Only way to rebuild

fansinceday1

fansinceday1

Starter
so, looking at the roster, I see our only real youth to build on being WCS and Ben.
Logic tells me that the only way to rebuild this (THE RIGHT WAY) is to trade our only valuable pieces, DMC and gay, and try to do this correctly. IMO, we're past the point of blowing this up, again, and trying to rebuild this around cousins. For one thing, I don't see him wanting to go through this again. Why should he? Do him a favor, trade him, and get a good haul for him. But they better not go Kings and f this up.

In my book they have 2 years to show me they are moving in the right direction. If they don't I'm done. I'm 42 and have been a Kings fan my whole life. I don't have it in me to be like those loveable loser cubs fans or those poor poor sap Cleveland Browns fans, forever rooting on their pathetic teams.
This team has sucked their entire Sacramento existence, with the exception of the early 2000's. Sports is suppose to be an escape and up to now it's been aggrevating and a huge fun suck. When I start feeling like a dupe for supporting this franchise, I think that's telling me I've just reached the end of my rope. If that makes me some horrible fan, so be it. Frankly I don't give a F anymore.
 
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It will be interesting to see how this progresses. Vivek and Vlade went all in this past offseason on building around Cousins and making a playoff push. Chances are, the Kings will fall short of that. I still have a very hard time believing they will bottom out again right when the new arena opens.

That said, you have to be realistic. Regardless of fault, at some point you may need to trade Cousins in order to get back something you can rebuild around. Boogie can walk in the summer of 2018. I think in order to maximize his value in any trade (I know you are never going to get enough, but you need to get as much as you can) you need to trade him with at least a year left on his deal, perhaps even more. Thus, the trade deadline 2017 is really the key date in my mind. If this team isn't on the right trajectory by then, I think you have to hit the reset button.

Again, I would be surprised if they do that this summer, although Casspi's comments yesterday do give me some pause. I guess Rondo can walk anyway, and I wouldn't be surprised if they trade Gay.
 
Here's the thing for me.

Cousins is a top ten player in the NBA. Arguably top 5. He's putting up HOF level numbers on offense and has improved his defense dramatically. A good organization doesn't trade a player like that, you build a contender around them. But the Kings aren't a good organization.

Which leads me to the Catch-22 about the Kings possibly moving him.

I don't trust the Kings to build a winning team around Cousins. Not even contending, just winning. And if they can't he'll almost certainly (and understandably) be out of Sacramento when his contract ends either by leaving as a free agent or forcing a trade which puts the Kings in the undesirable position of losing their leverage in any potential deals.

BUT

I also don't trust the Kings to rebuild with the pieces (likely to be young players and draft picks) they'd get from any Cousins deal. Rebuilds only really work when the net effect of acquiring picks, creating cap room and tanking gets you a stud in the draft and a piece or two to put around him. A Shaq. A Duncan. A LeBron. Very possibly a Ben Simmons. The Kings can't get a #1 overall pick as long as Philly has pick swaps and I don't trust them to get a superstar talent unless it's that "can't miss", consensus #1 guy. In short, I really doubt that the Kings can tank their way to a good pick and nab a kid that will one day be better than Boogie is now.

I don't have a lot of hope for this team being good in the next 3-4 years.

But the new arena looks really nice.
 
Trade DMC to build around what or who? The reason you let assets go is either to GET the guy you build around or the pieces to build around the guy you have. So who is the guy that makes for a better centerpiece than DMC? Maybe i am just dense but it seems tome that DMC is the guy you trade FOR not the guy you dump. Moreover I am highly skeptical of any talk of trading players untill we get a coach that is hired by the GM who gets the pieces THEY want in order to follow a common philosophy of play. So assuming Vlade is still the man in charge this off season at least let HIM pick a guy that will coach his way then worry about who we need on the court. We have a respectable roster but not for Karls uber-pace no D game.
 
The FO has made a terrible bed to sleep in.

That said, we had two real options if we wanted to build around Cousins in recent memory.

We could of kept Jarl Thompandry and looked to develop Nik, maybe even gave Williams another year, and looked to make minor moves with youth and stay focused on another draft.

Or add some veterans at the expense of delaying gratification.

Not much you can do now with a youth infusion unless you want to move Cousins, and doing so you are handicapped with pick swaps and a future first out.

You have to reasonably push for today if you want Cousins long term.

But some of you guys who are now now now about things, if we move Cousins in the future, should probably consider slow/patient development.

We had a shot too which really sucks. Tyreke was a solid pick, IT was looking pretty good, Cousins. And I'm not sure what we have at the moment.

But if we rebuild it could take several years, and then we are still not going to get a guy on Cousins caliber.

I wanted to look to get David Lee in a 3 team trade sending out Carl and Jason for expiring salary, while we developed the youth and looked to one more draft before going all in for example.

But they chose today.
 
Entity said:
signing Bellinelli and Kosta is going all in???
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Yes. And Rondo. They traded future considerations/assets to create cap space to sign veteran players. The only more "win now" moves they could have done was trade Ben and WCS (after the draft), and even then they likely took WCS because he was not a project and was ready to contribute from day one.

They may not have executed, but "all in" was the plan.
 
LPKingsFan said:
Yes. And Rondo. They traded future considerations/assets to create cap space to sign veteran players. The only more "win now" moves they could have done was trade Ben and WCS (after the draft), and even then they likely took WCS because he was not a project and was ready to contribute from day one.

They may not have executed, but "all in" was the plan.
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To be fair getting the cap space at the start of FA was going all in. Not the results of the cap space.

And its not finished either, they have the upcoming off season to tinker with too.
 
HndsmCelt said:
Trade DMC to build around what or who? The reason you let assets go is either to GET the guy you build around or the pieces to build around the guy you have. So who is the guy that makes for a better centerpiece than DMC? Maybe i am just dense but it seems tome that DMC is the guy you trade FOR not the guy you dump. Trade DMC to build around what or who? The reason you let assets go is either to GET the guy you build around or the pieces to build around the guy you have. So who is the guy that makes for a better centerpiece than DMC? Maybe i am just dense but it seems tome that DMC is the guy you trade FOR not the guy you dump. Moreover I am highly skeptical of any talk of trading players untill we get a coach that is hired by the GM who gets the pieces THEY want in order to follow a common philosophy of play. So assuming Vlade is still the man in charge this off season at least let HIM pick a guy that will coach his way then worry about who we need on the court. We have a respectable roster but not for Karls uber-pace no D game.
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Well, I imagine they will replace the coach and a couple pieces this summer, and then we shall see. But my point was that, if this team isn't on the right trajectory by next year's trade deadline, then you have press the reset button. Because, like it or not, whether or not you think you can get something that will eventually be half as good as him, Boogie walks in 2018 if this team doesn't improve. You cannot let that happen. This team has hemorrhaged enough assets as it is. Boogie with 1.5 years left on his deal is about peak value, and if you can't get it right his summer, then unfortunately you have to trade him then to maximize his value for this team long term.
 
HndsmCelt said:
Trade DMC to build around what or who? The reason you let assets go is either to GET the guy you build around or the pieces to build around the guy you have. So who is the guy that makes for a better centerpiece than DMC? Maybe i am just dense but it seems tome that DMC is the guy you trade FOR not the guy you dump. Moreover I am highly skeptical of any talk of trading players untill we get a coach that is hired by the GM who gets the pieces THEY want in order to follow a common philosophy of play. So assuming Vlade is still the man in charge this off season at least let HIM pick a guy that will coach his way then worry about who we need on the court. We have a respectable roster but not for Karls uber-pace no D game.
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Im right there with you. Ive thought the trade cousins crowd was out of their minds. However, they wanted to trade cousins cause in their minds he's the reason we suck.

Im of the mind of we better get rid of him now while we can still get something for him. If we play out the season and completely fall apart like it looks like might happen, he might demand a trade and we would be screwed. If he plays out his contract he's not staying here. I feel 100% comfortable saying that. We're screwed. IMO, the only logical path is to trade him now. They need to get their damn act together and make this work. Re-sign vlade or fire him. That's number 1. Then fire Karl and bring in someone who is legit and can grow with this new team. That's number 2.

They need to get this right. How many fans here can put up with another decade of ineptitude?
 
fansinceday1 said:
Im right there with you. Ive thought the trade cousins crowd was out of their minds. However, they wanted to trade cousins cause in their minds he's the reason we suck.

Im of the mind of we better get rid of him now while we can still get something for him. If we play out the season and completely fall apart like it looks like might happen, he might demand a trade and we would be screwed. If he plays out his contract he's not staying here. I feel 100% comfortable saying that. We're screwed. IMO, the only logical path is to trade him now. They need to get their damn act together and make this work. Re-sign vlade or fire him. That's number 1. Then fire Karl and bring in someone who is legit and can grow with this new team. They need to get this right. How many fans here can put up with another decade of ineptitude?
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I don't think there was ever a trade Cuz because he sucks group. I'm in the trade Cuz while his value is at an all time high, before he gets fed up and walks away for nothing camp. If they can build a team around and make DMC a winner here, don't trade him. But if not, we could get a lot back for DMC. The summer will be a huge indication for which way the GM decides to go. Hopefully they can surround DMC with a vet leader and some shooting and defense behind him.
 
fansinceday1 said:
Im right there with you. Ive thought the trade cousins crowd was out of their minds. However, they wanted to trade cousins cause in their minds he's the reason we suck.

Im of the mind of we better get rid of him now while we can still get something for him. If we play out the season and completely fall apart like it looks like might happen, he might demand a trade and we would be screwed. If he plays out his contract he's not staying here. I feel 100% comfortable saying that. We're screwed. IMO, the only logical path is to trade him now. They need to get their damn act together and make this work. Re-sign vlade or fire him. That's number 1. Then fire Karl and bring in someone who is legit and can grow with this new team. They need to get this right. How many fans here can put up with another decade of ineptitude?
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The "keep cousins under any circumstance" crowd in my opinion needed to be patient for 1 more year.

He was under contract, and taking the time to develop the youth without sending future assets out for 1 more season was probably the better call.

I think we should of went all in the upcoming off season. I didn't think we were ready yet.

But we've got little choice now, the pick swap options hurt a tank/rebuild scenario.

I think you have to try to win next season, and hopefully they do and it works.

I would wait till he is in his final year, offer him a max extension, and leave it up to him considering what we've done. I don't see the benefit of trading him at the deadline next season either because of the swaps.

The 2017-2018 year could be heartbreaking if he walks at the end of the season and we lose the pick.

Ideally we can find something workable in the off season however.
 
I think we should keep Cuz, WCS, DC, and maybe a few of the scrappy role players.

Rudy is soft as hell. Rondo is looking more and more like fools gold.

It would be interesting to see what a real coach could do with our roster. I think we'd be at least a 7 seed right now if we still had Malone.

We're shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic if we keep Karl though.
 
gunks said:
I think we should keep Cuz, WCS, DC, and maybe a few of the scrappy role players.

Rudy is soft as hell. Rondo is looking more and more like fools gold.

It would be interesting to see what a real coach could do with our roster. I think we'd be at least a 7 seed right now if we still had Malone.

We're shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic if we keep Karl though.
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We are in a good position in the upcoming season provided we invest wisely and get the proper coach.

No bad salary, flexibility. WCS has worked out.

We are 2 games above the 6th pick too, so if we keep losing maybe we will get lucky in the draft, or if we somehow make this season work 4 games back.

This will be the most important off season we have had in a long long time.
 
Iced Espresso said:
But we've got little choice now, the pick swap options hurt a tank/rebuild scenario.

I think you have to try to win next season, and hopefully they do and it works.

I would wait till he is in his final year, offer him a max extension, and leave it up to him considering what we've done. I don't see the benefit of trading him at the deadline next season either because of the swaps.

The 2017-2018 year could be heartbreaking if he walks at the end of the season and we lose the pick.

Ideally we can find something workable in the off season however.
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I think we'd know by next year's trade deadline whether the team as tweaked this summer worked or not. And you just can't, can't let Cousins enter a walk year with things unresolved here. As bad as it would hurt to get bumped a few spots in the draft via a swap with Philly, it would hurt even more to lose Cousins for nothing.
 
The most painful part of this all is that it's not that hard to build a winner around someone like Cousins! The blueprint is right there, as long as you're not distracted by the shiny sparkles of Golden State. That is why anyone stating Malone's 9-6 was a fluke (or mocking him as a GOAT coach) just doesn't get it. The greatness of Malone wasn't the record, it was HOW the team played, how they banded together and responded, win or lose, how they grew in front of our eyes (with a much worse roster, mind you). Watching losses under Malone was infinitely more rewarding than watching wins under Karl.

The silver lining here is that I'm 100% positive Vlade knows all that. Whatever factors that made him keep Karl so far will not be there this off-season. It's very hard to imagine this very same roster not performing at at least .500 with a coach that'd work to its strength. Anyone defending Karl at this point would be hard-pressed to name a single positive he's currently contributing to the team. You can say he's been undermined or whatever, but I can't even tell what the hell he even does anymore, on a day to day basis. It's not motivating players, it's not setting up half-court offensive sets, it's not addressing our defensive deficiencies, etc.

Bottom line - good defense and good coach allow you to play better than the sum of your parts (see Portland, Boston, etc.); terrible defense and coach do the opposite (see, well - you know). Until I see a coach that TRULY tries to play to the strength of this roster, I'm not ready to call for any sort of rebuild.

P.S. Putting "Cousins" and "trade" in the same sentence means we'll be set back another decade. Talk about mortgaging your future...
 
We need a new coach, and two SGs that can defend and shoot, Ben and Belli have been Black holes all season

Im ok with Cuz, WCS, Kufos and Acy for Bigs

Just leave Gay at the 3, casspi behind him

Rondo, DC should stay at PG

Elim Pace, get better at defending 3 pts, better defensive scheme, and 2 new SGs and Im good
 
CuzistanKing said:
Bottom line - good defense and good coach allow you to play better than the sum of your parts (see Portland, Boston, etc.); terrible defense and coach do the opposite (see, well - you know). Until I see a coach that TRULY tries to play to the strength of this roster, I'm not ready to call for any sort of rebuild.
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I don't disagree. But we just have this one last summer to pull it off.

CuzistanKing said:
P.S. Putting "Cousins" and "trade" in the same sentence means we'll be set back another decade. Talk about mortgaging your future...
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The best way to guarantee this franchise is set back another decade is to watch its best asset walk for nothing.
 
LPKingsFan said:
I don't disagree. But we just have this one last summer to pull it off.

The best way to guarantee this franchise is set back another decade is to watch its best asset walk for nothing.
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I think you underestimate just how loyal Cuz is. He's practically begging this franchise to show SOME signs of life, and as long as it does, as long as DMC feels like the organization has his back - he'll stick through almost anything. We have more time than you think, as long as we show Cuz that we're done wasting it.

Of course, there's always a chance that a certain shaka-wielding superfan gets bored of building things slowly and just does a firesale to sign GSW's 8th through 12th players to overpriced contracts.
 
I feel that the most important aspect will be getting the right coach. If it costs $8-$10 million per to bring in Thibs, you got to do it. That is the only way to make sure the players will be used correctly and defense will be a priority.

We have absolutely no time to try out some young and/or inexperienced coach like a Luke Walton, Kevin Ollie etc. We need someone that has shown that they can consistently get their team to compete on a daily basis and knows how to get guys to buy in. It doesn't have to be Thibs but it must be someone with a proven track record and focuses on using Cousins in the paint and playing defense.
 
LPKingsFan said:
The best way to guarantee this franchise is set back another decade is to watch its best asset walk for nothing.
Click to expand...

im willing to take that chance when:

a) said asset has shown no indication of wanting out, said asset is still playing hard, said asset has not checked out nor is said asset close to being a cancer, if anything said asset is what is keeping the locker room together

b) there is still time to get this right. Obviously time is running out but we can and should get there, if we don't then we deserve to lose said asset.
 
First, the only way swapping picks with Philly happens, is if we get lucky in the lottery and end up moving up into one of the top three spots, and Philly ends up behind us. In that scenario, yes, Philly would most certainly switch places with us, and yes, that would hurt if we happened to be in the top spot. But if we stay where we currently are, in the 10th spot or even move to the 9th spot, there's little chance of Philly switching places with us because they're in a better spot than we are. They have the worse record in the league. Hell, I'd pay them to switch with us then.

I think the first question you have to ask yourself when it comes to rebuilding this team, is what kind of team do you want to build? Do you want a team that's just good enough to make the playoffs, but has little or no chance of winning a championship anytime in the forseeable future. A pretend contender! If that's what you want, then bring in Mark Cuban as an adviser. He's torn down his team almost every year for the last five years to two common denominators, Dirk Nowitski and Rick Carlisle. Every year he goes to the freeagent dump yard and grabs just the right players to put around Dirk to make the playoffs. However, most knowledgeable people know they have little chance of winning a championship. Would that make you happy? Is that enough, because that appears to be what we were trying to do this year.

Or, do you actually want to build a team that has a chance to win a championship, and if so, were talking an entirely different approach. First, we have one huge piece of that puzzle in Cuz, unless we decide his worth to the team is less than the worth he might bring in the open market. But assuming we decide we keep Cuz, then where so we go from there? I like Gay, but he's not now, nor never will be, the number two guy. He's a made to order number three guy, and if we keep him, that's how we need to look at him. That means we don't have a number two guy, and no, Rondo isn't that guy and neither is Collison. So where do we get that number two guy? Either through freeagency, or the draft.

Durant has Westbrook. Curry has Thompson. The Spurs have, well, they're an example of the whole being better than the sum of the parts, but you get my drift. To build a championship team isn't easy, and it usually doesn't happen overnight. Sorry folks, but that's a fact. But it can happen, with a bit of luck, and someone that knows what the hell their doing (different discussion) in two to three years. In my opinion, if your intent isn't to build a championship team, then what the hell are you doing here. Isn't that the whole point, to win a championship? So you manage to scrap your way into the eighth spot just so you can lose four straight to the Warriors? Boy am I'm happy!! Really? Personally I have my sights set a bit higher than that, and it isn't going to happen this year, and probably, if we stay this course, not next year either.

There is nothing about this team that screams championship. We can't even see the top of the hill much less over the hill. This whole season has been fool's gold. Our best season so far has been 29 wins, and were supposed to believe that Vlade can turn this team into a winner in one offseason. Tell me you can improve the team, but don't tell me you can make it a contender. What we have now is a mess, and because it's a mess, it's going to be that much harder to get where we want to go. Do we cash in our chips and see what we can buy with what we end up with, or do we keep gambling and hope we somehow hit the jackpot. Personally, I go into a depression when I lose a quarter in a slot machine, so you wouldn't see me gambling.

When it comes to Cousins, I'm torn. A player like him doesn't come down the pike very often. That makes him very valuable to us, but it also makes him valuable to other teams. I think it would come down to what is offered. It would have to be an offer where my brain overrules my heart. And I don't know what that offer would be. Cousins is unique. Not only is he a great player, he's a very loyal player. Despite everything, he wants to stay here. Webber would have been screaming to high heaven by now. But, building a team is a cerebral exercise, not an emotional one. It doesn't matter how much you like a player, the team should come first. I know I'm only providing questions and not answers, but I think we as fans have to decide what we really want, and if we want an actual contender, then we have to realize that it's not going to happen tomorrow.

Win now, is a slogan, it's not a plan.
 
Ben is not a piece. And WCS is not the level of guy you rebuild around.

On top of that you a) currently have one of the best players in the 70 year history of the franchise, in his prime; and b) have impeded or traded away first round picks that won't let up until 2020.

So the "only way to rebuild" is not to rebuild at all. This is retooling time, not rebuilding time. There is plenty of potential in a Cousins/WCS frontcourt once a coach is acquired who will use it. There are multiple cheap "friends of Boogie" roleplayers (Casspi, Acy) to bring back for culture. There is a PG leading the league in assists who said he came here for Cuz, and whom Cuz respects. Almost all of the remaining pieces are on very reasonable contracts, about to get even more reasonable with the exploding cap, meaning they can have use whether you keep them or trade them to teams looking to control costs.

There's no rebuild, and the cubbard is not at all bare.

1) NEW COACH

2) Install Cuz/WCS as frontocurt

3) Keep Casspi and Acy as glue. Curry has another year left too.

4) Return of Rondo as 3rd starter

-------------------------------------------------------------

5) FREE AGENCY

6) Then here is where you do the non-coach work:
Gay = good contract to keep or trade
Collison = good contract to keep or trade
Belinelli = good contract to keep or trade
Koufos = good contract to keep or trade
McLemore = minor value

7) And just clear this out:
Anderson = gone
Butler = gone
Moreland = gone (probably, can;t stay healthy)
Dukan = gone


Enough with the panic already. There is plenty that can happen from our position. #1/#5 and #6 alone can dramatically alter our fate. We may already have our starting frontocurt, superstar, and starting PGs in town. That's the hard stuff. And with the cap making all of our contracts look very reasonable all of a sudden, we've got more assets than people realize.
 
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bajaden said:
I think the first question you have to ask yourself when it comes to rebuilding this team, is what kind of team do you want to build? Do you want a team that's just good enough to make the playoffs, but has little or no chance of winning a championship anytime in the forseeable future. A pretend contender! If that's what you want, then bring in Mark Cuban as an adviser. He's torn down his team almost every year for the last five years to two common denominators, Dirk Nowitski and Rick Carlisle. Every year he goes to the freeagent dump yard and grabs just the right players to put around Dirk to make the playoffs. However, most knowledgeable people know they have little chance of winning a championship. Would that make you happy? Is that enough, because that appears to be what we were trying to do this year.
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Honestly Baja I'd take the Mavs endless cycle of fruitless playoff runs. I really would. Especially since this season would mark 10 straight years without even making the playoffs.

I'd love for the Kings to be the next Spurs or Warriors or Lakers or Bulls but it'd be really nice just to be able to still be excited about my team in March instead of already talking about how to fix things in the offseason.

And here's the thing about being "pretend contenders". At least each year you get to talk about what changes might be made to become actual contenders instead of debating whether to blow things up completely and rebuild each year.
 
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