Only way to rebuild

[funkykingston]

So the "only way to rebuild" is not to rebuild at all. This is retooling time, not rebuilding time. There is plenty of potential in a Cousins/WCS frontcourt once a coach is acquired who will use it. There are multiple cheap "friends of Boogie" roleplayers (Casspi, Acy) to bring back for culture. There is a PG leading the league in assists who said he came here for Cuz, and whom Cuz respects. Almost all of the remaining pieces are on very reasonable contracts, about to get even more reasonable with the exploding cap, meaning they can have use whether you keep them or trade them to teams looking to control costs.

There's no rebuild, and the cubbard is not at all bare.

1) NEW COACH

2) Install Cuz/WCS as frontocurt

3) Keep Casspi and Acy as glue. Curry has another year left too.

4) Return of Rondo as 3rd starter

-------------------------------------------------------------

5) FREE AGENCY

6) Then here is where you do the non-coach work:
Gay = good contract to keep or trade
Collison = good contract to keep or trade
Belinelli = good contract to keep or trade
Koufos = good contract to keep or trade
McLemore = minor value

7) And just clear this out:
Anderson = gone
Butler = gone
Moreland = gone (probably, can;t stay healthy)
Dukan = gone


Enough with the panic already. There is plenty that can happen from our position. We may already have our starting frontocurt, superstar, and starting PGs in town. That's the hard stuff. And with the cap making all of our contracts look very reasonable all of a sudden, we've got more assets than people realize.

I would think McLemore has more trade value than Belinelli, being on a shorter, cheaper contract and being and athletic 22 year old vs a long time vet coming off the absolute worst season of his career. Which is not to say that Ben represents a good trade value. Just that Marco probably represents even less.

Acy and Curry both have player options (Acy either has a player option or a non-guaranteed deal depending on which site you look at) but I would definitely like to see them back. Both guys are exactly what you want out of deep benchers - good attitudes and guys who can come into the game and either boost the energy level or have the potential to put points on the board quickly.

Here's my thing with Rondo. Can he still defend? I mean, if Thibs walks through the door is he (1) physically able to defend and (2) willing to do so full time? Rondo's poor shooting (and yes I know his percentages this year, what do you think a guy like Collison would shoot if he got that many wide open looks from opponents daring him to shoot?) is a big negative. But his smarts, his passing ability and his defense made him a top PG in Boston. But I don't want to re-sign a ball dominant, non-shooting PG who plays such atrocious defense. That's a decision Vlade will have to make, and part of the calculus is how much cap room Rondo will demand.

If a good deal is out there for Gay I think you have to move him. I don't dislike him and he's been better than I thought he'd be since coming over from Toronto but this team needs more grinders. More defense, more outside shooting and more ball movement. Rondo and Cousins are already more ball dominant than I like and Rudy just adds to that. The best quarters or halves of basketball I've seen from the Kings have all coincided with them moving the ball on offense. Having a largely iso-based scorer who isn't a playmaker and does his best work either posting up or pulling up from 10-15 feet doesn't help a team that also features Rondo and Cousins.

I can squint hard and see a Rondo/quality SG/Casspi/WCS/Cousins starting lineup (with a tweaked bench) being a playoff team under the right coach.

 

[Bricklayer]

Sure there will be. Cuz isn't going to Dwightmare us. And he likes Vlade. That would be a bad misread of Cuz's personality. He's loyal like a dog is loyal. We'll have warning and he'll work with us if it ever comes to that. This isn't a "gotta do what you gotta do for your family" sort of blowhard.

 

[funkykingston]

so, looking at the roster, I see our only real youth to build on being WCS and Ben.
Logic tells me that the only way to rebuild this (THE RIGHT WAY) is to trade our only valuable pieces, DMC and gay, and try to do this correctly.

I glossed over this the first time I read it.

McLemore isn't youth to build on. At this point he is what he is and any improvement will be incremental.

Cauley-Stein isn't a building block either. He's probably my favorite current King and I absolutely love what he brings and his potential to continue to develop defensively while adding a bit of offense, but he's a role player. A high level role player, but a role player.

He's best suited for a situation where he has a good playmaker or playmakers to get him transition baskets and easy looks in the halfcourt and where his frontcourt mate is a high level scorer. That describes the Kings but it would also describe the Clippers (and DeAndre Jordan) or the Mavs during their championship season (Chandler working the WCS role with Nowitzki, Kidd et al)

Trill is one of those pieces that championship teams love/need to have but not the one that will carry the team.

 

[bajaden]

Honestly Baja I'd take the Mavs endless cycle of fruitless playoff runs. I really would. Especially since this season would mark 10 straight years without even making the playoffs.

I'd love for the Kings to be the next Spurs or Warriors or Lakers or Bulls but it'd be really nice just to be able to still be excited about my team in March instead of already talking about how to fix things in the offseason.

And here's the thing about being "pretend contenders". At least each year you get to talk about what changes might be made to become actual contenders instead of debating whether to blow things up completely and rebuild each year.

Well that's why I asked the question. There is no right or wrong answer when it comes to what pleases each individual, and believe me, I get where you coming from. From my point of view, I don't mind trying to make the playoffs, as long as I don't damage my future prospects in the process. In other words, I can see it's not a championship team, but its the beginning of the core of what I'm trying to build. Not close to the finished product. I'm fine with that approach because your still in the building process. What I'am opposed to, is when you make the playoffs, don't have a contending team, and have no draft picks or capspace to improve. That's when making the playoffs becomes a hollow victory.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Sure there will be. Cuz isn't going to Dwightmare us. And he likes Vlade. That would be a bad misread of Cuz's personality. He's loyal like a dog is loyal. We'll have warning and he'll work with us if it ever comes to that. This isn't a "gotta do what you gotta do for your family" sort of blowhard.

Assuming this was in response to me?

Not sure I disagree with what you are saying, but I'm not sure you understood me, either. All I'm saying is that if this summer's retooling doesn't work out, then the writing is likely on the wall.

 

[Bricklayer]

Assuming this was in response to me?

Not sure I disagree with what you are saying, but I'm not sure you understood me, either. All I'm saying is that if this summer's retooling doesn't work out, then the writing is likely on the wall.

That is entirely possible. One day...there will come a day.

In response to this thread that day isn't today, however.

 

[206Fan]

We don't need Rondo back next year. At this point, I'm not trading Cousins for the Nets pick. Highly likely that it ends up 3rd or 4th anyways.

The Kings need to start the rebuild this year by tanking. That is the only way we could remotely ever be competitive again. This season is a waste already unless the kings finish 20-0 or whatever it is (miracle).

If we trade Cuz, I want a star back for him. If we can't get a star, we need to hold onto him.

 

[kingsboi]

OP, I see where you are coming from. You've been a fan much much longer than I have, so my tolerance level for this team is still high, higher than I want it to be but it's still there. We can talk about trading Cousins all we want but if you don't have a front office in place that has a goal set and a proper direction, it's all for not. That being said, you give Vlade another off season to make things right, get a proper head coach and try to trade Gay and see if you can bring in something else other than Rondo. The first step the Kings need to do however is to tank the season the rest of the way and keep that draft pick, they lack young talent in the worst way, it's an asset moving forward so I'm all aboard the tank the season approach. I've been saying for quite some time that I'd like to see Cousins on another team, just to see how much he would blow up and how it would impact the W/L for the new team, that does hurt to say but if things don't go right this next season, I might have to agree about looking to trade Boogie prior to his contact expiring and get something of value and start all over again, until then...tick tock Vlade & Vivek.

 

[swisshh]

We have yet to properly build around Cousins. We threw a year of him away on the Karl experiment.

Let me be direct in a way some may not want to hear: If you didn't manage to put a competent environment around Cousins, and you only rebuild in hopes of getting a talent the level of Cousins, then why would you go after a rebuild?

It's like this

"We're going to rebuild this house."
"What house?"
"Over there."
"That ragged tent?"
"Aye"
"What was it like before?"
"A sleeping bag."
"Oh dear."

 

[iowamcnabb]

We have yet to properly build around Cousins. We threw a year of him away on the Karl experiment.

Weren't most people singing the praises of Vlade this summer? We added 2 NBA champions, drafted a Tyson chandler type, signed a defensive minded bench big and yet it basically made no difference. We were bad defensively before Karl got here and we are bad now. We were bad overall before Karl got here and we are still bad.

As Tmac said on espn this is a mental issue with this group. The talent is there but we just can't put it together.

 

[NewArena]

so, looking at the roster, I see our only real youth to build on being WCS and Ben.

Ben? God i hope not.

 

[bajaden]

Weren't most people singing the praises of Vlade this summer? We added 2 NBA champions, drafted a Tyson chandler type, signed a defensive minded bench big and yet it basically made no difference. We were bad defensively before Karl got here and we are bad now. We were bad overall before Karl got here and we are still bad.

As Tmac said on espn this is a mental issue with this group. The talent is there but we just can't put it together.

One could argue, and I would argue, that we're worse defensively under Karl.

 

[Iced Espresso]

I'm not poking at you with this, but honestly how many times have we fans said this about the Kings?

Well Cousins expires the following season.

That makes its more important than usual.

Was there a time in the last decade where you worried about someone walking away, or thought we had a chance to win more so?

 

[swisshh]

Weren't most people singing the praises of Vlade this summer? We added 2 NBA champions, drafted a Tyson chandler type, signed a defensive minded bench big and yet it basically made no difference. We were bad defensively before Karl got here and we are bad now. We were bad overall before Karl got here and we are still bad.

As Tmac said on espn this is a mental issue with this group. The talent is there but we just can't put it together.

Well all time playoff champion TMAC said it, so I guess this conversation is over.

Yes, I am mocking that.

Marco isn't a dribble drive player. Kosta has been solid. Butler's purpose is to manage the locker room. Casspi has been good. Seth has been good in limited chances. WCS has looked like the best pick for this team in years.

So, yes, Marco has been bad. I don't think it's a bad signing considering his talent and the team's need. (3pt shooting.)

Would I have had Vlade put the clamps down on Karl earlier in the season? Yes. Do I realize he didn't ditch the coach because of the very recent past? Yes.

After the all-star break, the Kings slowed the pace a bit FOR ONE SINGLE GAME. They held off a bit on the switching FOR ONE SINGLE GAME. Did that look like better basketball? I'm going to say yes.

Why has that since vanished? Do you think that sort of adjustment could increase wins? Would that increase lead to a playoff spot? Would you be happier with the playoffs?

And there's all your answers.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Well all time playoff champion TMAC said it, so I guess this conversation is over.

Would I have had Vlade put the clamps down on Karl earlier in the season? Yes. Do I realize he didn't ditch the coach because of the very recent past? .

Well if the all time playoff champion Swisshh said it I guess the conversation is over. Just kidding.


My post was not a defend Karl post, I just think the issues are larger than defensive strategy and a couple role players here and there. As Tmcac said, Rondo, Cousins and Gay should have been enough to get us to the playoffs. Clearly the culture sucks in Sactown and it starts at the top. As others have said, this is going to be a big year coming up.

 

[swisshh]

I agree that there was enough talent to reach the playoffs. Neither Portland or Utah have a easy talent advantage over the Kings. However, system issues can derail things quite easily.

You also can't change the very top of things. A boss never fires themselves. And if that was the main issue, a roster tear-down would accomplish nothing.

 

[dude12]

Lets bring in a coach that values defense before tearing this apart. If you implement a real defensive system, I think you see Vlade's vision become clearer. Need a SG upgrade for sure. Nobody builds around Ben McLemore. Nobody builds around WCS but he's a very good complimentary piece....maybe more and you need guys like him. You DO build around Cousins.

Somebody said it best a few weeks ago here on the forum. You play the lottery so you can get a guy like Cousins. We have him. We got that piece already. If Vlade can get the right coach in here, fix the SG spot, and then nail the draft pick again......the corner will be turned.

 

[Kingster]

So if we trade Cousins and say the Kings get the #1 pick in the entire draft (as well as other assets), does Philly get that pick? Or does the swap only apply to the #1 "Kings" pick?

 

[LPKingsFan]

So if we trade Cousins and say the Kings get the #1 pick in the entire draft (as well as other assets), does Philly get that pick? Or does the swap only apply to the #1 "Kings" pick?

I actually was wondering the same thing. I don't think the swap would apply to non-Kings picks, but even if it did you could get around it by not consummating the trade until the pick was made, so you are not technically trading for a pick.

 

[Merdiesel]

Ben is not a piece. And WCS is not the level of guy you rebuild around.

On top of that you a) currently have one of the best players in the 70 year history of the franchise, in his prime; and b) have impeded or traded away first round picks that won't let up until 2020.

So the "only way to rebuild" is not to rebuild at all. This is retooling time, not rebuilding time. There is plenty of potential in a Cousins/WCS frontcourt once a coach is acquired who will use it. There are multiple cheap "friends of Boogie" roleplayers (Casspi, Acy) to bring back for culture. There is a PG leading the league in assists who said he came here for Cuz, and whom Cuz respects. Almost all of the remaining pieces are on very reasonable contracts, about to get even more reasonable with the exploding cap, meaning they can have use whether you keep them or trade them to teams looking to control costs.

There's no rebuild, and the cubbard is not at all bare.

1) NEW COACH

2) Install Cuz/WCS as frontocurt

3) Keep Casspi and Acy as glue. Curry has another year left too.

4) Return of Rondo as 3rd starter

-------------------------------------------------------------

5) FREE AGENCY

6) Then here is where you do the non-coach work:
Gay = good contract to keep or trade
Collison = good contract to keep or trade
Belinelli = good contract to keep or trade
Koufos = good contract to keep or trade
McLemore = minor value

7) And just clear this out:
Anderson = gone
Butler = gone
Moreland = gone (probably, can;t stay healthy)
Dukan = gone


Enough with the panic already. There is plenty that can happen from our position. #1/#5 and #6 alone can dramatically alter our fate. We may already have our starting frontocurt, superstar, and starting PGs in town. That's the hard stuff. And with the cap making all of our contracts look very reasonable all of a sudden, we've got more assets than people realize.

This post makes me feel a hell of a lot better, thank you.

 

[Amit149]

So if we trade Cousins and say the Kings get the #1 pick in the entire draft (as well as other assets), does Philly get that pick? Or does the swap only apply to the #1 "Kings" pick?

No they can only swap with OUR pick, not picks we acquire.

We have yet to properly build around Cousins. We threw a year of him away on the Karl experiment.

Let me be direct in a way some may not want to hear: If you didn't manage to put a competent environment around Cousins, and you only rebuild in hopes of getting a talent the level of Cousins, then why would you go after a rebuild?

It's like this

"We're going to rebuild this house."
"What house?"
"Over there."
"That ragged tent?"
"Aye"
"What was it like before?"
"A sleeping bag."
"Oh dear."

A lot of posters here are acting like time and contracts aren't real things, Cousins have 2 years on his contract if you waste 1 more year than you are dealing with an expiring guy- and that is a whole different ball game than it is now.
Even without mentioning the value of rookie contracts to cap management, let's put it this way- you can get 8 years of one player or 2 years of the other- don't you see the value in that? especially since your chances to actually do something meaningful in those 2 years are close to nothing (it's not like we are contending for a title).

3 notes:

1. It seems like some of you think you can put a "winner" together without a player like Cousins, the same guys usually claims that Cousins is arguably a top 5 player in the NBA, in that case by definition there are atleast 12 playoff teams without a player of Cousins caliber.
You can build a good team without a super-star, hell to win 30 games you don't even need anything close to an all-star- and that's where we are at now.

2. About Cousins loyalty, I don't doubt the guy- but whenever someone say "he's loyal like a dog is loyal" I just can't help it but to feel you are underestimating him, put yourself in his shoes, even if this team makes the playoffs next year- would you re-sign?
For what? a borderline playoff team headlined by an aging Rondo? do you really think that's the best offer he is going to have?
Every team in the league will clear cap space to get him- and I promise you most will be more appealing.
Last thing about it, Cousins never went through FA, not even RFA, we maxed him before that... I don't know how you can be so sure what he'll do when the day comes- I would bet he isn't sure either.

3. Baja made a good post about contenders and pretend contenders, I will say that we are pretend contenders- just not for the title but for the playoffs.
If playoff contenders are pretend-pretend-contenders we are pretend-pretend-pretend-contenders... but if we play our cards right we can become pretend-pretend-contenders next year!

 

[Glenn]

I agree that there was enough talent to reach the playoffs. Neither Portland or Utah have a easy talent advantage over the Kings. However, system issues can derail things quite easily.

You also can't change the very top of things. A boss never fires themselves. And if that was the main issue, a roster tear-down would accomplish nothing.

We are dependent on Vivek understanding that he needs to step back and let Vlade take over. I'm not so sure Vivek can do that and clearly, I think Vlade is in over his head but Vlade knows it. I have faith that Vlade would bring in people that know how to run a basketball team. Vivek sure can't do it.

 

[VF21]

We are dependent on Vivek understanding that he needs to step back and let Vlade take over. I'm not so sure Vivek can do that and clearly, I think Vlade is in over his head but Vlade knows it. I have faith that Vlade would bring in people that know how to run a basketball team. Vivek sure can't do it.

I honestly think Vivek has done it already. But it could just be me looking for reasons to be hopeful.

 

[Glenn]

I honestly think Vivek has done it already. But it could just be me looking for reasons to be hopeful.

There is no way of knowing for sure but here's hoping. Vivek is the guy who said he likes to stir the pot occasionally.

 

[Bricklayer]

This post makes me feel a hell of a lot better, thank you.

People are flat pissing me off at this point with all the panic/hopelessness/let's just quit crap.

The situation is manageable. We have more opportunity to go forward in an organized fashion then we might have had in a decade, and NOW everybody wants to run around crying out about the sky falling.

 

[Kingster]

I will say that we are pretend contenders- just not for the title but for the playoffs.
If playoff contenders are pretend-pretend-contenders we are pretend-pretend-pretend-contenders... but if we play our cards right we can become pretend-pretend-contenders next year!

If we had a Hall of Fame on this board for awesome commentary, I'd definitely have this comment in there.

 

[VF21]

People are flat pissing me off at this point with all the panic/hopelessness/let's just quit poopoo.

The situation is manageable. We have more opportunity to go forward in an organized fashion then we might have had in a decade, and NOW everybody wants to run around crying out about the sky falling.

It's because things finally became just too bizarre to accept. Every time we turn around, there's another #Crazy coming out.

 

[KingMilz]

If we had a Hall of Fame on this board for awesome commentary, I'd definitely have this comment in there.

We do have a HOF on this board Cousins and Mike Malone (the 9-6 version) are in it

 

[Amit149]

People are flat pissing me off at this point with all the panic/hopelessness/let's just quit poopoo.

The situation is manageable. We have more opportunity to go forward in an organized fashion then we might have had in a decade, and NOW everybody wants to run around crying out about the sky falling.

It's because this season there were high expectations of finally making the playoffs and "proving the dumb national media wrong", so it hurts much more when we fail.

The other thing is that if last season all the rage went out on PDA and the Malone firing, this year Vlade is the face of the FO, so it makes it much harder to hate him.

The last thing is logic, it's another year and another losing record, and Cousins after this year has only 2 years on his contract- since this season is practically over, and most teams would like to trade a guy before he turns into an expiring- there is atleast some reason to panic.

It's beyond me what the great opportunity you see for us right now, since after re-signing Rondo (which is a move I'm pretty certain you are an advocate of) we'll have limited cap space to chase FA help, and we have no trade assets, and there's a big chance we also won't have our draft pick.

Just to comment on the "hopelessness" remark- I don't feel that way because I believe that this franchise has a future, with or without Cousins, and that those who feel like this team won't last a second without him are the one displaying hopelessness.
You can say- "this doesn't work, I want to rebuild it" without being "whiny", it's often a more committed and optimistic approach than the "this has to work otherwise we are doomed" alternative.

 

[Merdiesel]

People are flat pissing me off at this point with all the panic/hopelessness/let's just quit poopoo.

The situation is manageable. We have more opportunity to go forward in an organized fashion then we might have had in a decade, and NOW everybody wants to run around crying out about the sky falling.

You know I wasn't being sarcastic right?
The scenario you laid out is the absolute best route for this team.