is a little different. For a long time there Stojakovic often seemed to do well in one half or the other, but it just as well could have been the first as the second. I think that in his last couple years with the Kings, Webber and Bibby really took over the crunch time offense. While I am not blaming them (Stojakovic could have done something about it if he wanted to, in my opinion), I think that was the biggest reason that he started to disappear in the fourth quarter. His "fault" was in being passive late in games, not choking.

And I remember the game he scored a ton of points against Dallas, and I remember that he hit everything to keep the Kings in the game except the one that could have won it. I also remember the game against the Timberwolves when he hit a bunch of shots, including a last second one to tie it. So he has done both. In neither situation was he a choker, he just got/took the opportunity and did what he normally does.

And now, with some experience under his belt and an opportunity to take crunch time shots, he is just doing what he already does. Exactly what I'd expect from someone who isn't exactly clutch, but isn't a choker either.

 

[coolhandluke]

Peja was never developed as a clutch player. Some people may say that you are born with "clutchness" but it is one of those things that you learn by going through the fire. Webber was a notorious choker, but later developed into a reasonable option at crunchtime. Even Kobe Bryant was ridiculed early in his career for THAT airball against the Utah Jazz in Game 5 of WC semifinals. It's all about reinforcing your confidence when you make clutch shots after having the guts to take them in the place. Being put in such a position by Bryon Scott helps too. Once you hit a few, you are on a roll. Peja can develop into a good option with the clock winding down but his "ceiling" will always be limited until he learns to create his own shot effectively or at least develop enough savvy to achieve seperation a la Reggie.