Oden is done for the season

[Vlade4GM]

Howard is not a star go-to offensive player, that's for sure, but he's still a pretty darn good offensive player that's still improving. I think Oden could've been better than Howard because he had much better defensive instincts than Howard. Howard is long and explosive, but he's really just a pogo stick swatter on the defensive end.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

From what I remember Dikembe was considered his "floor" and that many expected him to become Shaq like dominant, whatever limitations he had shown in his year at tOSU were written off as the result of his wrist injury. Its pretty easy to look back in hindsight but the guy was the most hyped player entering the league in the 00's aside from LeBron.

The interesting question is what do they do with him next year since they have the right to match offers. It is certain that he will get more than a few even if they are only at MLE level. There will probably be pressure on him to sign for cheap because he "owes" Portland but if he can secure 3 years at top dollar would anyone blame him? If he rebounds he's still 2 months from 23, but he could very well never play another NBA game again. I have a feeling he is going to make someone look like a genius or a fool next year.

 

[Bricklayer]

Ok, but no one has disagreed with me about whether or not Dwight is a superstar.

I think the bigger question is can ANYBODY win the title alone. LeBron, A.I., Durant anybody? The only guy I ever saw do it was Hakeem, who's second best player was either Otis Thorpe or Vernon Maxwell in the first title run. Everybody else has at the very least needed an elite wingman.

And once you get to the point that basically NOBODY can do it alone, or nobody but one of the 10 or 12 greatest of all time, well then can Howard win a title? Sure he can. In fact outside of superstar level players, the other great constant amonsgt title teams has always been size/ability to dominate inside. He will need help, like everybody else. But he's so good at the inside stuff that until he falls off wiht age the Magic are eternally going to be elite level perimeter complement from winngin it all. And they are hardly chopped liver right now. That goes for all this LeBron stuff too BTW -- winning 60+ multiple years, getting to the NBA Finals, is hardly failure from the persspective of a franchise that has done neither in half a century.

And bringing it back to Oden, if he could indeed have been a Howard like presence then could he have won titles? Absolutely. And in particular in Portland where they already had a perimeter guy who might have been good enough to be the other guy in the duo in Roy, as well as Aldridge and a whole swath of other young talent. He was the sure thing, barring what happened of course. Fact is much as I've been a Durant jocker since his college days, adn love how he has conducted himself this summer, guys like Durant are the guys who have almost no history of winning rings. Jumpshooters, pure scorers who don't create for teammates. I'm not even sure how far back I'd have to go to find a guy like as the main man on a title team. Dr. J was mostly a pure scorer, but on that team he was also probably the #2 to prime Moses. So the 70s maybe..but Barry, selfish or not, also was a 6 asssit a game type guy, and that was the ultimate fluke title. Earlier still...I'm not sure I can find one before the 50s when my NBA knowledge peters out. You would dance like you had won the MegaMilions lottery if your team drafted him, but he's almsot going to be cutting new ground if he ever pulls off a title.

 

[Boogie-havoc]

Portland had Roy and Aldridge when they thougth of who to pick.. now you wanna tell me that with a ball handler amazing scorer as Roy, and an offensive big like Aldridge, you would go for Durant and not Oden?

Thats bull, and anyone who thinks that know it.. what I ment about injurys in the previuse post is it wasn't something major, like say Cousins red flags in this current draft.. atleast by how everyone pictured it in the media and all the talks invovling it.

Oden was just about a perfect fit for Portland, and anyone passing him and going for Durant with thier team is lieing or just blind.

 

[Vlade4GM]

From what I remember Dikembe was considered his "floor" and that many expected him to become Shaq like dominant, whatever limitations he had shown in his year at tOSU were written off as the result of his wrist injury. Its pretty easy to look back in hindsight but the guy was the most hyped player entering the league in the 00's aside from LeBron.

The interesting question is what do they do with him next year since they have the right to match offers. It is certain that he will get more than a few even if they are only at MLE level. There will probably be pressure on him to sign for cheap because he "owes" Portland but if he can secure 3 years at top dollar would anyone blame him? If he rebounds he's still 2 months from 23, but he could very well never play another NBA game again. I have a feeling he is going to make someone look like a genius or a fool next year.

I don't think he was hyped to be Shaq-like dominant offensively, maybe Ewing-like at the very best. I often compared him to Ewing back then, not offensively, but his size and athleticism was similar to Ewing and they were both shot blocking extraordinares. I think people back then acknowledged that he was a pretty mechanical offensive player at that time, he didn't show a great touch around the basket (although it was decent), and he didn't have much going on as far as post moves go. Shaq was similar coming out of college, but Shaq was a special case. They did blame his lack of production on his wrist injury, and it's probably true to an extent, but his offensive game was still fairly raw in the analysts' eyes.

I doubt they extend a qualifying offer to him since it's like 9 million. I'm pretty sure that someone will suck him up, it's almost a guarantee that someone will give him a decent sized deal on the off chance that he can make it back and be solid back up big with some upside. I don't know if he'll sign a cheap deal with Portland out of guilt, and I don't know if Portland even wants the memory of that number 1 pick still looming around.

 

[bajaden]

From what I remember Dikembe was considered his "floor" and that many expected him to become Shaq like dominant, whatever limitations he had shown in his year at tOSU were written off as the result of his wrist injury. Its pretty easy to look back in hindsight but the guy was the most hyped player entering the league in the 00's aside from LeBron.

The interesting question is what do they do with him next year since they have the right to match offers. It is certain that he will get more than a few even if they are only at MLE level. There will probably be pressure on him to sign for cheap because he "owes" Portland but if he can secure 3 years at top dollar would anyone blame him? If he rebounds he's still 2 months from 23, but he could very well never play another NBA game again. I have a feeling he is going to make someone look like a genius or a fool next year.

Considering that the owner wanted to go cheaper and for less years with Roy, and the fact that Pritchard didn't listen, and signed Roy to a long term contract, which cost Prichard his job by the way, I doubt he's about to get bit twice with Oden. I'm sure they'll make him an offer, but its likely someone out there will make a bigger one. Personally I wasn't that willing to deal for him before this last injury. Now, I wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole. Unless its one year guaranteed and 4 years with a team option.

 

[bajaden]

I don't think he was hyped to be Shaq-like dominant offensively, maybe Ewing-like at the very best. I often compared him to Ewing back then, not offensively, but his size and athleticism was similar to Ewing and they were both shot blocking extraordinares. I think people back then acknowledged that he was a pretty mechanical offensive player at that time, he didn't show a great touch around the basket (although it was decent), and he didn't have much going on as far as post moves go. Shaq was similar coming out of college, but Shaq was a special case. They did blame his lack of production on his wrist injury, and it's probably true to an extent, but his offensive game was still fairly raw in the analysts' eyes.

I doubt they extend a qualifying offer to him since it's like 9 million. I'm pretty sure that someone will suck him up, it's almost a guarantee that someone will give him a decent sized deal on the off chance that he can make it back and be solid back up big with some upside. I don't know if he'll sign a cheap deal with Portland out of guilt, and I don't know if Portland even wants the memory of that number 1 pick still looming around.

I agree with you. I don't think anyone thought of Mutombo as an offensive player. I know I didn't. He simply never had any touch around the basket and almost looked mechanical when making post moves. Shaq was a much better athlete and just as tall. Not many players could balloon out to 350 pounds and still be athletic enough to dominate every other center in the league.

Someone said that they didn't think it was a mistake to draft Oden. Well, obviously, based on the results, it was. But I agree that at the time he was the consensus number 1 pick and there probably would have been a riot in Portland if they hadn't drafted him. All I was pointing out, is that there were those within the orginization that had concerns about Oden's long term health. Unfortunately for the Blazers they ended up being right.

 

[Superman]

Career average: 15.1 pts, on 44 percent shooting.

And in his prime, he'd give you 20 a game, and drop five or six assists on you. Not exactly a slouch defensively. We're not talking about Dikembe Mutombo here.

And yes, he won 11 rings.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I don't think he was hyped to be Shaq-like dominant offensively, maybe Ewing-like at the very best.

No, maybe not Shaq's offensive numbers but people were using Shaq as the example to describe the dominance he was expected to bring. He would be the dominant big man for his era and a lock for multiple championships. As opposed to the Dikembe "floor" in which he'd "only" be the dominant defensive specialist for the era.

 

[Superman]

he's almsot going to be cutting new ground if he ever pulls off a title.

Durant? I don't know. If Rip Hamilton and Chauncey Billups can do it, I think Durant and Westbrook would be able to, but that team would have to form a defensive identity and be able to guard the rim. And I know how flukish the 2004 Pistons were in a historical sense, but Durant > Rip, and Westbrook could easily be equal to Billups in a year or two. I wouldn't write them off, but they are still a piece or two away.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Considering that the owner wanted to go cheaper and for less years with Roy, and the fact that Pritchard didn't listen, and signed Roy to a long term contract, which cost Prichard his job by the way, I doubt he's about to get bit twice with Oden. I'm sure they'll make him an offer, but its likely someone out there will make a bigger one. Personally I wasn't that willing to deal for him before this last injury. Now, I wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole. Unless its one year guaranteed and 4 years with a team option.

I'm certainly not suggesting a max deal, just wondering if they'll make the qualifying offer to keep matching rights, or attempt a low cost extension if that is still an option.

From the articles I read on Pritchard's firing, I don't think it was so much that they gave Roy the max deal as much as it was that Pritchard basically came to the table saying "Ok, you're a max player let's get this done quickly" and didn't even attempt negotiations that signalled to the Vulcan group that he viewed their money as an unlimited resource. But it sounded like the behind the scenes and eventually going public with unhappiness about his pay, including negotiating with other teams under false pretenses to get raises for him and his buddies is what really caused the rift.

 

[gunks]

Durant? I don't know. If Rip Hamilton and Chauncey Billups can do it, I think Durant and Westbrook would be able to, but that team would have to form a defensive identity and be able to guard the rim. And I know how flukish the 2004 Pistons were in a historical sense, but Durant > Rip, and Westbrook could easily be equal to Billups in a year or two. I wouldn't write them off, but they are still a piece or two away.

Rip and Chauncey couldnt have done it without DPOY big man anchor Ben Wallace. Ben Wallace had worse offense than rookie Oden btw. But he'd also give you 12rpg, 2stls, 3blks. Everyone thought Snaq would dominate the Pistons that series, Big Ben made life VERY difficult for him. Pistons won it with defense, really flustered the "super" Lakers. Best finals ever.

 

[Vlade4GM]

No, maybe not Shaq's offensive numbers but people were using Shaq as the example to describe the dominance he was expected to bring. He would be the dominant big man for his era and a lock for multiple championships. As opposed to the Dikembe "floor" in which he'd "only" be the dominant defensive specialist for the era.

I don't really remember Shaq as a comparison in any sense, it was more along the lines of Ewing and Robinson, but it's not really that important. I think people overprojected his offense a bit, but he was only 19 when he was drafted, there was still a lot of time for him to improve upon his offensive game. He did seem to have all the drive and work ethic necessary to improve. I expected him to be around 18-22 ppg in his prime, with Mutombo defense. Mutombo was a very impactful player defensively, you add 20 ppg to that and you have a hell of a player. If you give me an Oden without the injuries, I still just might take him over Durant.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Again I wasn't talking about playing styles but how he was expected to be a once in a generation player.

 

[bajaden]

Durant? I don't know. If Rip Hamilton and Chauncey Billups can do it, I think Durant and Westbrook would be able to, but that team would have to form a defensive identity and be able to guard the rim. And I know how flukish the 2004 Pistons were in a historical sense, but Durant > Rip, and Westbrook could easily be equal to Billups in a year or two. I wouldn't write them off, but they are still a piece or two away.

Durant has turned himself into a pretty good defensive player. Almost to the point of being an impact defensive player. I will admit that he's become better than I thought he would be. To be honest, I don't know if there's anyone in the NBA that could be called a better player than him other than maybe LeBron or Kobe in his prime.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Durant has turned himself into a pretty good defensive player. Almost to the point of being an impact defensive player. I will admit that he's become better than I thought he would be. To be honest, I don't know if there's anyone in the NBA that could be called a better player than him other than maybe LeBron or Kobe in his prime.

I like Durant a lot and I think he's the next big thing, but he hasn't become better than Kobe yet.

 

[bajaden]

I'm certainly not suggesting a max deal, just wondering if they'll make the qualifying offer to keep matching rights, or attempt a low cost extension if that is still an option.

From the articles I read on Pritchard's firing, I don't think it was so much that they gave Roy the max deal as much as it was that Pritchard basically came to the table saying "Ok, you're a max player let's get this done quickly" and didn't even attempt negotiations that signalled to the Vulcan group that he viewed their money as an unlimited resource. But it sounded like the behind the scenes and eventually going public with unhappiness about his pay, including negotiating with other teams under false pretenses to get raises for him and his buddies is what really caused the rift.

From what I've read in the local rags up there, Pritchard was given direct orders to low ball Roy because it was common knowledge on the team that his knees were getting worse with no chance of improving. The rumor is that Pritchard didn't have the guts to look Roy in the eye and do what was asked, so he went ahead and give Roy the current deal. Almost immediately after the deal was done, Pritchard's power was removed and it was just a matter of time before he was let go. Rumors are that the owner wouldn't even talk to Pritchard he was so angry with him.

 

[bajaden]

I don't really remember Shaq as a comparison in any sense, it was more along the lines of Ewing and Robinson, but it's not really that important. I think people overprojected his offense a bit, but he was only 19 when he was drafted, there was still a lot of time for him to improve upon his offensive game. He did seem to have all the drive and work ethic necessary to improve. I expected him to be around 18-22 ppg in his prime, with Mutombo defense. Mutombo was a very impactful player defensively, you add 20 ppg to that and you have a hell of a player. If you give me an Oden without the injuries, I still just might take him over Durant.

Would you take a healthy Oden over Kobe? Or a Jordan? Because thats the type of player Durant is, or will eventually be. He's that good. That would be a hard one for me. I know how good Durant is, and I still don't know how good Oden can, or ever will be, healthy or not.

 

[bajaden]

I like Durant a lot and I think he's the next big thing, but he hasn't become better than Kobe yet.

I'll tell you Vlade. I was never the biggest supporter of Durant coming out of college. He scored a lot, but he was just a volume shooter who took a lot of bad shots. But after watching him last year and then in the olympics, I'm very impressed with him. He has obviously worked very hard on his game. He's turned himself into a good rebounder. He blocks shots and plays very good defense. He's improved his shot selection and can score from the outside and inside. He's very close to being a complete player. If he improves his handles and his passing a little bit more, he'll be the best player in the NBA.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Would you take a healthy Oden over Kobe? Or a Jordan? Because thats the type of player Durant is, or will eventually be. He's that good. That would be a hard one for me. I know how good Durant is, and I still don't know how good Oden can, or ever will be, healthy or not.

He's good, but I don't think he'll ever be as good as Kobe/Jordan. Regardless, I probably wouldn't take a healthy Oden over Durant, but there's an outside chance I would depending in the circumstances because I believe in the impact and the rarity of the post player. Like brick pointed out, as good as Durant is and is going to be, he is not someone who can really create for others. That may keep him in the Dominique Wilkins category.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

From what I've read in the local rags up there, Pritchard was given direct orders to low ball Roy because it was common knowledge on the team that his knees were getting worse with no chance of improving. The rumor is that Pritchard didn't have the guts to look Roy in the eye and do what was asked, so he went ahead and give Roy the current deal. Almost immediately after the deal was done, Pritchard's power was removed and it was just a matter of time before he was let go. Rumors are that the owner wouldn't even talk to Pritchard he was so angry with him.

That is most certainly true as I read the same but general insubordination was also reportedly an issue. I can't remember if I read it online during the fallout or in one of the weeklies up here. It was a few weeks after the firing when the dust had settled a bit. Among the chief complaints were that he negotiated a deal with the Timberwolves and then went back to the Blazers and demanded a raise for either himself or his right hand man (or both of them). I do believe there was more to this though, like he lied about the numbers at stake or even that a job had been offered and then ownership found out, which is why they canned his buddy mid-season. He also complained regularly to local media members off the record at team events about being underpaid vs. Coach Nate because he was the one responsible for the team's success.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I'll tell you Vlade. I was never the biggest supporter of Durant coming out of college. He scored a lot, but he was just a volume shooter who took a lot of bad shots. But after watching him last year and then in the olympics, I'm very impressed with him. He has obviously worked very hard on his game. He's turned himself into a good rebounder. He blocks shots and plays very good defense. He's improved his shot selection and can score from the outside and inside. He's very close to being a complete player. If he improves his handles and his passing a little bit more, he'll be the best player in the NBA.

I loved Durant coming out of college and he's pretty much met all my expectations. He's an extremely versatile scorer and can rebound and play D, and I think he may very well be destined to be the best player in the NBA at some point. I think the debate between LeBron and Durant will be a very interesting one in the coming years, but Kobe is and has been just as versatile of a scorer, and he has been a very good playmaker as well. I think Durant will improve as much as he can, but I don't know if the natural playmaking ability is there.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Would you take a healthy Oden over Kobe? Or a Jordan? Because thats the type of player Durant is, or will eventually be. He's that good. That would be a hard one for me. I know how good Durant is, and I still don't know how good Oden can, or ever will be, healthy or not.

But if Oden stayed healthy and had a productive career would the debate even come up? Nobody cares about that other guy drafted ahead of Jordan because he turned out to be pretty damn good and win a few titles himself.

 

[Superman]

Rip and Chauncey couldnt have done it without DPOY big man anchor Ben Wallace. Ben Wallace had worse offense than rookie Oden btw. But he'd also give you 12rpg, 2stls, 3blks. Everyone thought Snaq would dominate the Pistons that series, Big Ben made life VERY difficult for him. Pistons won it with defense, really flustered the "super" Lakers. Best finals ever.

Hate to be a picker of nits, but Shaq was pretty doggone good in that series. Foul trouble is what limited him, more than Ben Wallace. Averaged 27 points and 11 rebounds, and shot 63% from the field. The Pistons actually made it clear that they wouldn't allow Kobe and the others to make big plays, and forced Shaq to be the focal point (the one Laker win featured a 33 point outburst and some late game heroics from Kobe; he averaged 20 points and shot 34% from the field in the rest of the series). When you look at the matchups, you might argue that Shaq should have done a lot more than he did, and that's probably true, but I wouldn't say that Big Ben made life hard on him.

As for the overall point, yes the Zombie Sonics would need a defensive anchor to be able to pull it off, at least the way their roster is set up now. But they do have Ibaka averaging 2.6 blocks a game, and 8 rebounds to go along with it. Very similar to Ben Wallace.

 

[bajaden]

But if Oden stayed healthy and had a productive career would the debate even come up? Nobody cares about that other guy drafted ahead of Jordan because he turned out to be pretty damn good and win a few titles himself.

Your absolutely right. So were arguing in the abstract. We know the outcome of the one player that remained healthy, but there's no way to know how good Oden would have been the last few years had he been healthy. So you can only deal with what is.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

So you can only deal with what is.

So let the debate on where he falls on the Bowie-Pervis spectrum begin!

 

[hrdboild]

Well the ironic thing about this latest injury is that if this report turns out to be true...

Portland Plans to Make Qualifying Offer to Oden

...and they give Oden the 8.8 million qualifying offer it's pretty unlikely someone else matches that knowing he probably won't even be ready to play until midway through next season -- so this latest season-ending surgery coming before he even plays a game might actually help to keep him in Portland. (Whether that's a good thing or not is still up for debate I suppose).

 

[pdxKingsFan]

With the CBA up in the air wouldn't they be better off waiting til the offseason anyway?

 

[bloom]

Makes me sad to hear that the big guy – once again – is having surgery. I can’t even imagine what’s going on in his head right now…He seemed like one of those nice guys. I hope he can bounce back from this.

 

[ParniValjak]

Durant? I don't know. If Rip Hamilton and Chauncey Billups can do it, I think Durant and Westbrook would be able to, but that team would have to form a defensive identity and be able to guard the rim. And I know how flukish the 2004 Pistons were in a historical sense, but Durant > Rip, and Westbrook could easily be equal to Billups in a year or two. I wouldn't write them off, but they are still a piece or two away.

And yet thunders still don't have anyone thats comparable to the Wallace combo in the front court. On his day Rasheed was a franchise level player and Ben was one of the most dominant defensive Cs in recent era. Unless Green and Krstic magically transform themselves into all-stars with brilliant defensive intensity, the thunder have no chance.