NBA Lottery Thread

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funkykingston said:
Why?

Based on this mock, who would they be missing out on that Sengun would be such a terrible choice?
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Either Wagner or Moody. Both look to offer more complete games than Sengun. Even Giddey better....only pick worse would be Kispert.
Have been on Wagner wagon for awhile. Kuminga would be a swing at the fences if drops - and why not.
 
kingdivac said:
Either Wagner or Moody. Both look to offer more complete games than Sengun. Even Giddey better....only pick worse would be Kispert.
Have been on Wagner wagon for awhile. Kuminga would be a swing at the fences if drops - and why not.
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I'm with you on wanting no part of Sengun. He screams backup center to me. Moody and Wagner are on the top of my want list. If Wagner is really close to 6'11 now (which is possible) it is likely that his wingspan is around 7'2 now. That would make him a 3/4 that could also play small ball 5 as well.
 
Telemachus said:
I'm with you on wanting no part of Sengun. He screams backup center to me. Moody and Wagner are on the top of my want list. If Wagner is really close to 6'11 now (which is possible) it is likely that his wingspan is around 7'2 now. That would make him a 3/4 that could also play small ball 5 as well.
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I loved Wagner's defensive shadowing and blocking....to be fair Sengun did show some blocking tenacity.....Sengun looks oafey and half a step slow....alot of highlights of Sengun show dunks on Turkish scrubs - not gonna happen nearly as often in the NBA. Sengun had good motoring but I think his lack of quickness is gonna show. Both Wagner and especially Moody have better and superior looking shooting to Sengun. Sengun might be ok at a later pick range not 9.
 
kingdivac said:
I loved Wagner's defensive shadowing and blocking....to be fair Sengun did show some blocking tenacity.....Sengun looks oafey and half a step slow....alot of highlights of Sengun show dunks on Turkish scrubs - not gonna happen nearly as often in the NBA. Sengun had good motoring but I think his lack of quickness is gonna show. Both Wagner and especially Moody have better and superior looking shooting to Sengun. Sengun might be ok at a later pick range not 9.
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It's Sengun's size (6'9) and defense that scare me. His lack of size will put him ata disadvantage in the post most nights in the NBA on both ends of the court. He was terrible in space (not quick enough) and was constantly caught in no man's land guarding the pick & roll (much like Bagley). If he can't defend, he will be regulated to the bench.
 
I haven’t really bothered researching prospects as this franchise has only gone with the guy I’ve wanted once in the last 10+ years (Fox), so getting hyped for a particular player tends to lead to frustration (extra frustration when that player becomes a stud, which has happened a few times).

That being said, fingers crossed that those who are educated on this incoming crop of rookies are excited about whoever we end up with!

Fingers crossed for some juicy trades too.
 
Telemachus said:
It's Sengun's size (6'9) and defense that scare me. His lack of size will put him ata disadvantage in the post most nights in the NBA on both ends of the court. He was terrible in space (not quick enough) and was constantly caught in no man's land guarding the pick & roll (much like Bagley). If he can't defend, he will be regulated to the bench.
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I liked Sengun's interior blocking and weak side help, but yes, guards will torch him, and although he looks decently athletic in the Turkish league - just average in the NBA. I like that he gets out and runs, but his quickness sucks. I'm not sure he'll be any better on the whole than Bjelica really - although a different player type - will never have Bjelica's passing or shooting. Like I said dunk or up and under moves - one or the other.
 
gunks said:
I haven’t really bothered researching prospects as this franchise has only gone with the guy I’ve wanted once in the last 10+ years (Fox), so getting hyped for a particular player tends to lead to frustration (extra frustration when that player becomes a stud, which has happened a few times).

That being said, fingers crossed that those who are educated on this incoming crop of rookies are excited about whoever we end up with!

Fingers crossed for some juicy trades too.
Click to expand...

Or the opposite - getting unhyped for a particular player they select.
 
kingdivac said:
I loved Wagner's defensive shadowing and blocking....to be fair Sengun did show some blocking tenacity.....Sengun looks oafey and half a step slow....alot of highlights of Sengun show dunks on Turkish scrubs - not gonna happen nearly as often in the NBA. Sengun had good motoring but I think his lack of quickness is gonna show. Both Wagner and especially Moody have better and superior looking shooting to Sengun. Sengun might be ok at a later pick range not 9.
Click to expand...

If Sengun is dunking on "Turkish scrubs", what are Mobley and Cade doing? Sengun is playing against a higher level of competition despite your ignorance.
 
funkykingston said:
Why?

Based on this mock, who would they be missing out on that Sengun would be such a terrible choice?
Click to expand...

I've really been watching Sengun the last couple of weeks and I have little clue as to how he and Fox have anything to build on. Every weakness of Sengun is just a total red flag when it comes to this team. Slow footspeed and defensive issues. Not a legit shot down yet. Mostly a post scorer. Undersized for a center. Not a great athlete. He's a slower Sabonis/Kanter. I don't think either are a great fit for Fox either. Moody, Wagner, Jalen Johnson even Jones would be a better fit for Fox since he gets up and down the floor and is already there as a spot big. Re-signing Holmes or keeping Bagley means Sengun is probably going to have a hard time getting minutes at the start. Even without them he might. He needs a team willing to give him a chance to play now and produce numbers because that's what he can give you. If anything his one benefit is that he is developed in the skills he does have as a post scorer.
 
Telemachus said:
I'm with you on wanting no part of Sengun. He screams backup center to me. Moody and Wagner are on the top of my want list. If Wagner is really close to 6'11 now (which is possible) it is likely that his wingspan is around 7'2 now. That would make him a 3/4 that could also play small ball 5 as well.
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I think Sengun could be a solid 15-18 ppg big man on the right team. But Bagley is already producing at a 20 and 10 clip and look what this team has done to him and he's a much better fit next to Fox on paper.
 
kingdivac said:
I loved Wagner's defensive shadowing and blocking....to be fair Sengun did show some blocking tenacity.....Sengun looks oafey and half a step slow....alot of highlights of Sengun show dunks on Turkish scrubs - not gonna happen nearly as often in the NBA. Sengun had good motoring but I think his lack of quickness is gonna show. Both Wagner and especially Moody have better and superior looking shooting to Sengun. Sengun might be ok at a later pick range not 9.
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Yep, and his pnr defense is the main concern and we know Walton would bench him consistently for it. Sengun plays in a league that isn't playing the same type of ball the NBA does right now. Early on he'll foul his way to the bench when Luke isn't screaming at him for missing assignments or going rogue in the post offensively.
 
Dime Dropper said:
If Sengun is dunking on "Turkish scrubs", what are Mobley and Cade doing? Sengun is playing against a higher level of competition despite your ignorance.
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It's totally different. Here are the facts that matter. Athletic bigs that can shoot and switch a bit can survive. Cade, just like Luka is a different convo altogether because he has the most important skill in the NBA right now, the ability to run pick and roll and shoot from range. Post scoring bigs right now aren't that valuable. It's just a reality and a fact. Sabonis and Jokic are potentials on his upside but Sabonis is far more athletic and Jokic is a generational passing big man. Good luck on that gamble.
 
The_Jamal said:
??? since when??
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Per 36. Sorry I should have said rate. And every year he's been in that exact window which shows it's likely not a fluke, it's being taken out for what he doesn't do that stops it. Which are some of the same exact things Sengun doesn't do.
 
SacTownKid said:
It's totally different. Here are the facts that matter. Athletic bigs that can shoot and switch a bit can survive. Cade, just like Luka is a different convo altogether because he has the most important skill in the NBA right now, the ability to run pick and roll and shoot from range. Post scoring bigs right now aren't that valuable. It's just a reality and a fact. Sabonis and Jokic are potentials on his upside but Sabonis is far more athletic and Jokic is a generational passing big man. Good luck on that gamble.
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Absolutely nothing got to do with what I said. You've moved the goalposts, as I suspected you would.
 
SacTownKid said:
Per 36. Sorry I should have said rate. And every year he's been in that exact window which shows it's likely not a fluke, it's being taken out for what he doesn't do that stops it. Which are some of the same exact things Sengun doesn't do.
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Except per 36 doesn't mean anything. He puts up his numbers with #2 option usage, almost 0 playmaking and average to bad efficiency because his free throw shooting is so poor. I'll give him credit for his 3-ball this year, which was a legit solid weapon. But 55% TS is not even close to cutting it for a dude who takes as many possessions as he does and offers little else on defense/creation.

I'm not worried at all about Bagley "finding it" elsewhere. Go let him put up the magical 20-10 while his team is losing by 12. He's still so far from being an NBA starter, much less a core foundational player.
 
Dime Dropper said:
Absolutely nothing got to do with what I said. You've moved the goalposts, as I suspected you would.
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You mentioned the correlation and it's something worth asking but it's not the question to be asked because the leagues and the role of a player of their respective types are entirely different. And if you'd like to take it there, go scour the teams Besiktas played and lineup his competition in the Turkish Super League. I personally don't think the NCAA was much behind if at all. More experienced obviously but they've taken a hit talent wise over the years from the G-league and NBA. Sengun did very well but you can't ingnore just how screwed up the NBA game is right now. We just watched a great defensive player of year center taken completely out by junk ball.
 
SacTownKid said:
It's totally different. Here are the facts that matter. Athletic bigs that can shoot and switch a bit can survive. Cade, just like Luka is a different convo altogether because he has the most important skill in the NBA right now, the ability to run pick and roll and shoot from range. Post scoring bigs right now aren't that valuable. It's just a reality and a fact. Sabonis and Jokic are potentials on his upside but Sabonis is far more athletic and Jokic is a generational passing big man. Good luck on that gamble.
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Sengun is going to have to show he can defend at C in the NBA, but I already trust his offensive game translating more than Bagley. His passing element alone gives him far more promise than Bagley has shown us in 3 seasons on offense.
 
The_Jamal said:
Except per 36 doesn't mean anything. He puts up his numbers with #2 option usage, almost 0 playmaking and average to bad efficiency because his free throw shooting is so poor. I'll give him credit for his 3-ball this year, which was a legit solid weapon. But 55% TS is not even close to cutting it for a dude who takes as many possessions as he does and offers little else on defense/creation.

I'm not worried at all about Bagley "finding it" elsewhere. Go let him put up the magical 20-10 while his team is losing by 12. He's still so far from being an NBA starter, much less a core foundational player.
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What? Marvins usage was 90th in the league. Sorry, no Iverson there by far. Regardless, it is thus the issues when trying to force in a mostly offensive big to what this team has right now. We know what it looks like when a player actually produces at a rate expected but never actually puts up those numbers because they are just that, mostly offensive production based and as a result get yanked in favor of role players.
 
The_Jamal said:
Sengun is going to have to show he can defend at C in the NBA, but I already trust his offensive game translating more than Bagley. His passing element alone gives him far more promise than Bagley has shown us in 3 seasons on offense.
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He's certainly far more skilled than Bagley in the post. Again you'd be starting off trying to turn a young production big into everything they aren't. Not a Kings specialty. You can go back to Spencer Hawes, Jason Thompson, Thomas Robinson, maybe Bagley, Papa G. This franchises track record drafting bigs if they weren't named Cousins was pretty bad. And heck, even that ended pretty bad haha.
 
SacTownKid said:
What? Marvins usage was 90th in the league. Sorry, no Iverson there by far. Regardless, it is thus the issues when trying to force in a mostly offensive big to what this team has right now. We know what it looks like when a player actually produces at a rate expected but never actually puts up those numbers because they are just that, mostly offensive production based and as a result get yanked in favor of role players.
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Is that sorted for Minutes played at all? That just seems super unlikely a 23 % USG rate is 90th in the league. Regardless, Bagley has done nothing to earn that kind of leash. Like I said; liability at the free throw line, big usage, average to bad efficiency for his usage rate, 0 playmaking/creation. Developed a shot, but still inconsistent. What am I supposed to be missing to continue to develop Bagley? He's not close to Richaun Holmes production on both ends and I doubt he will be at this point.
 
SacTownKid said:
You mentioned the correlation and it's something worth asking but it's not the question to be asked because the leagues and the role of a player of their respective types are entirely different. And if you'd like to take it there, go scour the teams Besiktas played and lineup his competition in the Turkish Super League. I personally don't think the NCAA was much behind if at all. More experienced obviously but they've taken a hit talent wise over the years from the G-league and NBA. Sengun did very well but you can't ingnore just how screwed up the NBA game is right now. We just watched a great defensive player of year center taken completely out by junk ball.
Click to expand...

I was referring solely to your comment of "Sengun is dunking on Turkish scrubs".
I thought the discourse amongst American basketball fans had progressed passed lazy, outdated, inaccurate stereotypes that serve no purpose other than to make the person commenting look foolish. The Turkish league is still a top league in Europe and superior to NCAA. You can question Sengun's game and how valuable it is in today's NBA without making yourself look ignorant.

This was the same type of throwaway idiotic comment that I saw many people make, on various forums, about Luka (and every other Euro prospect) prior to the draft. It's lazy and inaccurate.
 
Dime Dropper said:
I was referring solely to your comment of "Sengun is dunking on Turkish scrubs". I thought the discourse amongst American basketball fans had progressed passed lazy, outdated, inaccurate stereotypes that serve no purpose other than to make the person commenting look foolish. The Turkish league is still a top league in Europe and superior to NCAA. You can question Sengun's game and how valuable it is in today's NBA without making yourself look ignorant.

This was the same type of throwaway idiotic comment that I saw many people make, on various forums, about Luka (and every other Euro prospect) prior to the draft. It's lazy and inaccurate.
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Not me bud, check that original poster tag again.
 
The_Jamal said:
Is that sorted for Minutes played at all? That just seems super unlikely a 23 % USG rate is 90th in the league. Regardless, Bagley has done nothing to earn that kind of leash. Like I said; liability at the free throw line, big usage, average to bad efficiency for his usage rate, 0 playmaking/creation. Developed a shot, but still inconsistent. What am I supposed to be missing to continue to develop Bagley? He's not close to Richaun Holmes production on both ends and I doubt he will be at this point.
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I'm not saying there is no validity in your points. It was without qualifiers but usage is usage based on whatever minutes you did play and 23% for a number 2 pick isn't that high at all if their sole reason for existing is based on production. Names above him include Shake Milton, Jordan Poole, and Boban Marjanovic. While I think Bagley going all weaksauce lately in the media is a bad idea, he has to be given credit for accepting his role as a spot big so Holmes could eat into the same space you would ideally want Bagley to be in. Holmes might always be better in that same space, but Bagley has been horrifically misused like many Kings bigs before him and it's one of the main reasons we should be completely bearish on a big like Sengun for the Kings. If they went with him so he can play behind Holmes and maybe even Harrell or at PF then they just likely increased the odds of another draft bust big even if he actually can play (See Papa G now). My goodness look at Hassan. Him getting away from this franchise when he did likely saved his career.
 
SacTownKid said:
I'm not saying there is no validity in your points. It was without qualifiers but usage is usage based on whatever minutes you did play and 23% for a number 2 pick isn't that high at all if their sole reason for existing is based on production. Names above him include Shake Milton, Jordan Poole, and Boban Marjanovic. While I think Bagley going all weaksauce lately in the media is a bad idea, he has to be given credit for accepting his role as a spot big so Holmes could eat into the same space you would ideally want Bagley to be in. Holmes might always be better in that same space, but Bagley has been horrifically misused like many Kings bigs before him and it's one of the main reasons we should be completely bearish on a big like Sengun for the Kings. If they went with him so he can play behind Holmes and maybe even Harrell or at PF then they just likely increased the odds of another draft bust big even if he actually can play (See Papa G now). My goodness look at Hassan. Him getting away from this franchise when he did likely saved his career.
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Again, the issue is how do you play Bagley at the 5 and expect the defense to Hold up? He did have some impressive games at the 5 offensively, but man is he lost when expected to be the lead rim protector. Gets cooked in the pnr, not good footwork to recover, not instinctual rim protector..

There's just too many issues. You can complain he gets misused, but the reality is he's been one of the worst regular rotation players in the NBA over his first 3 seasons. You can't blame all of that on "misuse". Doesn't really matter what metric you look at either, basically all of them grade him extremely poorly.

I wish him the best, but I think you hope some team still gives you value for him now and move on. This team has 2 franchise cornerstones locked in, the goal should be to find pieces that compliment and lift their game. Not fall victim to the sunk cost fallacy of a former #2 pick.
 
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