Offense or defense? (split from Spurs game thread)

[Luv4Kings]

If you think about it, any time an opponent is able to successfully get to the basket and score, someone on our team has made a "mistake". And, all things considered, we need some of those mistakes. I'd hate to see basketball games end up with scores of 1-0.

The other thing to consider is "good offense always beats good defense". In just about any sport, that's probably true. The person on offense always has the advantage of knowing his next move. The person on defense is always at the disadvantage of trying to guess the next move.

That's why even the best defensive teams can't keep the opposing team from scoring at least about 90 points a game.

 

[VF21]

The other thing to consider is "good offense always beats good defense".

Uh-oh...

VF21 ducks and runs for cover.

 

[piksi]

The other thing to consider is "good offense always beats good defense".

for a game or so maybe - in the long run - never and not even then

 

[M_Barragan]

Defense never has a bad night. Your shooting does. That's why defense always trumps offense.

 

[Luv4Kings]

Defense never has a bad night. Your shooting does. That's why defense always trumps offense.

Obviously if your offense sucks (even for one game) then you won't win.

The point is, when your offense is "good", it will beat "good defense".

In 82 games, if your offense is great but you can't play a lick of defense, you will also lose games.

I'm talking about single plays, good offense vs. good defense, good offense has the advantage. No team in the league plays perfect offense or defense for an entire 48 minutes much less all 82 games.

 

[Widowmaker2k]

Obviously if your offense sucks (even for one game) then you won't win.

The point is, when your offense is "good", it will beat "good defense".

In 82 games, if your offense is great but you can't play a lick of defense, you will also lose games.

I'm talking about single plays, good offense vs. good defense, good offense has the advantage. No team in the league plays perfect offense or defense for an entire 48 minutes much less all 82 games.

Sorry, I have to disagree. Great defense always beats great offense. Through 82 games, you're right, offense can lead to a very good record (ask the Mavericks or the Suns), but come playoff time, when you actually play other teams in a series, defense is the key. Defense is simply more reliable. A great defense can and will figure out a great offense, it almost never works the other way around.

 

[Bricklayer]

I think there are two seperate concepts here.

1) the team concept. And there, no. Across almsot every sport I can think of, defense always has and always will trump. Defense wins titles became a cliche for a reason.

2) individual play. And there, in the NBA as opposed to other sports, the cliche has always been that good offense trumps good defense. Individually. That MJ, no matter what Joe Dumars did, was going to win that battle and score more often than not. And that's largely true one on one -- the truly great offensive players almost always have the edge over even the truly great defensive players.

Now none of that really applies to the discussion which spawned this -- Manu didn't have to make a terribly great move there because nobody thought he was their man. It actually much more applies to what we've seen with Tyreke -- everybody knows he wants to drive, they're ready for it, and yet it still doesn't matter. Without help no single defender can guard him.

 

[Chupacabra]

Hence the expression "defense wins championships".

 

[Aenadin]

Offense is the one that fills those seats.....

Defense is what keeps those seats filled....

 

[est.1999]

I was just gonna say that individual offense always beats individual offense. But team defense cab beat team offense. But it still depends of the type of offense. I think Phoenix's offense can get shut down but how bout the lakers offense? Completely different but the lakers' offense is alot more complex but at the same time
it's a traditional in and out offense.

 

[Prince_XY]

I think this is a no brainer. It is just like the chicken and egg thingy.

The positive total net effect of both is needed to win. So, you cannot really just say defense is more important, or the other way around. It is just so stupid that you can win without one, or the other.

But of course, it is way too much entertaining if you see defense dominating rather than offense. That is just for me of course.

 

[mac]

I'm sitting on the fence between offence and defence. Doh.....

 

[Kingster]

You've got to score to even be competitive. But you have to play defense to win championships.

 

[AriesMar27]

It depends on the team, elite teams that can score use their offense to dictate their defense. The lakers are a good example of that, their offense is so hard to defend that opposing teams have to do too much just to keep up and when that happens the lakers don't have to do much on defense besides rebound the ball.

Pau is soft
fisher is soft
artest really hasn't done much this season
kobe doesn't really defend players his reputation does.
Bynum occasionally blocks shots but that's it, his man defense is pretty weak

but when they are all clicking it's imossible to stop and you are forced to try to outscore them. Just don't miss any threes or Kobe or brown will have a easy fast break dunk.

 

[Luv4Kings]

I think there are two seperate concepts here.

1) the team concept. And there, no. Across almsot every sport I can think of, defense always has and always will trump. Defense wins titles became a cliche for a reason.

2) individual play. And there, in the NBA as opposed to other sports, the cliche has always been that good offense trumps good defense. Individually. That MJ, no matter what Joe Dumars did, was going to win that battle and score more often than not. And that's largely true one on one -- the truly great offensive players almost always have the edge over even the truly great defensive players.

Now none of that really applies to the discussion which spawned this -- Manu didn't have to make a terribly great move there because nobody thought he was their man. It actually much more applies to what we've seen with Tyreke -- everybody knows he wants to drive, they're ready for it, and yet it still doesn't matter. Without help no single defender can guard him.

Yes, I was referring to individual play. There is no such thing as a Kobe Stopper.

As for "defense wins championships"... nah. Balance wins championships. If defense wins then the Knicks would have won a ton of them under VanGundy.

Certainly offense wins a lot of games, but offense alone doesn't win championships, re Suns and Mavs.

Balance...

However, again, I was referring to individual play during a game.

 

[Reem]

Obviously if your offense sucks (even for one game) then you won't win.

The point is, when your offense is "good", it will beat "good defense".

In 82 games, if your offense is great but you can't play a lick of defense, you will also lose games.

I'm talking about single plays, good offense vs. good defense, good offense has the advantage. No team in the league plays perfect offense or defense for an entire 48 minutes much less all 82 games.

in the NBA is quite different, but in europe you can see a lot of games end when the winning team had a terrible offence but the defence was strong as hell, the difference is the approach, I've watched NBA games from the 80's and most of it was all about the offence, in the last years it started to change, I guess the euro guys in the NBA have something to do with it, also the coaches who watch the euroleague and learn some.. personally I think the NBA is a way better show with amazing athletes and that's why you can rely mosly on your offence but the kings have quite good offensive players, they just need a better understanding between each other in their deffence.

 

[Bricklayer]

Yes, I was referring to individual play. There is no such thing as a Kobe Stopper.

As for "defense wins championships"... nah. Balance wins championships. If defense wins then the Knicks would have won a ton of them under VanGundy.

Certainly offense wins a lot of games, but offense alone doesn't win championships, re Suns and Mavs.

Balance...

However, again, I was referring to individual play during a game.

No, its really not balance. You can win being a good defensive team that also plays good offense, in which case you are a truly great team. Or you can win being a good defensive team that barely gets by on offense, and doesn't care. In which case you ae Detroit or San Antonio, lower tier champions. You can NEVER win being a good offensive team that plays bad defense. The defense is the constant. The base. The offense is the spice.

 

[Eclipse]

Hmm, I think I understand what your asking. Individual offensive guy vs. Individual defensive guy?

If so, then hypothetically since Kobe Bryant is a great offensive and defensive player, if you pit one against the other (so Kobe vs Kobe), who would be the victor? I guess I can't really answer that because I don't know what to base the victory on. Can't be shots made vs shots blocked. Since the average NBA field goal percentage is between 40-45%, maybe if the defense kept the offense below a certain field goal percentage, like 35%? Or maybe it comes down to the final shot, and whether or not the offensive player makes it. But that's not a good indicator if you factor in the average field goal percentage. Yes, I'm probably thinking way too much into this, or simply missing the point.

 

[acisking]

The other thing to consider is "good offense always beats good defense". In just about any sport, that's probably true. The person on offense always has the advantage of knowing his next move. The person on defense is always at the disadvantage of trying to guess the next move.

That's why even the best defensive teams can't keep the opposing team from scoring at least about 90 points a game.

The offensive-defensive balance is peculiar in basketball. Great offensive players beat great defensive players for the reasons you mentioned. However, great defensive teams beat great offensive teams provided they can score at an average clip. In the last 20 plus years the only two championship teams I can think of that weren't exceptional defensively were the 2006 Heat and the 2009 Lakers - and even those teams were at least average defensively.

 

[acisking]

No, its really not balance. You can win being a good defensive team that also plays good offense, in which case you are a truly great team. Or you can win being a good defensive team that barely gets by on offense, and doesn't care. In which case you ae Detroit or San Antonio, lower tier champions. You can NEVER win being a good offensive team that plays bad defense. The defense is the constant. The base. The offense is the spice.

Well put.

 

[Luv4Kings]

The offensive-defensive balance is peculiar in basketball. Great offensive players beat great defensive players for the reasons you mentioned. However, great defensive teams beat great offensive teams provided they can score at an average clip. In the last 20 plus years the only two championship teams I can think of that weren't exceptional defensively were the 2006 Heat and the 2009 Lakers - and even those teams were at least average defensively.

Exactly, balance. Maybe not 50/50 but at least average at one or the other.

On one on one play, if Offensive Kobe played Defensive Kobe, offensive Kobe would beat him most of the time. Again, it simply logical. Offensive Kobe knows his next move, Defensive Kobe has to guess.

 

[Luv4Kings]

I'm not talking about teams, seasons, or championships. A lot goes into making a championship team. More than just offense and defense. Luck, health, coaching, character, team morale - lots of things to consider.

I'm also not suggesting one shouldn't concentrate on defense or shouldn't concentrate on offense. Concentrate on both.

I'm simply talking one on one in a game situation. Good offense beats good defense.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

And that's great, if your ambition is to be a featured highlight on Sportscenter...

 

[Luv4Kings]

And that's great, if your ambition is to be a featured highlight on Sportscenter...

I didn't even start this thread. It was just an off-comment on a game thread that someone broke out. The comment wasn't meant to start a debate on the nature of championship teams.

 

[VF21]

I didn't even start this thread. It was just an off-comment on a game thread that someone broke out. The comment wasn't meant to start a debate on the nature of championship teams.

We often split posts off into new threads if we think it might encourage further debate/discussion. That's kinda what message boards are for.

 

[AriesMar27]

Exactly, balance. Maybe not 50/50 but at least average at one or the other.

On one on one play, if Offensive Kobe played Defensive Kobe, offensive Kobe would beat him most of the time. Again, it simply logical. Offensive Kobe knows his next move, Defensive Kobe has to guess.

offensive kobe would destroy defensive kobe.... especially one on one. but thats not fair because kobe is a finished product, he knows too much... if you said offensive lebron and defensive lebron then the defensive lebron might stand a chance to make it 50/50... offensive kobe would beat defensive kobe 80/20... unless offensive kobe was shooting a three or one hell of a fade away jumper to make things harder for himself because he wanted a challenge. if its just buckets offensive kobe has that battle. defensive kobe would probably give up because he would know better.

man... that boy good...

 

[swisshh]

Plus, defensive Kobe hasn't existed for about five years.

When I think success, it isn't all defense, but it is certainly a major part. Being good defensively and efficient offensively is the key. This is why Lebron has no rings yet, because the Cavs offense is horrible. No matter their defesnive prowess, they screw themselves over on the offensive end. If you make turnovers and take bad shots on offense, it compromises your defense. There is a sense of balance, but a particular kind of balance. You don't need D'Antoni level offense, but you do need to be able to run a good set at end of games and in times where you're struggling.

 

[AriesMar27]

Plus, defensive Kobe hasn't existed for about five years.

When I think success, it isn't all defense, but it is certainly a major part. Being good defensively and efficient offensively is the key. This is why Lebron has no rings yet, because the Cavs offense is horrible. No matter their defesnive prowess, they screw themselves over on the offensive end. If you make turnovers and take bad shots on offense, it compromises your defense. There is a sense of balance, but a particular kind of balance. You don't need D'Antoni level offense, but you do need to be able to run a good set at end of games and in times where you're struggling.

exactly... great offense and good defense will beat great defense and good offense more times than not. lebron on the lakers would be infinitely better than kobe on the cavs... the lakers are already a good defensive team, with great offensive weapons... pau, odom and a slew of three point shooters. the cavs are a great defensive team with sub-par offensive players, ilgauskus, west, varaejo... mo williams is the 2nd best player and he is inconsistent as hell... pau is a given, odom more times than not is a given, same goes for fisher... i always found it amazing that the lakers bench seems to make every three pointer when they need to. the cavs couldnt do that last season against orlando. mo and west missed so many open shots that its crazy. but we were all watching lebron drop 38/8/8 and losing... he was that teams offense, thats why they say you need at least 2 stars... lebron is almost 2 stars on his own, but the team just isnt on his level.

 

[Telemachus]

Hence the expression "defense wins championships".

That quote doesn't tell the whole story. If a team has a great "offense" or a great "defense" but sucks at the other end, then they will lose in the end. I don't care how great your defense is, it will rarely take you all the way if you can't play offense. The same can be said the other way around.

If you look at most championship teams, they are good at both ends of the court. Most of the time, they excell more at the offesive end IMO but there are plenty that excell more on defense as well. No matter how you slice it, you need a combination of both to win it all. Don't get me wrong, you can always find a rare exception, but they are very rare.