Musselman and his bench

[Entity]

i have looked at about 10 box scores from both 2002 and 2003 seasons when muss was a coach at golden state. Every game without fail he used a 9 man rotation. The ninth man got anywhere from 10 to 15 min the rest were 18 to 24. But i did notice that he used only 1 man to come in for both PF and C. Now that could be because lack of options but he seems to use his bench most at the 1, 2, and 3 spots.

 

[VF21]

I think how deep he goes on the bench will depend on who's ON the bench. He said in his press conference he wants every player on the team to feel as though they might actually be called on to play.

I personally hope we can see times when we do go deep into the roster. Having guys sitting down there just to keep the chairs from floating up into the rafters always seems like such a waste.

 

[Sac.Kings]

I like Muss's philosophy of everyone getting minutes, you seem to have better team chemistry when guys aren't complaining about not playing.

 

[kingkung]

I think how deep he goes on the bench will depend on who's ON the bench. He said in his press conference he wants every player on the team to feel as though they might actually be called on to play.

I personally hope we can see times when we do go deep into the roster. Having guys sitting down there just to keep the chairs from floating up into the rafters always seems like such a waste.

How cool would THAT be?! Helium chairs for the bench... ensures very fast substitutions (or ensuing hilarity)!!!

 

[Bricklayer]

Not sure where that story first originated from, but Muss, LIKE MOST GOOD COACHES, pretty much had an 8 1/2 man rotation at Golden State. That's pretty standard. To fit in many more than that , you basically have to have a crap starter or two not worthy of more than 24 min. If you've got good starters, there's onyl time for 8-9.

 

[walker60]

Not sure where that story first originated from, but Muss, LIKE MOST GOOD COACHES, pretty much had an 8 1/2 man rotation at Golden State. That's pretty standard. To fit in many more than that , you basically have to have a crap starter or two not worthy of more than 24 min. If you've got good starters, there's onyl time for 8-9.

Rarely, you might see a 10-man rotation like Memphis had when Bonzi was there (look how that turned out). Or sometimes coaches like Adelman will run a seven man rotation once in a while. Usually it's 8-9 like Bricklayer said, which is good because everyone who is playing is getting enough minutes to get into the flow of the game. There's only so many minutes to go around.

 

[LPKingsFan]

A lot depends on who's around. You have to assume that if Bonzi is back, he, Kevin and Ron split all the minutes at SF/OG. Then there's the 10-15 minutes for backup PG. The big ??? is what happens to the frontcourt.

 

[chelle]

A lot depends on who's around. You have to assume that if Bonzi is back, he, Kevin and Ron split all the minutes at SF/OG. Then there's the 10-15 minutes for backup PG. The big ??? is what happens to the frontcourt.

That is if we get a backup PG that can be on the court that long. For all of Bibby's defensive woes, our offense fell apart with him on the bench.

 

[Kings113]

We will. Petrie has to realize how Mike gets worn out towards the end, and plays too many mins in general. There are PLENTY guys out there who are solid and can be attained. I'll be shocked if we don't upgrade the back-up PG spot over Hart.

I'll also be completely suprised if we still have 4/4 of the front-court we have now. 3/4 or 2/4 - gone and replaced has gotta happen. SAR I think is the safest one, Brad next, then it's uncertain after that. Brad I feel has a bit of uncertainity there, but not as much as KT/Corliss/Pota.

 

[SacTownKid]

Muss would go deeper than 9 sometimes if I remember correctly.

 

[Superman]

I don't know that it matters who's playing past the 7th/8th man if the first five aren't capable and healthy. And if you're going more than three deep on the bench, then you're first five probably aren't capable and healthy, and you're not going to win anyways.

If we have a solid 8-man rotation that we can rely on in tough road games and in the playoffs, we'll be fine. Depth is overrated down the stretch.

 

[SacKings384]

The Kings don't have 9-10 players that can play solid. After Cisco, there is a significant drop off. The bench needs to be upgraded.

 

[Amanjoy]

I like the occasional 9-10 man rotation. It keeps the opposing team on its toes.

I'm a huge fan of putting a guy on the floor for 5-10 minutes just to give the opposition a different look. It can create problems for the other team in adjustments.

I agree that the Kings are a little limited in that dept with the bench not being very deep.

But, as I've said in other threads...the acquisition of a veteran backup PG like a BJax, and drafting an athletic big man that can contribute right out of the gate like a Hilton Armstrong-type would deepen that bad boy up and allow Musselman to do a lot more experimenting!

 

[KINGS16]

You guys check out Dallas Mavs bench. Pretty solid 10 man rotation. That's what we need too...a solid bench! A back up PG who can score off the box and has good defense and a big man who has solid rebounding and shot blocking ability. The big man does'nt need to score that much except put backs and gimmes underneath the basket from an assist because we have enough scorers in the 1-4 spots.

 

[Viking]

You guys check out Dallas Mavs bench. Pretty solid 10 man rotation. That's what we need too...a solid bench! A back up PG who can score off the box and has good defense and a big man who has solid rebounding and shot blocking ability. The big man does'nt need to score that much except put backs and gimmes underneath the basket from an assist because we have enough scorers in the 1-4 spots.

You're right, but it's a lot easier said than done when it comes to returning to our 2001-2003 level.

 

[Bricklayer]

You're right, but it's a lot easier said than done when it comes to returning to our 2001-2003 level.

We were only 8 during the banner 01-02 season too. Its the absolutely standard rotation. The ONLY time you have more than 8 1/2 to 9 max is when you have multiple starters who aren't really good enough to be starters. Its the only way it happens. If you've got 5 good starters, then they are gfoing to be 30+ apiece. Any very good starter is going to be 35+ unless you are just blowing everybody out ala the Spurs. And so in the end you have about 60-70 bench minutes to distribute however you'd like. Makes far mroe sense to make that 20-20-20-5to10, then 12, 12, 12, 12, 12.

Dallas doesn't have a starting center or a starting OG. They've had massive injuries all year (like our 02-03 team). THAT's why the rotation looks so deep. Lack of quality starters, and opportunities opened up by injuries. Which is all fine -- has worked for them. But its a "choice" entirely dictatred by personnel. Make the center Yao and the OG Hamilton (or whatever) and all of a sudden that rotation becomes about 8.

 

[VF21]

I'm not advocating a 10-player rotation. I'm not advocating every player get minutes every game.

What I would like to see, however, is more use of 9-12 player when the ones ahead of him aren't getting the job done. Put Potatohead in for a couple of minutes if Brad is MIA - glazed look in the eyes, slow plodding gait that makes Vlade look quick, etc. Adelman didn't do it. He didn't do it with Tag, either, and it was a constant source of irritation and puzzlement to many here why he didn't. No, Tag wasn't going to win games and Potato most likely won't either, but they ARE part of the team. Utiliize them on occasion and who knows? It just might work out once in a while. It's sure better than just having them sit there. If they're good enough to make the team, they should be able to contribute SOMETHING.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Well said VF, that was actually what I was trying to get at in the thread the other day that eventually came off as me ripping on Adelman. If something is not working or players aren't getting the job done try something else. Its worth a shot. Muss did adapt his strategy to the strengths of his lineup in GS so hopefully he'll be open to playing a little deeper bench when nothing else is working, if nothing else it rests the starters for the next game.

 

[KingsFan54]

I'm not advocating a 10-player rotation. I'm not advocating every player get minutes every game.

What I would like to see, however, is more use of 9-12 player when the ones ahead of him aren't getting the job done. Put Potatohead in for a couple of minutes if Brad is MIA - glazed look in the eyes, slow plodding gait that makes Vlade look quick, etc. Adelman didn't do it. He didn't do it with Tag, either, and it was a constant source of irritation and puzzlement to many here why he didn't. No, Tag wasn't going to win games and Potato most likely won't either, but they ARE part of the team. Utiliize them on occasion and who knows? It just might work out once in a while. It's sure better than just having them sit there. If they're good enough to make the team, they should be able to contribute SOMETHING.

Very well said. That is what I got so frusrated about Rick about. Not using his bench when the starters were stinking up the place. Like you say, "if they are good enogh to make the team, then they should be able to contribute to the team"

 

[SacTownKid]

I agree VF, and if Muss is still Muss than you may very well see just that.

 

[walker60]

If using 12 players was a viable option, some coach in the NBA would do it, but alas no one does or ever will. Just cause you are on the team doesn't mean your are good enough to play on the court. Some guys are on the team because they might be good enough to play someday (Price), and some are on the team, quite frankly, because they fill out the roster (Potapenko). When Potapenko's contract is up, he might be lucky to even make a team. If that's the case, why should he play for a playoff contender? It's not little league baseball where we need to keep everyone's morale up, it's the NBA. Your best players play.

 

[Emusslemanfan]

I am so happy now that we have Eric as our coach.

GO KINGS

 

[BigSong]

any teammate past the first 7-8, are reserved for injuries, garbage time, and the occasional matchup problems. if your mainline players are in a funk it is generally better to let them play through it, rather then let it linger possibly into further games. That I think was Adelman' philosophy and it's one to which I prescribe.

 

[Kings113]

But, when he doesn't use guys like Skinner/Sampson (I liked what I saw from him), who would of provided added size, defense, athleticism, rebounding up front. That's when I didn't like him.

 

[MadMKEkf]

any teammate past the first 7-8, are reserved for injuries, garbage time, and the occasional matchup problems. if your mainline players are in a funk it is generally better to let them play through it, rather then let it linger possibly into further games. That I think was Adelman' philosophy and it's one to which I prescribe.

I hate to say it - but I think this is correct. I used to think that Rick should switch more, and I wanted to see the bench. I always thought that there may be a hidden diamond there. But then I tried a test and I think that Rick was right:

During about the last 30 games I would test this (mentally) in the 4th quarter. I would decide that it was time to switch Brad, or switch Mike, or switch whomever seemed to really be stinking it up. Then after I decided this mentally, I would see how the player did. I was SURPRISED at how often by the end of the game they would rise to the occation and do WELL. Not everytime of course, but enough that it made me really doubt how smart it is to switch your top players.

I'd suggest anyone thinking differently should try this next season - the key is to be honest when you say "switch" you have to grade it from that point. It gets very tempting to feel "switch" then Brad gets a 3 and you think O.K. switch AFTER the 3 - well that's not fair, of course.

The key is being able to call the switch at the right time - rather than with hindsight. After trying it, and it not working well, Rick's high win percentage made more sense to me.

 

[Kings113]

Bottom line, the last couple seasons, Brad/Mike haven't gotten to rest much. House could of spelled Bibby more as House got going (took 2-3 weeks), and Brad of course was injured for the last two months of 04-05. 05-06 was understandable with Bibby, Hart wasn't doing it, but with Brad... Rick could of and should of used Skinner/Sampson (obviously less time for Sampson, but some regularity/energy mnutes) much more than he did.

 

[SacTownKid]

Players past the 8th man are also used for practice purposes. Just because we don't see them play doesn't mean they don't. They push the starters in practice to help make them better at what they do.

Of course there is nothing wrong with sticking with less than a 12 man rotation. But playing a guy like Ron Artest 44 minutes, or a Brad Miller 40 minutes is something you can't do. You can see a real decline in their play the more minutes they log. Of course Ron could have just been because he wasn't in shape, but I have heard from many Pacer fans that he usually gets pretty careless around the 40 minute mark when fatigue sets in.

 

[ParniValjak]

Bottom line, the last couple seasons, Brad/Mike haven't gotten to rest much. House could of spelled Bibby more as House got going (took 2-3 weeks), and Brad of course was injured for the last two months of 04-05. 05-06 was understandable with Bibby, Hart wasn't doing it, but with Brad... Rick could of and should of used Skinner/Sampson (obviously less time for Sampson, but some regularity/energy mnutes) much more than he did.

You keep on mentioning Sampson like he is some sort of god's gift to basketball. Quite simply he is a rubbish player. He has been in the league for 3 or 4 years with as many different teams and couldn't hold a spot in some of the worst teams in the league.

He is a good 13th man but to rely on him in any sort of semi regular rotation is wanting to be a lottery team.

There is a reason why he hasn't established himself in this league, its because he is not that good.

 

[Padrino]

Players past the 8th man are also used for practice purposes. Just because we don't see them play doesn't mean they don't. They push the starters in practice to help make them better at what they do.

Of course there is nothing wrong with sticking with less than a 12 man rotation. But playing a guy like Ron Artest 44 minutes, or a Brad Miller 40 minutes is something you can't do. You can see a real decline in their play the more minutes they log. Of course Ron could have just been because he wasn't in shape, but I have heard from many Pacer fans that he usually gets pretty careless around the 40 minute mark when fatigue sets in.

there are only 12 active players on a team. i sure as hell hope the rotation is less than 12 guys. people are probably never going to stop ragging on adelman for his short rotations, and i agree in part that the starters logged too many minutes at times, but the fact is, if you have to rely on guys 9-12, you are a lottery bound team. look at what larry brown did to the knicks. it was a coaching disaster, and in large part because of his strange rotations and overuse of the deep bench. obviously, alienating his players did no good, but the rotation was one of the bigger problems in NY. sometimes people forget how important continuity is to the game. a set, and relatively short (as in, 8-9 guys at most), rotation is necessary to achieve any kind of on-court chemistry. throwing potato head or sampson out there isn't going to achieve anything in the long run. they will never log enough minutes to build any kind of continuity with any of the other players on the court. anybody actually ever pay attention during garbagetime? imagine that in the second quarter when brad is getting owned by the opposition. i don't care. you don't bring in guys that suck, for lack of a better term. when we get a real backup C, then we can talk about a minutes-reduction for brad. until then, say hello to small ball.

 

[Packt]

You can start to create trust issues with your bread and butter players, that's why an 8 man rotation is standard around the league, at least with winning teams. You want to allow players to work through things, and to make things happen. You might be able to win a few games here and there going deep into your bench, but it might not be worth the headache longterm.