More reason not to like Avery Johnson...

[hammystyle]

I'm not nearly as convinced you are about how meaningful Johnson's career winning percentage is. He inherited a team that had won 50+ games 4 straight years and was in the playoffs each time. Under Avery they won 5 playoff series in four years while under Nelson they had won 7 playoff series in the preceding four years.

Johnson never coached a team that didn't have the following players: Dirk Nowitzki, Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse, Erick Dampier. His teams also had either Devin Harris or Jason Kidd. That's 3/4 of your rotation right there composed of very solid to all-star players. Sure, he averaged 60 wins a season (factoring in his 16-2 partial season) but Kenny Natt could have led those teams to maybe 55 wins per season. Is Avery a better than average coach? Probably. But touting his winning percentage without pointing out that he was given a long-tenured, playoff-quality team every year he coached is ignoring the big picture.

He took a very good team and took it to the next level. That's not easy to do. I'm touting his winning because even though the circumstances were favorable, its spectacular. Like I said, I'm pretty sure its the best of all time.

Kenny Natt was not taking that team to 55 wins a season. That's what Don Nelson was getting out of them.

 

[VF21]

And he should be able to conduct his future search as he pleases.

Look at it this way ... He's chosen as his profession a job that only has 30 total openings. If he wants to be considered for an opening, he needs to make his resume stand out and prove himself to be a viable candidate. By stating that he will not interview, etc. he's putting himself out as above everyone else. Much like an actor refusing to read for a part.

The really good ones read for the part if they're interested, regardless of their name or star power. Why? Because they're confident in themselves and their ability to prove their point.

It's not Avery Johnson holding interviews for the next team lucky enough to secure his services. It's NBA franchises holding interviews to determine what coach will join the elite 30... There are many more candidates than there are vacancies.

 

[hammystyle]

Actually alienating a fan base when your team is in the elite status is pretty difficult. Your comment that most coaches do alienate fan bases is interesting but can you back it up with examples, and I don't mean Eric Musselman type examples.

And you continue to ignore the fact that he alienated EVERYBODY. He had no defenders in Dallas and I cannot recall even one article showing the least bit of remorse about him being fired. That, too, is unusual.

Yankee fans have a major up and down relationship with Joe Torre. There were tons of King fans ready to run Adelman out of town. When your expectations are high and your team doesn't perform, fans tend to blame the coach.

Again, I've heard the stories too, about the entire team shutting him out. Yes that's a crtitical flaw..but I'm stats and results based. His results are excellent and the other guys out there are poor.

 

[VF21]

His results were excellent partially because of the team he inherited. We'll agree to disagree if that's okay with you - for the simple reason I cannot believe I've actually spent this much time arguing about a former Dallas Mavericks coach.



P.S. No, there weren't TONS of Kings fans ready to run Adelman out of town. That's just patently absurd.

Peace...out.

 

[Showtime]

Why would I need to bring those points up when everyone else has done it a million times in this thread?

You don't, but you should at least recognize them alongside his positives, instead of totally dismissing their impact on his resume as a head coach.

Its overboard and insane the criticism he's getting here.

Overboard and insane? How a coach takes a team up, and down, MATTERS. And the criticism didn't originate with kingsfans. These are issues that came from Dallas, and we are just bringing them up. There's a reason he was fired, and they aren't frivolous, overboard, or insane reasons.

I'm not even advocating we get him, just defending him as a good candidate among a sea of mediocrity.

I don't recall ever saying he's a horrible coach. I made this thread because many kings fans were wondering about the apparent lack of interest in him, and now we know. He thinks he's a top tier coach, and he wants to be treated (and paid) as such. He thinks he's above a coaching "search", and apparently is too good to be a candidate. He wants to be THE candidate.

And he should be able to conduct his future search as he pleases.

Nobody has said anything different. But he's not going to get that many opportunities with his approach. If his goal is to be a NBA head coach again, this isn't the best way of going at it.

Its my opinion, his record will look very appealing to an owner and he'll be able to get the power he wants.

Maybe so, but that's a very specific set of circumstances and I don't see that happening any time soon.

 

[VF21]

You don't, but you should at least recognize them alongside his positives, instead of totally dismissing their impact on his resume as a head coach.



Overboard and insane? How a coach takes a team up, and down, MATTERS. And the criticism didn't originate with kingsfans. These are issues that came from Dallas, and we are just bringing them up. There's a reason he was fired, and they aren't frivolous, overboard, or insane reasons.



I don't recall ever saying he's a horrible coach. I made this thread because many kings fans were wondering about the apparent lack of interest in him, and now we know. He thinks he's a top tier coach, and he wants to be treated (and paid) as such. He thinks he's above a coaching "search", and apparently is too good to be a candidate. He wants to be THE candidate.



Nobody has said anything different. But he's not going to get that many opportunities with his approach. If his goal is to be a NBA head coach again, this isn't the best way of going at it.


Maybe so, but that's a very specific set of circumstances and I don't see that happening any time soon.

Good summary...

And I'll close by commenting that if Johnson were, in fact, anywhere near as desirable as a few people would like to believe, he wouldn't be sitting at home watching. He'd be right back in the NBA ... and he's not.

 

[Ryle]

Sorry people but last time I looked players win and lose games probably 90% of the time. 10% of the time a team will either win or lose because of a bad/good coaching decision. Look it up but any coach that wins has a talented team that wins for him.

If the team has ****ty players they also had a ****ty record and vice versa......No coach can magically pull wins out of there ***.

 

[VF21]

...And?

Sorry but I don't see which side of the argument you're weighing in on.

 

[Showtime]

Sorry people but last time I looked players win and lose games probably 90% of the time. 10% of the time a team will either win or lose because of a bad/good coaching decision. Look it up but any coach that wins has a talented team that wins for him.

If the team has ****ty players they also had a ****ty record and vice versa......No coach can magically pull wins out of there ***.

I disagree to an extent. I believe on one hand, a coach like Phil Jackson, while being a good coach, has his reputation boosted by the talent he was able to coach. Jordan/Pippen, and then Shaq/Kobe is going to get any coach some rings. Look at Doc Rivers, who went from being on the hot seat and ready to be fired to COTY, and the difference was the talent he had.

On the other hand, there are coaches who have made a difference by getting the most out of their teams, like Jerry Sloan or Pop.

So I don't necessarily agree with the 90/10 %. I think it varies more than that.

 

[kingsnation]

The sitaution in Philly is pretty darn close to what Dallas was when he took over.

Actually no it wasn't. The Mavs had been contenders in the West for years at the point when he took over. They also had Dirk who was pushing for MVP every year and soon ended up winning the award.

Philly is a barely a playoff team in the East, and they wouldn't be a playoff team in the West. Their 2 biggest stars are a young Iggy and a injured Brand.

So, no - they are not the same situation. And not pretty close either.

An interview is simply a meeting. No one has ever gotten hired for for a multi-million dollar job (or even a $10/hr job) without a doing an interview. When you go in as the 5th guy in part of an extensive search you sell yourself to the team. When you go in as the #1 guy they want, they sell themselves to you. Its about creating demand, leverage, and power. Its smart business. I don't know if it'll work this offseason or next, but I think before long someone will take a hard look at his REALLY impressive record and give him exactly what he wants.

If he believes he is being a shrewd business man or something, he is only fooling himself. He reminds me of the guy who thinks he's playing everyone but really he's the one being played.

I said it in a earlier post that you didn't respond to: It is NOT a smart business move if it isn't working. Right now, Avery Johnson doesn't have demand, leverage or power because no one is buying in to his "REALLY impressive record."

Why? Either because it's not that impressive at all or because he thinks he's the second coming of Red. My guess is both.

I'm just shocked that people are so against a guy who did so well when it looks like our main candidates are Eddie Jordan and Paul Westphal.

I really really do not like Eddie Jordan. But I would take him over Avery simply due to attitude alone.

 

[Telemachus]

Yankee fans have a major up and down relationship with Joe Torre. There were tons of King fans ready to run Adelman out of town. When your expectations are high and your team doesn't perform, fans tend to blame the coach.

Having fans for and against a coach of a winning team is not uncommon. However, for every fan in NY that wanted to get rid of Torre there were probably 10 that wanted him to stay.

At worst, it was 50/50 near the end on the Kings' fans wanting to keep Adelman (I wanted him to stay BTW).

In Dallas, you could almost hear a pin drop when looking for supporters of Avery after he was fired. That is very rare for a coach with a winning team. I can't think of anyone else this has happened to in sports off the top of my head.

 

[fnordius]

a soft, going nowhere team

2000-1: 53-29, eliminated in second round by the "twin towers" Spurs.
2001-2: 57-25, eliminated in second round by the Kings.
2002-3: 60-22, lose WCF to the Spurs in 6 games after Dirk's injured in game 1.
2003-4: 52-30, eliminated in first round by the Kings.
2004-5: 42-22 and playoff-bound when Johnson takes over. Eliminated in second round by the Suns.

Their average performance from 2000 to 2004 was a 55.5 win season, followed by a second round exit. When Johnson took over, they had a 58 win season followed by a second round exit.

They'd been a consistently mid-playoff level team for some time. They'd had a little adjustment to do with the transition from Steve Nash to Devin Harris and Jason Terry, but they were hardly a "soft, going nowhere team" in 2004. Although they are declining now, they still ended this season with 33 wins more than we did, and whipped the Spurs 4-1 in the first round... they averaged a second round exit before Johnson, during Johnson, and they're still doing that.

This is a fine place for hating on the Mavs and all, but Johnson inherited a solid roster, which was going to win 50+ games and make the playoffs, just as they have every year since 2000.

 

[Bricklayer]

No, they were soft. And Avery made them unsoft. I don't care how much you dislike the man, trying to deny the sea change when he took over is just foolish. Suddenly they defended, they played their big men, and they became a serious threat for the first time -- they were always the team you laughed at before. Just another run 'n gun junk team built for the regular season. But Avery's team was somethng else altogether. Whether he eventually lost them or not, whether his high intensity style cracked their chemistry and caused them to rebel and choke who knows. But he turned them into what they had to be to win. And as I've noted, they didn't get any better when he left. They have always been soft, led by a soft not-quite-superstar, and only during Avery's term did they ever look to be more than that.

 

[rainmaker]

While I agree that Avery lost his team in dallas, I don't think his personality would be the worst thing for this team. I think the kings could use a disciplinarian because far too often their biggest problems were lack of effort and not playing defense. Those are two area's that Avery has excelled in as a head coach.

I would not be concerned about Avery's abilities as a head coach. While he isn't my first choice, I do think he's a good coach, and better than a lot of the names that have been thrown around as candidates.

But I would be concerned about how he alienated everyone in dallas, not just the team. Sometimes coaches do lose there teams, for whatever reason, but rarely does a coach lose the support of an entire organization, especially after such a dominant regular season. He screwed up a good thing in dallas, but that doesn't mean he hasn't learned anything from it and doesn't deserve another shot at coaching. We won't know if he learned from what happened in dallas until he gets another shot at coaching. I wouldn't give him $6 mil, but I would rather give him 3-4 mil a year instead of giving that amount to eddie jordan or kurt rambis.

 

[fnordius]

No, they were soft. And Avery made them unsoft. I don't care how much you dislike the man, trying to deny the sea change when he took over is just foolish.

I'm just going by results. One could argue that Johnson improved results for the first 100 games that he coached, and made results worse after that... looking at the stats for that period, that's not implausible at all. But their last (mainly) Nellie year, their opponents were shooting 43.8%. The following year, with Johnson in charge, their opponents improved to 44.3% shooting.

Maybe you just had to be there.

 

[Warhawk]

Just throwing out an idea here, but does anyone think that maybe part of the Mavs tuning out of Avery may have stemmed from him turning from a player to a coach in such a short amount of time? Maybe something to do with being "one of the guys" to their hard-a** coach that was hard for the team to handle? Just wondering if this might be part of the problem for that team at that time.....

 

[Showtime]

Just throwing out an idea here, but does anyone think that maybe part of the Mavs tuning out of Avery may have stemmed from him turning from a player to a coach in such a short amount of time? Maybe something to do with being "one of the guys" to their hard-a** coach that was hard for the team to handle? Just wondering if this might be part of the problem for that team at that time.....

I don't see how, because he was an assistant there before becoming head coach. So it's not like one day he's "one of the guys" and the next he's "in your face".


Also, about the guy who said fans wanted Rick gone: you must not have that good or a memory. When Peja was traded, the team was obviously not doing well, and when the team acquired Artest, he totally turned the team around with his defense and effort. They ended up with a great second half turn around and gave the spurs a run for their money. After that series, the consensus of the fanbase was that the team was on the way up again, and ready to make another upswing. So when Rick was let go, fans were upset because they thought the team was heading in the right direction. It was the owners that had enough with Rick and wanted him out, not the fans.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't see how, because he was an assistant there before becoming head coach. So it's not like one day he's "one of the guys" and the next he's "in your face".


Also, about the guy who said fans wanted Rick gone: you must not have that good or a memory. When Peja was traded, the team was obviously not doing well, and when the team acquired Artest, he totally turned the team around with his defense and effort. They ended up with a great second half turn around and gave the spurs a run for their money. After that series, the consensus of the fanbase was that the team was on the way up again, and ready to make another upswing. So when Rick was let go, fans were upset because they thought the team was heading in the right direction. It was the owners that had enough with Rick and wanted him out, not the fans.

You're going to have to preface that with "some", because there was certainly a fevered contingent of Adelman bashing fans, stoked up to a high pitch by Voison in particular, who were in a "don't let the door hit you" fervor braying about how Musselman was going to take us places that that softie Adelman could not. Not all, or even likely most. But a very vocal contingent that has oddly gone largely silent in recent years beyond the occasional snark at Adelman from afar.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Prior to Artest coming here I'd say this place was almost 50-50 on Adelman. And frankly that may have been an appropriate time to let him go, but after the Artest turnaround and the showing we had in the playoffs in a matchup where we were predicted to get steamrolled it was a slap in the face. But I do think Adelman lucked out because there is only so much he could do with what was becoming of the team.

 

[Showtime]

Prior to Artest coming here I'd say this place was almost 50-50 on Adelman. And frankly that may have been an appropriate time to let him go, but after the Artest turnaround and the showing we had in the playoffs in a matchup where we were predicted to get steamrolled it was a slap in the face. But I do think Adelman lucked out because there is only so much he could do with what was becoming of the team.

What the majority of the fanbase was upset about was the fact that Rick wasn't allowed the chance to go another round with that team. Sure, it was possible for them to go the same route they did without him, but we will never know how that would turn out.

 

[Solano25]

If you don't like him based off personality, that's fine and probly valid. But his record is outstanding. Who's the second best candidate out there right now? Eddie Jordan? Westphal? Gimme a break.

Actually, I think what AJ did in Dallas is quite similar to what Westphal did in Phoenix. At least Westphal blew the finals to Jordan's Bulls and not a Miami team that had never been there before. And Westphal doesn't have the personality issues AJ has. Of those 3, I would put AJ third (Eddie Jordan definitely first now for me).

Right now, AJ thinks he is a much better coach than he really is. I think he was what Dallas needed to counterbalance Don Nelson's influence of run and gun/ no defense teams prior to that, but starting from scratch is a whole different situation that I doubt he is prepared for.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

What the majority of the fanbase was upset about was the fact that Rick wasn't allowed the chance to go another round with that team. Sure, it was possible for them to go the same route they did without him, but we will never know how that would turn out.

Yes, I thought it was lame at the time too, but that team never took the court again and then we started having guys hurt. Retrospectively its hard to imagine that the team was back on its way up even if we wanted to believe it at the time.

 

[Showtime]

Yes, I thought it was lame at the time too, but that team never took the court again and then we started having guys hurt. Retrospectively its hard to imagine that the team was back on its way up even if we wanted to believe it at the time.

Since we are speculating, I would have liked to have seen Martin develop under Rick. Maybe he might have learned how to pass. Also, I would have liked to have seen Salmons and Garcia at their best under Rick, instead of Muss or Theus. Same goes for Beno. Rick could also handle Artest, something nobody else seems to be able to do.

So even though those teams dealt with injuries and locker room issues, I still would have liked to have seen Rick because I think he could have handled the players better, and done quite a bit with the offense.