Our SF situation and who should start.

[rainmaker]

From Derrick Williams twitter. i guess he knows the starting lineup LOL

Bring on gimmick ball.

Some will love it. Others will see right through it.

I foresee a few disagreements around here...

This could however ensure we keep our pick.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

Bring on gimmick ball.

care to elaborate?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

a.k.a. "Nellie ball," a.k.a. small ball.

 

[Glenn]

The kind of ball a substantial number of people think is fun during the season but loses in the post-season.

 

[KingMilz]

Can Rudy Gay fill in @ SG? I know he's a bit slower than most but Gordan Hayward has played it reasonably well and he's a similar sort of athlete, instead of Thronton replacing Mclemore can we slide Gay down so we can maximise Williams playing time cause when Landry comes back and if Williams is not starting that could cut badly into him playing time and I want him to develop.

Maybe we try move Landry who we should have never signed in the first place when he's healthy (if its not to late cause of trade deadline).

Note: We should still play Ben Mac 30+mins a night @ SG at least

 

[rainmaker]

care to elaborate?

It doesn't win when it counts. It's a style used to generate excitement in the short term but is not a blueprint for success 2, 3 or 4 years down the road. Hence, a gimmick.

I'm 100% against building on a style which doesn't win in the playoffs. Makes no sense to me. What makes sense is building on a style which does win in the playoffs. Why build towards a false strategy which doesn't win? Add to that Cuz is built for more of a halfcourt, grind it out style which does win in the playoffs, playing gimmick ball sidetracks us from our goal or at least what should be our goal.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

Does going with D-Will at the 4 instead of JT really make that much of a difference to classify the team Small-ball? we do have a legit 6'9 SF now. i mean is it that big of a difference? people seem to be overreacting a bit here.

D-Will is 6'9" 248.

David Lee 6'9" 240
Griffin 6'10" 248
David West 6'9" 255
Aldridge 6'11 240 and plays on perimiter
Randolph 6'9" 260
Love 6'10" 243
Favors 6'10" 245

 

[HereWeBoogie]

I'm 100% against building on a style which doesn't win in the playoffs. Makes no sense to me. What makes sense is building on a style which does win in the playoffs. .

im no fan of "Nellie ball" myself.
but look at the team that just won the NBA Championship the last 2 years. look at their PF-C situation....

 

[HereWeBoogie]

i just think you guys are overreacting on the small-ball stuff. a Forward lineup of Gay, Williams, Cousins isn't that small. and they all rebound pretty well.

its not like were gonna have a Keith Smart lineup with 6'6" Tyreke Evans at SF and Thomas Robinson at PF......

 

[rainmaker]

That's already been touched on by myself and others, in this thread and previously.

We don't have Lebron. You can get away with it with Lebron. Name another team which has won following this blueprint, sans Lebron.

Pointing out a single exception with the best player of his generation does not make it a strategy worth following. Bill Gates dropped out of college and became a billionaire. He's an exception. It doesn't mean everyone else should drop out of school and follow his lead. It's an exception for a reason and an exception which only applies if you actually have Lebron.

Look past Lebron at other recent champions in the LAL, Celtics, Spurs, Pistons, Bulls, Mavs, or teams which came close in the Jazz or Thunder, or a team which looks very good right now and a true contender in the Pacers and the picture gets much clearer. Even in our golden era when we'd run & gun, we were full sized with an MVP candidate PF, a full sized center in Vlade, a 6'10" Peja, Doug an All-NBA defender, full-sized Hedo off the bench, guys like Pollard, Funderburke and Clark also off the bench. And we ran less than we did in the JWill days.

There is no GS, Nuggets or Suns there for a reason. Everyone confronts this issue sooner or later.

 

[Bricklayer]

im no fan of "Nellie ball" myself.
but look at the team that just won the NBA Championship the last 2 years. look at their PF-C situation....

Duncecap for you!

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Some are jumping way ahead, all the way to a finished puzzle for what could win a championship. Lets put some talent together and move towards a playoff contender first. Hopefully by the time the new arena opens, we'll be very close to a 'complete' and refined roster

 

[hrdboild]

Let's say the lineup is: IT/McLemore/Gay/Williams/Cousins

If Gay is playing well early on, you bring in Thompson at PF for Williams. If Williams is the hot hand then you slide him to SF when Thompson comes in and sub out Rudy. Gray gets limited minutes spelling DeMarcus.

Let's say the lineup is: IT/McLemore/Gay/Thompson/Cousins

In this scenario Williams comes in for either Gay or Thompson, depending on the match ups. It winds up being virtually the same thing. Like we saw last night, Williams is going to be playing both forward positions until Landry is ready to play or more trades happen. Gay is getting starter's minutes at SF and Williams is getting starters minutes as a combo forward. Thompson probably still gets his customary 20-25 minutes per game. I think Acy is good enough defensively that he'll work his way into the rotation as well at some point this year.

For me, the real problems right now are at the guard positions where Jimmer has never excelled as a PG and Ray McCallum is going to have to get up to speed in a hurry. We're also stuck with Thornton as our only backup option for McLemore right now. The sooner we clean that mess up, the better.

Here's how I see this working out long-term -- whichever one of Williams or Gay looks like the best option in a year gets re-signed and the other one probably gets traded. I don't think either one is really going to work as a bench role-player or a stretch 4. My preference is for the 22 year old Williams who still has a ways to go before he hits his prime, but we have the luxury of time now to figure that out. Thompson or Landry is the backup PF, which one stays depends mostly on what other teams are looking for. Somebody might want to trade for Landry, for instance, intending to keep him on the sideline most of the year and improve their lottery stock. We're looking for more young, overlooked players in trades -- specifically a SG who can back up McLemore, depth at the PG position, and some size and shot-blocking in the post.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Does going with D-Will at the 4 instead of JT really make that much of a difference to classify the team Small-ball? we do have a legit 6'9 SF now. i mean is it that big of a difference? people seem to be overreacting a bit here.

It's not just about height: technically, Stojakovic was taller than Webber, and I don't think I have to remind you which one was which. Stojakovic not only was not the PF, he was not capable of playing PF. Height matters, but you have to actually be a PF in order to play PF.

I've seen more than enough of Rudy Gay to know that there's no trace of power forward in his game and, based on what I've seen of Derrick Williams' game, I'm pretty sure he doesn't have any either. Playing a SF at PF is a losing proposition.

im no fan of "Nellie ball" myself.
but look at the team that just won the NBA Championship the last 2 years. look at their PF-C situation....

Look at their LeBRON JAMES! Just like the old saying, "The answer to any question that starts with 'Well, why don't they...?' is always 'money'", well, when it comes to the NBA, the answer to any question that starts with, "Well, how come the Heat can...?" is always "LeBRON JAMES!"

When we can get a hold of an extra LeBRON JAMES, then I'll be happy to entertain any smallball proposals you might have. But, until then, no. Not only no, but hell no. Naughty HereWeVivek, naughty!

 

[hrdboild]

It's not just about height: technically, Stojakovic was taller than Webber, and I don't think I have to remind you which one was which. Stojakovic not only was not the PF, he was not capable of playing PF. Height matters, but you have to actually be a PF in order to play PF.

I've seen more than enough of Rudy Gay to know that there's no trace of power forward in his game and, based on what I've seen of Derrick Williams' game, I'm pretty sure he doesn't have any either. Playing a SF at PF is a losing proposition.

Yeah, I suspect we'll find out that Williams at PF might work in a pinch, but it's not a long-term option. There's not a lot of harm though in letting these guys play for the next four months while continuing to see what else might shake loose from other teams. We're planning for two years down the road and at that point our starting SF could just as easily be Gay, Williams, or neither. Gay is a proven commodity as a scorer but some people think he's an inefficient player who'll never help his team win. Williams has shown a lot of potential but needs to prove that he can do it consistently. Both are on extended trial runs for the time being and should get plenty of minutes as do-it-all wing players in various lineup combinations.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I like how you say "some people think [Gay] is an inefficient player," as if that's a completely unreasonable thing for people to have thought.

 

[Entity]

I am against anybody but JT play PF. Gay is by no means a PF. Now that being said if Williams can defend the bigger pf's in the league I am fine with it. Offensively it doesn't matter as JT isn't going to give you 20 pts. But that is also the argument right there. If you listed in order who our top scorers are it would look like this

1. Cousins
2. Gay
3. Thomas
4. Williams
5. McLemore

Now why would you want all those on the court at the same time for 30+ min every game with bench scoring coming from who? You pretty much put all your bench scoring on a very streaky Marcus Thornton. Go back and look at all the big men pairings over the last 20 years and see how many of them had 2 high volume shooters starting together

 

[KingMilz]

I rather use Gay as a SF/SG than PF tbh and let Williams go SF/PF and until we get a shot blocker keep JT at PF

C: Cuz/JT/Gray
PF: JT/Williams/Gay or Acy
SF: Gay/Williams/Outlaw
SG:Mclemore/Gay/Thornton
PG:IT/ Ray

I don't see Gay being any worse on defence than Thornton getting the back up mins @SG plus we would probably have one of the most massive teams in the NBA with that line up and still be athletic enough as well.

 

[pshn80]

That's already been touched on by myself and others, in this thread and previously.

We don't have Lebron. You can get away with it with Lebron. Name another team which has won following this blueprint, sans Lebron.

Pointing out a single exception with the best player of his generation does not make it a strategy worth following. Bill Gates dropped out of college and became a billionaire. He's an exception. It doesn't mean everyone else should drop out of school and follow his lead. It's an exception for a reason and an exception which only applies if you actually have Lebron.

Look past Lebron at other recent champions in the LAL, Celtics, Spurs, Pistons, Bulls, Mavs, Knicks(going back to the late 90's here) or teams which came close in the Jazz or Thunder, or a team which looks very good right now and a true contender in the Pacers and the picture gets much clearer. Even in our golden era when we'd run & gun, we were full sized with an MVP candidate PF, a full sized center in Vlade, a 6'10" Peja, Doug an All-NBA defender, full-sized Hedo off the bench, guys like Pollard, Funderburke and Clark also off the bench. And we ran less than we did in the JWill days.

There is no GS, Nuggets or Suns there for a reason. Everyone confronts this issue sooner or later.

We are along way from confronting it no matter heat. "It" has not been a problem for the Sacramento Kings for their 28 years so what's the big deal? It's like "look out for the boogie man".

 

[Entity]

Further more if you get into run and gun mode with fast pace using all those athletes. Guess who gets left out of the fold? The guy that got 32/19 last night

 

[Npliam]

JT is wildly undervalued by most Kings fans.

 

[Dr. Spaceman]

For those saying D-Will is more suited to play PF than Gay - you should realize that the two are extremely close in terms of measurements across the board. The notion that the two are interchangeable defensively is a good one, at least on paper. We'll see how their tendencies bear out long term.

Williams dropped quite a bit of weight over the past couple of years, and is now hovering around 230 lbs, which is the same as Rudy Gay. Both are 6'8", nearly identical standing reach (7'3") and both are strong athletes. This should offer us much more flexibility, should they get time together. Though I'll put in my 2 cents and say that JT should be starting so that we can better balance our usage rate conundrum amongst the lineup.

This is assuming Aaron Gray can play - I don't have much exposure to his game. If he can't play, then you have to consider bringing JT off the bench out of necessity, as he's the only other 4/5 on the roster besides Cousins.

 

[King Baller]

The starting Forwards are going to be Williams and Gay. Whoever they guard have to guard them

It should be fun to watch.

I also don't have any issue with starting JT at PF and bringing Williams in as 6th man.

By the way Landry will most likely be back in January sometime. What is Malone going to do then?

KB

 

[Bricklayer]

For those saying D-Will is more suited to play PF than Gay - you should realize that the two are extremely close in terms of measurements across the board. The notion that the two are interchangeable defensively is a good one, at least on paper. We'll see how their tendencies bear out long term.

Williams dropped quite a bit of weight over the past couple of years, and is now hovering around 230 lbs, which is the same as Rudy Gay. Both are 6'8", nearly identical standing reach (7'3") and both are strong athletes. This should offer us much more flexibility, should they get time together. Though I'll put in my 2 cents and say that JT should be starting so that we can better balance our usage rate conundrum amongst the lineup.

This is assuming Aaron Gray can play - I don't have much exposure to his game. If he can't play, then you have to consider bringing JT off the bench out of necessity, as he's the only other 4/5 on the roster besides Cousins.

The thing is that neither is a banger. Williams is too small for the positon, and Gay is slick and smooth. He's not about power, and he's not about to stand in there and guard old teammate Zach Randolph in the post when he turns into a whirling wall of elbows and shoulders.

And once you have given up the expectation of being able to actually defend the other team and instead are just going to try to mismatch and outscore them...well that really is Nellie ball. Its Keith Smart ball. Its loser ball in the end. A good team will get serious, they'll squeeze the life out of your break, and they'll control tempo as they pound you to death inside.

 

[peacelate]

It doesn't win when it counts. It's a style used to generate excitement in the short term but is not a blueprint for success 2, 3 or 4 years down the road. Hence, a gimmick.

I'm 100% against building on a style which doesn't win in the playoffs. Makes no sense to me. What makes sense is building on a style which does win in the playoffs. Why build towards a false strategy which doesn't win? Add to that Cuz is built for more of a halfcourt, grind it out style which does win in the playoffs, playing gimmick ball sidetracks us from our goal or at least what should be our goal.

To me, it doesn't seem as though the Kings are building towards small-ball. Neither Williams nor Gay are signed to long term contracts and both will be potential free agents either next season or the following. These are just assets move right now i.e. acquiring talent in the hopes they can either be part of the future or be traded later on. Before the trade for Williams and Gay, the team was non-competitive, which I don't think is a good brand of basketball either.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

The problem with DWill or Gay at the PF position is that you are leaving Cousins on an island defending the rim alone. With JT, at least you have a backup rim protector when Cousins is out chasing a guard on a pick and roll. It also helps keep Cuz out of foul trouble.

 

[rainmaker]

We are along way from confronting it no matter heat. "It" has not been a problem for the Sacramento Kings for their 28 years so what's the big deal? It's like "look out for the boogie man".

I'm not sure what your point is here, but I can assure you small ball by design/intent(sans Lebron) not winning when it counts is far from "looking out for the boogie man".

I'd go so far as to say expecting to take the small ball, run & gun style and do serious damage with it is far more similar to "looking out for the boogie man". Why? Because it's been done successfully(sans Lebron) about as many times as a young kid has caught the boogie man under his bed and snapped a photo.

 

[rainmaker]

To me, it doesn't seem as though the Kings are building towards small-ball. Neither Williams nor Gay are signed to long term contracts and both will be potential free agents either next season or the following. These are just assets move right now i.e. acquiring talent in the hopes they can either be part of the future or be traded later on. Before the trade for Williams and Gay, the team was non-competitive, which I don't think is a good brand of basketball either.

To me it doesn't matter if they're long term or not. We have an above average defensive PF in JT who makes Cuz's life a helluva lot easier. There's no reason to bench him and plug in either Gay/Williams, SF's, tomorrow, next week, in mid-Feb, or for any reason other than an injury as it does nothing to help Cuz.

Then we get into the bench and that all this does is weaken it even more while we have five guys in the starting lineup who all like to see shots released from their fingertips. It doesn't make sense defensively, it doesn't make sense in regards to not having any role players in the starting unit anymore and it doesn't make sense when looking at our bench and realizing there isn't a single offensive spark coming off it as they're all fighting for touches in the starting lineup.

How long either of Gay or Williams is here really is another topic all together. It doesn't relate to options we have here and now.

 

[cuad]

This is the way I see it.

If JT is the odd man out:

• JT allows 40 FG% at the rim (on the same level as guys like Asik and Howard) while Rudy Gay allows 59 FG% at the rim (on the same level as PPat) on the same number of attempts (~3.6). The defense will be worse. I don't want to hear nothing about They can switch faster! No. The defense will be worse.
  
• I'd be willing to bet that Cousins's foul rate goes up when Thompson is out.
  
• Too many players together who want the ball. IT, Gay, and Cousins.
• Nobody off the bench who can score with the ball in their hands. People say Derrick Williams can do this, but he can't. You saw last night that he scores best sort of off the ball as a recipient of passes from other players. He doesn't look anywhere near as good trying to create for himself. Thornton can't. Jimmer can't. Thompson can't. Gray can't, etc.

If Williams is the odd man out:

• Too many players together who want the ball. IT, Gay, and Cousins.
• Nobody off the bench who can score with the ball in their hands. People say Derrick Williams can do this, but he can't. You saw last night that he scores best sort of off the ball as a recipient of passes from other players. He doesn't look anywhere near as good trying to create for himself. Thornton can't. Jimmer can't. Thompson can't. Gray can't, etc.
  
• Ben loses the guy who wants to get him the ball.

If Gay is the odd man out:

• Balanced and complementary (chemistry, defense, offense) starting lineup.
  
• Somebody off the bench who can score with the ball in their hands.

 

[hrdboild]

I like how you say "some people think [Gay] is an inefficient player," as if that's a completely unreasonable thing for people to have thought.

I don't have an opinion one way or another on the matter. I've literally seen him play a half dozen times total since he's been in the league, and all of those times were when he was with Memphis, none more recent than 2 years ago. It's probably fair to say that most people think Rudy Gay is an inefficient offensive player, but I'm not a fan of expressing other people's opinions as my own so I simply stated what the perception is and why he's still got something to prove. Most people seemed to think Derrick Williams wasn't worth much when we traded for him. That's a perfect example of why I trust my own eyes not everyone else's.