Offense?

[Gtronic]

What’s going to happen here? Within time, maybe 8-10 more games, can we run it with Thomas? Are we going to abandon the high post and let Bibby set everybody up?

What should we do? What direction are we going in?

 

[piksi]

We score eonugh to win games. We just do not defend enough

 

[Bricklayer]

What’s going to happen here? Within time, maybe 8-10 more games, can we run it with Thomas? Are we going to abandon the high post and let Bibby set everybody up?

What should we do? What direction are we going in?

Good question. I think Darius and Kenny have just enough passing ability to run our sets if we really wanted to, but not so much ability that you would really WANT to run our sets through them rather than have Bibby handle. With Vlade/Webb your big guys were actually also your best passers, so running the offense through them also maximized your ability to create. But Darius/Kenny, while solid passers for big guys, are not as good as Bibby, so running the offense through them now isn't your most efficient approach.

Suspect we were planning to base everything off of Brad and Bibby wth Brad in the high post, pick and rolls, etc. But you certainly wouldn't have known it from the few games we had after the trade where Brad was not involved (and there I think its important to remember that Geoff made the trade and Rick and the coaches have just been scrambling to react to it ever since, so what Geoff had in mind may not be relevant to what Rick has decided to do). Also was interesting to see a few Peja-in-the-high-post sets last week. Suspect we'll see a hybrid offense develop in these last few weeks as the new guys learn the sets, but with so many new players, guys coming back from injury etc. wouldn't expect a smooth fully fleshed out system to really develop until next year.

 

[starks]

Pick and roll biby-peja could be very effective...especially high one, on three point line

 

[punisher]

It was clear from the day Webber trade was done Kings offense will in the long run change dramatically...and I feel it's for the best now. Bibby, in my opinion, is perfectly capable of running the top show in the league, it just takes time for all of them to get a feel for their game now...meaning offense will further evolve, somehow I'm pretty sure of it...
All of them have plenty of time/games before the playoff kicks in, I've said it before, it's the system deployed/utilized here that makes the difference....lots of off-ball movement, unselfishness, the guy in a best position takes the shot, not the guy with the fattest check, 'till crunch-time that is

 

[Bricklayer]

Pick and roll biby-peja could be very effective...especially high one, on three point line

The problem with that, as another poster pointed out just recently, is that a Bibby/Peja pick and roll does not really create mismatches that are at the core of the pick and roll concept. At best you get a SF guarding Bibby, and a PG guarding Peja. But of course Peja does not have a post game and is nto terribly effective attacking the rim in traffic, so the whole "roll" part of the concept isn't very effective either. Might be able to run a little pick and pop with Peja stepping out and hopefully getting a player a few inches shorter guarding him, but the overall dynamics of that play are far more effective when its one big guy and one little guy so that you end up with a PF/C taking a PG into the post, or a PF/C trying to stay with a PG on the perimeter.

 

[Warhawk]

The problem with that, as another poster pointed out just recently, is that a Bibby/Peja pick and roll does not really create mismatches that are at the core of the pick and roll concept. At best you get a SF guarding Bibby, and a PG guarding Peja. But of course Peja does not have a post game and is nto terribly effective attacking the rim in traffic, so the whole "roll" part of the concept isn't very effective either. Might be able to run a little pick and pop with Peja stepping out and hopefully getting a player a few inches shorter guarding him, but the overall dynamics of that play are far more effective when its one big guy and one little guy so that you end up with a PF/C taking a PG into the post, or a PF/C trying to stay with a PG on the perimeter.

Agreed, but I'm sure that some variant of this could be worked on to free up shots for Peja. Probably not something you'd run TOO often, but a nice little option to hold in your Bibby "bag-o-tricks"....

 

[burekijogurt]

I've noticed in the last game that Skinner's passing has improved. I think he is already a better passer than Kenny Thomas. The problem is he cannot hit that jumper.

 

[ReinadelosReys]

Good question. I think Darius and Kenny have just enough passing ability to run our sets if we really wanted to, but not so much ability that you would really WANT to run our sets through them rather than have Bibby handle. With Vlade/Webb your big guys were actually also your best passers, so running the offense through them also maximized your ability to create. But Darius/Kenny, while solid passers for big guys, are not as good as Bibby, so running the offense through them now isn't your most efficient approach.

Rick Aldeman hit on this very subject last night in his post game. He mentioned how these new guys might be able to make the pass, but its the obvious pass. The Kings under RA and running the offense they used to went beyond that. What made the O so good was the fact that Vlade and Chris were extremely smart basketball players and had excellent court vision. They could see the first, obvious pass wasn't there, read the defense and then find the next option. I don't think that court vision is something that you can teach.

Watching the Kings these past games its strange to see them struggle/work as much as they have on offense to get a good shot, the reason is (mostly due) because of the above.

 

[ReinadelosReys]

I've noticed in the last game that Skinner's passing has improved. I think he is already a better passer than Kenny Thomas. The problem is he cannot hit that jumper.

So what, I've seen Greg Ostertag make some nice passes. Skinner is not a better passer than Thomas.

 

[burekijogurt]

So what, I've seen Greg Ostertag make some nice passes. Skinner is not a better passer than Thomas.

So what, he will be soon.

 

[Bricklayer]

Rick Aldeman hit on this very subject last night in his post game. He mentioned how these new guys might be able to make the pass, but its the obvious pass. The Kings under RA and running the offense they used to went beyond that. What made the O so good was the fact that Vlade and Chris were extremely smart basketball players and had excellent court vision. They could see the first, obvious pass wasn't there, read the defense and then find the next option. I don't think that court vision is something that you can teach.

Rick seems to have gotten quite chatty recently. And in this case I agree with him 100%. You can teach fundamentals, and coach guys to be unselfish, but there comes a point where some guys are just special talents in certain areas and some aren't.

BTW, regarding Skinner -- he has made a few good pases in the last few games, and that could be a real boon. Don't expect him to ever be able to run our full array of stuff, but he's a smart guy and he's showing more overall skill than I think I've seen from him before. Could be a real key because we desperately need his banging and hustle, and showing a little skill along with it may be just enough to give Rick confidence in keeping him on the floor. Still intrigued by the idea of a Brad/Skinner frontline -- actually big enough to be a real NBA frontcourt and with skills that may compliment each other rather than be duplicative.

 

[LPKingsFan]

The problem with that, as another poster pointed out just recently, is that a Bibby/Peja pick and roll does not really create mismatches that are at the core of the pick and roll concept. At best you get a SF guarding Bibby, and a PG guarding Peja. But of course Peja does not have a post game and is nto terribly effective attacking the rim in traffic, so the whole "roll" part of the concept isn't very effective either. Might be able to run a little pick and pop with Peja stepping out and hopefully getting a player a few inches shorter guarding him, but the overall dynamics of that play are far more effective when its one big guy and one little guy so that you end up with a PF/C taking a PG into the post, or a PF/C trying to stay with a PG on the perimeter.

Yeah, that was generally the response I got when I posed this question earler. But, I think the pick and pop would be interesting. Dirk used it to kill us, and granted he's got a post game far greater than Peja's, but for the pick and pop I don't know how essential that is.

 

[starks]

The problem with that, as another poster pointed out just recently, is that a Bibby/Peja pick and roll does not really create mismatches that are at the core of the pick and roll concept. At best you get a SF guarding Bibby, and a PG guarding Peja. But of course Peja does not have a post game and is nto terribly effective attacking the rim in traffic, so the whole "roll" part of the concept isn't very effective either. Might be able to run a little pick and pop with Peja stepping out and hopefully getting a player a few inches shorter guarding him, but the overall dynamics of that play are far more effective when its one big guy and one little guy so that you end up with a PF/C taking a PG into the post, or a PF/C trying to stay with a PG on the perimeter.

I don't understand how peja cannot score over nelson for example either 12 footer or from three point line.....

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't understand how peja cannot score over nelson for example either 12 footer or from three point line.....

Well given that small quick defenders have always been what have bothered Peja the most over the years, I'm not really sure I would put money on it (well, nelson doesn't guard anybody, so maybe him). But in general, not exactly a perfect offensive situation for Peja -- certainly not the 12 footer. I think Peja has certain mechanics that he needs to get right in order to really shoot well. And small aggressive defenders get up into him, don't let him get his feet and balance correctly, and he struggles. On the other hand big lumbering guys give him the space he needs and then its lights out.

 

[SacTownKid]

I did see a lot of Skinner and Thomas in the high post and I think they did a pretty decent job. Are they Webber and Vlade? NO WAY. But were Webber and Vlade half the defenders and athletes these guys are? NO WAY. You have to give and take. Petrie obviously feels this team needs to be headed in a defensive direction. Can't say I don't agree.

 

[BigWaxer]

Well yes and no. My opinion is that if we had Peja, Miller, Bibby scoring 20+ a night and the wildcard CAT hitting 15-20 then we have more then enough points with bench production. We also add some defense and rebounding. It is sure nice to see that NOW after the trade anyone who goes in the lane gets contested.

 

[Entity]

In regaurds to the offense running through Thomas and his vision vs. Vlade/Webb. Thomas has something Vlade and Webb haven't had for 3 or 4 years. That is the ability not only to take that 18 ft jumper to but drive to the basket and finish. That should make up for some of the passing inabilities. I wouldn't want it going to him 100% of the time like it did Webb but a healthy 30% would mix our offense up enough to throw the other team off balance defensively and lead to some Higher percentage shots.

 

[HndsmCelt]

This last game seems to indicate that the coaching staff is changing the offense to use the tallents at hand. Pedja is put inot motion more and the bigs are setting screns with out handleing the ball. Several palys seemed desinged to use Bibby's penetration to open up shots for Skiner and Darius again with less passing by the bigs. I thinkm the offense will be fine, that has never relay been the Kings problem after all.