Our Chances......
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Nash, Marion, Amare > Bibby, Peja, SAR
Okay, I'll give you that. But that is 3 guys out of 12. Take anybody else on the Kings and place them against the same position on Pheonix and we win.
Miller, Bonzi, Kenny Thomas > Kurt Thomas, Raja Bell, Jimmy Jackson
Okay, with that logic 2 years ago with the Piston's vs. Laker's finals.
Shaq, Kobe, Malone > B. Wallace, Hamilton, R. Wallace
Too bad the worse three won the championship. You still have to take in chemistry, team dynamics and the teams identity (all three of which the Laker's lacked)
The identity of Pheonix, at this point, is in question. As of right now Johnson and Richardson left. That's 2/5 of the starting line-up and a part of their run and gun style. Kurt Thomas will slow that down.
But what some people aren't foucsing on, a vital part of their offense has been comprimised. You couldn't leave Joe Johnson and Richardson alone on the perimeter and focus on Amare. But with Raja Bell and Marion hanging lurking at 3 point range, watch more double teams on Amare.
So their defense is a small bit better, their offense will be much more managable.
Okay, I'll give you that. But that is 3 guys out of 12. Take anybody else on the Kings and place them against the same position on Pheonix and we win.
Miller, Bonzi, Kenny Thomas > Kurt Thomas, Raja Bell, Jimmy Jackson
Okay, with that logic 2 years ago with the Piston's vs. Laker's finals.
Shaq, Kobe, Malone > B. Wallace, Hamilton, R. Wallace
Too bad the worse three won the championship. You still have to take in chemistry, team dynamics and the teams identity (all three of which the Laker's lacked)
The identity of Pheonix, at this point, is in question. As of right now Johnson and Richardson left. That's 2/5 of the starting line-up and a part of their run and gun style. Kurt Thomas will slow that down.
But what some people aren't foucsing on, a vital part of their offense has been comprimised. You couldn't leave Joe Johnson and Richardson alone on the perimeter and focus on Amare. But with Raja Bell and Marion hanging lurking at 3 point range, watch more double teams on Amare.
So their defense is a small bit better, their offense will be much more managable.
Karl Malone in the 2004 NBA Finals : 5ppg, 7.3rpg, 2.3apg
Plus, Shaq and Kobe didn't play off eachother because of their beef. So those two were not up to their usual standards.
and
Billups was the Finals MVP, but you don't think he is or was one of the Pistons Big 3?
Hmmmm.
They'll be one of the top 3 scoring teams this year, if not the #1 again. Maybe one of the 4 or 5 elite defensive teams will have an easier time holding them under 105, but they're not going to be anything "manageable" to a non-defending team such as the Kings.
They still have the tools to torch anyone and if we get caught up in a shootout with them, we lose 5 times out of 7.
Plus, Shaq and Kobe didn't play off eachother because of their beef. So those two were not up to their usual standards.
and
Billups was the Finals MVP, but you don't think he is or was one of the Pistons Big 3?
Hmmmm.
They'll be one of the top 3 scoring teams this year, if not the #1 again. Maybe one of the 4 or 5 elite defensive teams will have an easier time holding them under 105, but they're not going to be anything "manageable" to a non-defending team such as the Kings.
They still have the tools to torch anyone and if we get caught up in a shootout with them, we lose 5 times out of 7.
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I was matching the positions, based on the Laker's lineup, so pardon me that I didn't include Billups who is obviously much better than Hamilton.
There is nobody who can tell me that Billups is a better player than Karl Malone. Malone was the victim to a bad team dynamic and system. And that is exactly my point.
Remember, that year everybody was handing the title to the Lakers because they had the better players. Then we see that chemistry actual matters.
There is nobody who can tell me that Billups is a better player than Karl Malone. Malone was the victim to a bad team dynamic and system. And that is exactly my point.
Remember, that year everybody was handing the title to the Lakers because they had the better players. Then we see that chemistry actual matters.
Malone was extremely diminished at that point, and hobbled. The Lakers had the bigger names, but they did not have the better players. Ben Wallace is not one of the Pistons' Top 3, he is a defensive roleplayer, and the best at that in the league. Switch Big Ben and Billups. Then you have defense-first types like Prince and Big Ben, with 2-3 solid bench guys. That's how you win championships. Much as I look askance at the Colangelos, why do you think they replaced 2 of their starters with Thomas and Raja Bell? There's no magical formula to winning a championship. Everyone knows what the blueprint is, and you can either choose to follow it(Buford and Dumars), or not (Petrie and Nellie).
Yeah, Malone (at his best) is obviously better than Billups but we can tell you that Billups was better than Malone in that series. He was better than Kobe too. Doesn't mean Billups is the better player any day. And no, Malone wasn't the victim of a bad team dynamic and system. Did you even watch the Finals or any Lakers games that season? He was a victim of an injury to his knee. That season, in games with Malone in the lineup, the Lakers had like a .750 winning percentage (something ridiculously good) and without him they were pretty much a .500 team. He was a guy who made the system work, who's presence made the chemistry acceptable.
The Lakers top guys were outperformed, their role players got worked as well and their bench was inferior to the Pistons. Once Malone went down and Payton basically gave up, the Lakers were reduced to a two man team and the only two who could get it done weren't working together.
The Lakers top guys were outperformed, their role players got worked as well and their bench was inferior to the Pistons. Once Malone went down and Payton basically gave up, the Lakers were reduced to a two man team and the only two who could get it done weren't working together.
Any team but the Spurs, Heat and Pistons this is also true, looks like were in the same boat as the rest of the league. You have to remember, the team was horribly injured last year yet we still won what 51 games in the regular season. I think if the team (wishing) the team can stay healthy, we can definitely improve on last year. You haven't even seen the team in action yet, personally I didn't think the Nash addition to the Suns would lead to them having the best record in the league last year. Give the team a chance before you throw them into the heap before the season has even started and before future moves can still be made.
i personally like the kings chances of a second round appearance next year along with a pacific division crown. however i think that we only get farther with some key injuries on other teams. if ANY of the big three in phoenix go down for extended time BYE_BYE.....right there automatic 3rd seed. and then if our second round opponent has some injury problems, then i really do believe that we make it to the WCF.
So here'e hoping that a team OTHER than the Kings actually has injury problems this year.
So here'e hoping that a team OTHER than the Kings actually has injury problems this year.
West is tough. SA is in the 2nd round. Then you have the Kings, Mavs, Suns (bigger question mark without JJ, a check mark I believe with him if the team is healthy) and the Rockets as well as Denver vying for the slots.
I think the Sonics, a team from last year's semi's has been hung out to dry with the loss of Daniels and potentially other FAs.
I don't think the Warriors, Clippers, and Jazz will have enough to get very far, although I think all 3 teams will definitely improve from last year although I don't get the Cassell move. Grizzles are an interesting team, I don't know if they've done enough, Eddie Jones? Blah, and I'm a Memphis resident.
Minne is also interesting but I don't know how they can win without an established PG, Hudson is a joke.
The rest of the teams, I guess are irrelevant, It'll be interesting to see if the Phil finally misses the playoffs.
I think the Sonics, a team from last year's semi's has been hung out to dry with the loss of Daniels and potentially other FAs.
I don't think the Warriors, Clippers, and Jazz will have enough to get very far, although I think all 3 teams will definitely improve from last year although I don't get the Cassell move. Grizzles are an interesting team, I don't know if they've done enough, Eddie Jones? Blah, and I'm a Memphis resident.
Minne is also interesting but I don't know how they can win without an established PG, Hudson is a joke.
The rest of the teams, I guess are irrelevant, It'll be interesting to see if the Phil finally misses the playoffs.
With Phoenix turning into a more traditional team by loosing Richardson and JJ and adding Thomas as the starting C, I don't see them being a fast break team like last year. Alot of their points came via 3 pointers and they have lost their top to 3 point threats. I think we take the Pac, and possibly into WCF, if we don't catch our yearly injury epidemic....
The fact that the Suns now have Thomas and Bell and a year of experience deep into the playoffs makes them more dangerous in my opinion. While it is quite possible that they fall back to the pack this year, especially in the regular season, I think they have a much better chance to get to the Finals than they did last year.
More dangerous? You do realize why they won last year. It wasn't because they were playing hard-core defence. It's because they had 3 sharp-shooters bombing any time they could and then having Amare go crazy. They have no replaced 1 of their sharp shooters with another decent shooter but a guy more acustomed to being a bench player in Bell. I think Bell for Q is a wash. Losing JJ is going to be the problem. He was their backup PG on top of being there most consistant 3 point shooter and only a tender 24 years of age.
While I have easily argued in the past that he did not deserve a monster contract (Brick can attest to that), I think losing him will definitely hurt them in the short and long run. I don't know if what they need is Thomas, while being a better center defensively than Amare, isn't exactly the Giant they need inside. I'm personally more worried about a gelled Rockets team or an improved Mavs team than the Suns. The Heat also look scary on paper while the Pistons will compete. Suns just aren't as scary without the bombers. Amare, Marion, and Nash were part of the 5 man wrecking crew last year, without all the pieces I doubt they'll be nearly as effective.
While I have easily argued in the past that he did not deserve a monster contract (Brick can attest to that), I think losing him will definitely hurt them in the short and long run. I don't know if what they need is Thomas, while being a better center defensively than Amare, isn't exactly the Giant they need inside. I'm personally more worried about a gelled Rockets team or an improved Mavs team than the Suns. The Heat also look scary on paper while the Pistons will compete. Suns just aren't as scary without the bombers. Amare, Marion, and Nash were part of the 5 man wrecking crew last year, without all the pieces I doubt they'll be nearly as effective.
You do realize that they didn't "win" last year, the Spurs did. I think they have a better chance of winning by that definition (a championship or at least a Finals appearance) than they did last year. As I said, they could easily come back down to earth, that wouldn't be a surprise, but they are also better set up to take a step forward.
I think the teams with defensive presence and experience together in the playoffs have the best shot at the title. In the west, that puts the Spurs, Rockets, Suns and even Mavericks ahead of the Kings. I'm not talking about regular-season wins, I'm talking about ability to win more than one series in the playoffs.
I think the teams with defensive presence and experience together in the playoffs have the best shot at the title. In the west, that puts the Spurs, Rockets, Suns and even Mavericks ahead of the Kings. I'm not talking about regular-season wins, I'm talking about ability to win more than one series in the playoffs.
Ugh, how does this really upgrade there D, they are going from worst in the league in terms of PPG. Raja for JJ is a wash and Thomas is slightly better than Q, with that you only have 2 better than average defenders for their position in Marion if he's playing the 3 and Raja at the 2. With that being said, you can't change a team and expect the same results. These are significant changes. Defensive presence and the suns shouldn't be in the same sentence. There's a huge difference between defensive teams such as the Spurs and the Pistons, who both have 2 of the best interior defenders on top of having one of the top 3 perimeter defenders (Bowen and Prince) on top of having others who are effective defenders (Manu, Hamilton, Billups, Nazr). It's a team mentality on these teams. You honestly think bringing in Thomas and Raja is going to switch the Suns from Offensive Machine to defensive team, you and I know that isn't true. The reason the suns were so effective against every other team than the Spurs is that they ran the ball so well. They did run into a wall, it's called the best team in the league.
All I'm saying is I don't think there going in the right direction. These moves are at best lateral. An up move would have been to bring in a guy like Ben Wallace, or Tyson Chandler to clog up the middle, what they did was piece together some moves.
And to your quote in which you say "you do realize they didn't win." I do realize that, but do you realize they went from a horrible team the year before to WCF with effectively adding 2 players in Nash and Q from the year before. They couldn't beat the Spurs with JJ being 100% effective and now they switch gears. I can understand them getting rid of Q, I've thought from the beginning he was a bum. I can understand why they have to let JJ go, but I don't think the team will be nearly as good because of this. The team won a lot of games for 1 reason and 1 reason alone, they could put up a tremendous amount of points. 2 of the players who remain in the starting lineup and last year were considered MVP candidates, are still there and still don't play very good D. They aren't changing their mentality this year, I don't understand why you would think changing parts for effectively weaker parts is going to add up to more effectiveness in the playoffs. WCF ain't shabby especially for a team that didn't make the playoffs the year before.
You act like D'Antoni who effectively didn't coach that much last year is going to change directions. As long as you have Nash at the helm, a team isn't going to be very defensive. He's terrible defensively and things stem from there. D'Antoni seemed to not to know how to coach D last year, do you think it'll change. Coaches don't change philosophies, I doubt D'Antoni is going to suddenly dawn upon playing D in the next couple of monthes although we all know you need D to win the title, well atleast every team that's won since what 1988 has played pretty good D.
All I'm saying is I don't think there going in the right direction. These moves are at best lateral. An up move would have been to bring in a guy like Ben Wallace, or Tyson Chandler to clog up the middle, what they did was piece together some moves.
And to your quote in which you say "you do realize they didn't win." I do realize that, but do you realize they went from a horrible team the year before to WCF with effectively adding 2 players in Nash and Q from the year before. They couldn't beat the Spurs with JJ being 100% effective and now they switch gears. I can understand them getting rid of Q, I've thought from the beginning he was a bum. I can understand why they have to let JJ go, but I don't think the team will be nearly as good because of this. The team won a lot of games for 1 reason and 1 reason alone, they could put up a tremendous amount of points. 2 of the players who remain in the starting lineup and last year were considered MVP candidates, are still there and still don't play very good D. They aren't changing their mentality this year, I don't understand why you would think changing parts for effectively weaker parts is going to add up to more effectiveness in the playoffs. WCF ain't shabby especially for a team that didn't make the playoffs the year before.
You act like D'Antoni who effectively didn't coach that much last year is going to change directions. As long as you have Nash at the helm, a team isn't going to be very defensive. He's terrible defensively and things stem from there. D'Antoni seemed to not to know how to coach D last year, do you think it'll change. Coaches don't change philosophies, I doubt D'Antoni is going to suddenly dawn upon playing D in the next couple of monthes although we all know you need D to win the title, well atleast every team that's won since what 1988 has played pretty good D.
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I don't think you understand what I'm saying. More dangerous does not necessarily mean better. It means better suited to win a championship or at least win the West.
Ahead of the Kings in terms of the combination of defensive presence and team playoff experience does not mean defensive team. It means that combining those two things (that I believe are crucial to a team's championship hopes) puts the Suns ahead of the Kings.
Ahead of the Kings in terms of the combination of defensive presence and team playoff experience does not mean defensive team. It means that combining those two things (that I believe are crucial to a team's championship hopes) puts the Suns ahead of the Kings.
I don't think KT is gonna play center, Amare will. I know Amare doesn't want to or something. While an upgrade for their starters positions, Thomas at center isn't too much. I think they will switch Amare/Thomas when match-ups dicate that, but Amare mostly at C.
The moves aren't over, I think there'll be at least 2 or 3 more, for the bench.
The moves aren't over, I think there'll be at least 2 or 3 more, for the bench.
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HUH? What have they done to improve their chances to beat the Spurs? I don't get what your getting at. How are they going to beat the Spurs? The Kings Squad >> Suns Squad with respect to the playoffs, atleast the core. Defensively were both pretty bad. How does that improve their chances?
The point is, you can't take a team with a bunch of parts that do A, and then change a couple of parts and expect them to do B. They aren't going to change. Amare might improve, Nash won't. The point is, how are they in a much better position than the Kings, when they don't have the personnel to match up with any defensive team in the league. They don't, we don't either. That's my point.
What they are doing is a half-*** attempt to become decently defensive? All I'm saying their top flight personnel is suited for 1 type of game, and these minor changes aren't going to improve their changes. I don't know why they didn't change something that wasn't broke.
The team other than Nash was extremely young, now it isn't. Kurt Thomas is 8 years older than Q, Raja is 4 years older than JJ. How have their chances increased? I still don't get it. They have gotten significantly worse offensively, and slightly increased defensively. Honestly the only team they had problems with, they will still have huge problems with. That's my point.
The point is, you can't take a team with a bunch of parts that do A, and then change a couple of parts and expect them to do B. They aren't going to change. Amare might improve, Nash won't. The point is, how are they in a much better position than the Kings, when they don't have the personnel to match up with any defensive team in the league. They don't, we don't either. That's my point.
What they are doing is a half-*** attempt to become decently defensive? All I'm saying their top flight personnel is suited for 1 type of game, and these minor changes aren't going to improve their changes. I don't know why they didn't change something that wasn't broke.
The team other than Nash was extremely young, now it isn't. Kurt Thomas is 8 years older than Q, Raja is 4 years older than JJ. How have their chances increased? I still don't get it. They have gotten significantly worse offensively, and slightly increased defensively. Honestly the only team they had problems with, they will still have huge problems with. That's my point.
I'm nto sure why you're missing this, but to go deep, to get a title, a team needs to win the war INSIDE, not the war outside. Kurt Thomas is a step in that direction. Thomas/Amare/Marion is a tough tough frontline fully capable of matching up with Nazr/Duncan/Bowen. In theory Raja and Jackson are tough defense/three point roleplayers at OG (some question thrown on Raja recently), as well as Diaw. Let alone if they get Finley.
In the way that you win in the postseason, they are better constructed than they were last year with thier smallball. And they have better defenders all across the frontline than we do now as well. They could still step back just on raw talent drain, but they are built the right way now if they've still got the horses.
I'm not as scared of them as I was a few months ago, but come playoff time they look like serious customers now and promise to be a tough out.
In the way that you win in the postseason, they are better constructed than they were last year with thier smallball. And they have better defenders all across the frontline than we do now as well. They could still step back just on raw talent drain, but they are built the right way now if they've still got the horses.
I'm not as scared of them as I was a few months ago, but come playoff time they look like serious customers now and promise to be a tough out.
Just to piggy-back on this a little bit; the Suns are now built for the postseason. Bell is a physical jerk, who can also stick the J. Bell will make Manu pay for some of those flops and flailing arm drives to the hole. This is the guy who dry-gulched BJax in '03, in BJax's first game back from a broken cheek. The Suns have plenty of scoring. On any given night Nash and Amare could go for 40 apiece. And Amare is only guy besides Shaq capable of embarrassing Duncan, literally. Amare destroyed Duncan in that series. The Suns just got creamed everywhere else and played soft. As long as they have Nash, Amare, and Marion they will always be able to run the fast break. The addition of Thomas allows them to slow it down better as well.
I don't think that many people realize that Amare is the most dominant post presence in the game right now, and what that does for the rest of the team. Whoever is wearing a Suns uniform is going to get open looks because Amare KILLS people inside. Not cerebrally outperforms people a la Duncan, but DOMINATES them. Who would the Kings even attempt to guard Amare with? I know most of you will say the whole "team", because it takes "team" defense. Well, you're right, they'll throw all 5 guys his way, and he'll dunk on all them. And when you get gorilla-slammed on for 4 quarters, it gets really de-motivating. This Suns team will sweep the Kings in a series.
I don't think that many people realize that Amare is the most dominant post presence in the game right now, and what that does for the rest of the team. Whoever is wearing a Suns uniform is going to get open looks because Amare KILLS people inside. Not cerebrally outperforms people a la Duncan, but DOMINATES them. Who would the Kings even attempt to guard Amare with? I know most of you will say the whole "team", because it takes "team" defense. Well, you're right, they'll throw all 5 guys his way, and he'll dunk on all them. And when you get gorilla-slammed on for 4 quarters, it gets really de-motivating. This Suns team will sweep the Kings in a series.
Another thought. With the players the Suns lost, they will not be able to spread the floor like they once did. Teams will be able to focus in on Amare, making his job A LOT tougher. I liked what the Spurs did against the Suns, letting Nash do what he wanted and let burn him self out while taking out his options on the perimeter.
I don't think the Suns are a horrible team with the losses but I think they are just as new and different, with as many question marks as we have next season.
I don't think the Suns are a horrible team with the losses but I think they are just as new and different, with as many question marks as we have next season.
Kid, you and jay dubb(an alias? little brother?) are both wrong. Shooters do not dictate spacing, post players do. Q and Joe Johnson got those looks because of Amare. Teams can key in on Amare all they want, he'll just throw it back out to Bell, Nash, Marion, and the original JJ for open shots. It's same principle whereby shooter have their best years when playing with Shaq. You can have all the pretty ball movement you want, but the best open shots are going to come from kick outs from dominant big men.