Monte McNair’s Trade Deadline Strategy

[Turgenev]

you can go over the rules time and again (not to pick on Buddy) but Buddy is going to miss a clue and do the wrong thing. And at the NBA level it’s harder because guys will do things to disguise their intentions.

I agree with this premise. I've had to teach people to do physical tasks like perform rehabilitation exercises and academic tasks like write a paper or perform an analysis. No matter how simple you can make it, some will not get it.

I feel a good coach can do some things to manage these limitations. For example, Dave said once he didn't like Belly taking more than three dribbles. If Luke applied this constraint to Buddy last year we wouldn't have seen as many bonehead passes. But yes there is a limit.

As for players like MBIII, I believe his defensive limitations are due to his coaching. Doug, as well as some posters here, have commented on his technique being poor. This scouting report says his brothers defence is also clueless. But that might not matter, because if he can't stay on the court he is going to find it hard to make substantial improvement.

Taking it back to the larger argument - what is needed to create a playoff team - a simple coaching change or a complete personnel rebuild? I sit in the rainbow group that thinks the core roster we have is good enough for the 7/8 seed. But think if that was the goal at the start of the season we should've kept Len and Baze. I wouldn't reject player change. Buddy would be great as a microwave off the bench but he doesn't want that role with us. HB is a model professional that can get you a bucket when you need but he's too nice to be your second option. I want MBIII to be successful here and Sac to get value out of him, but if he's hurt and unhappy, it's going to be hard for him to get better. But selling these guys cheap isn't a solution. And getting new talent for the coach we have would be like buying a new car for someone who doesn't have a licence.

 

[mac]

Bball iq matters more when you don't have a good point guard/floor leader to direct things. JR Smith has won two championships despite being a poor bball iq player. The difference is LeBron elevates his teammates. Look at what Chris Paul did with OKC and now with the Suns. That's what good floor leaders do for your team.

 

[dude12]

I don’t think I said everyone on the team has a low IQ. But at high level team sports just one player making the wrong decision can break down a team defense. If you have two you have a real problem.

Again I never said Walton wasn’t an issue just that he isn’t the only issue and changing the coach won’t fix the IQ problem. That would take hitting reset again which is what you said you would do in the other thread. Are our positions really that different?

I didn’t t say I would hit reset. I would play the younger guys. To me hitting reset is trading Barnes, Hield, Holmes and even more. I just think that if you are building or in a quasi rebuild.....and I don’t think it’s a rebuild as much as building, then Woodard should be playing to see what you got. Same goes for James and Guy and to a certain point Ramsey although he seems farther away.

I may have mixed your views with post 159.

We are not on the same page as McNair though.

 

[sactowndog]

Bringing it back to McNair, we are going to get a good sense of his draft acumen in this upcoming draft. In the last draft, Hali feel into his lap and with 3 second round picks none are getting any rotation minutes.

in the next draft after the top 5, it gets tough and is all about ability to project guys to the next level.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Yes they are two completely different types of intelligence and not related at all. The book “The Sports Gene” talks about it in depth.

But what if a player has never had a good coach, how do they develop this IQ without proper training?

Bagley, for example, his dad controlled his development before college - he coached the AAU team and moved him a few times in high school because he was coach shopping for the guy that would let Marvin be Marvin. He spent one year at Duke and then was drafted by Sac and had Joerger - who just didn't like him and wanted a different player and made sure everyone knew it - followed by Luke, who it is pretty clear is not good at developing players and maybe can coach a team that coaches itself.

So he's had one good coach for one year of his career. Is it not possible with the right environment he can unlearn his flaws and fix his game? Or is he forever destined to be "low IQ" because of his poor coaching until his mid-20s?

Honest question.

 

[King Baller]

Marvin just turned 22 in March. So he is still pretty young and has upside. The injuries have stunted his growth. He is what he is. A physically gifted 6' 11" player who has been injury prone up to now.

Reports say McNair tried to trade him for Saddiq Bey which is the type of deal that could work out for both parties. Anyhow I would not be surprised to see Marvin traded in the upcoming off season.

 

[ESP47]

But what if a player has never had a good coach, how do they develop this IQ without proper training?

Bagley, for example, his dad controlled his development before college - he coached the AAU team and moved him a few times in high school because he was coach shopping for the guy that would let Marvin be Marvin. He spent one year at Duke and then was drafted by Sac and had Joerger - who just didn't like him and wanted a different player and made sure everyone knew it - followed by Luke, who it is pretty clear is not good at developing players and maybe can coach a team that coaches itself.

So he's had one good coach for one year of his career. Is it not possible with the right environment he can unlearn his flaws and fix his game? Or is he forever destined to be "low IQ" because of his poor coaching until his mid-20s?

Honest question.

It's not like we know the ins and outs of things behind the scenes but the Kings do have Rico Hines, who is renown for developing younger players.

It doesn't really matter if he learns how to pass the ball around better or if he winds up being able to put up 20 and 10. His defense will always make him unplayable and it's not likely to improve enough to make him anything more than prime Jabari Parker at his peak.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

His defense will always make him unplayable and it's not likely to improve enough to make him anything more than prime Jabari Parker at his peak.

But isn't that the thing, he's never been forced to "play defense or don't play". He also hasn't really been in a competent defensive scheme the last two seasons and even Joerger who came in with some defensive reputation went all in on "pace". Surely someone can put him in the position to succeed, it's just quite unfortunate we wasted three years where we could decide what to do with him long term without doing so.

 

[ESP47]

But isn't that the thing, he's never been forced to "play defense or don't play". He also hasn't really been in a competent defensive scheme the last two seasons and even Joerger who came in with some defensive reputation went all in on "pace". Surely someone can put him in the position to succeed, it's just quite unfortunate we wasted three years where we could decide what to do with him long term without doing so.

The list of big men that came into the league as bad as Bagley defensively and then improved to average from year 4 on is probably in the single digits or zero. It's just something that hardly ever happens. This isn't like a player developing a shot. This is one of those things that a player either has or he doesn't. Not only does Bags not have it, but he doesn't have the body or the wingspan to do it either. There are point guards in this league with the same or longer wing spans than he has.

How much should this franchise bend over backwards to invest in his development? We are the worst defensive team in the league at the moment and all he does is cement the Kings as a poor defensive team. The problem is that you cannot hide him on defense if you want to get anything out of him on offense. He's just a sunk cost at this point. Investing in him holds the other players back that are better than him and it holds the franchise back because they'll never get out of this defensive hole that they're in.

They need to look into getting players that are better than him. Not investing more wasted seasons on an investment that looks worse and worse by the year.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

The list of big men that came into the league as bad as Bagley defensively and then improved to average from year 4 on is probably in the single digits or zero. It's just something that hardly ever happens. This isn't like a player developing a shot. This is one of those things that a player either has or he doesn't. Not only does Bags not have it, but he doesn't have the body or the wingspan to do it either. There are point guards in this league with the same or longer wing spans than he has.

How much should this franchise bend over backwards to invest in his development? We are the worst defensive team in the league at the moment and all he does is cement the Kings as a poor defensive team. The problem is that you cannot hide him on defense if you want to get anything out of him on offense. He's just a sunk cost at this point. Investing in him holds the other players back that are better than him and it holds the franchise back because they'll never get out of this defensive hole that they're in.

They need to look into getting players that are better than him. Not investing more wasted seasons on an investment that looks worse and worse by the year.

I'm not really arguing that the team should continue investing in Bagley as much as I'm acknowledging/pointing out we completely blew it by not even trying to correct it in the first place.

 

[sactowndog]

But what if a player has never had a good coach, how do they develop this IQ without proper training?

Bagley, for example, his dad controlled his development before college - he coached the AAU team and moved him a few times in high school because he was coach shopping for the guy that would let Marvin be Marvin. He spent one year at Duke and then was drafted by Sac and had Joerger - who just didn't like him and wanted a different player and made sure everyone knew it - followed by Luke, who it is pretty clear is not good at developing players and maybe can coach a team that coaches itself.

So he's had one good coach for one year of his career. Is it not possible with the right environment he can unlearn his flaws and fix his game? Or is he forever destined to be "low IQ" because of his poor coaching until his mid-20s?

Honest question.

it’s a fair question. The lack of coaching is why I was okay with the Bagley pick. (Boy was i wrong)

to me IQ is like a ceiling that coaches can bring you up to but not over. I agree it’s not clear to me either Bagley has reached his IQ ceiling. Not because Walton is bad but because Bags has played so little.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

it’s a fair question. The lack of coaching is why I was okay with the Bagley pick. (Boy was i wrong)

to me IQ is like a ceiling that coaches can bring you up to but not over. I agree it’s not clear to me either Bagley has reached his IQ ceiling. Not because Walton is bad but because Bags has played so little.

It's both in my mind, but we're past the date to really keep sinking more in. He'll play on the qualifying offer year 5 and probably be gone.

 

[sactowndog]

It's both in my mind, but we're past the date to really keep sinking more in. He'll play on the qualifying offer year 5 and probably be gone.

Perhaps but for a kid who has been injured often it’s a big risk.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Perhaps but for a kid who has been injured often it’s a big risk.

You think he'd take less money though?

 

[sactowndog]

You think he'd take less money though?

depends on how smart he is. He should take a $6-8M 3 year deal. Which would be more than a one year qualifying offer.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

depends on how smart he is. He should take a $6-8M 3 year deal. Which would be more than a one year qualifying offer.

But then he'd be stuck in Sac (unless we move him, which I am not opposed to).

 

[sactowndog]

But then he'd be stuck in Sac (unless we move him, which I am not opposed to).

3 years at his age is nothing.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

3 years at his age is nothing.

I guess it all depends on how much influence dad exerts in his life outside of twitter.

 

[sactowndog]

It's not like we know the ins and outs of things behind the scenes but the Kings do have Rico Hines, who is renown for developing younger players.

It doesn't really matter if he learns how to pass the ball around better or if he winds up being able to put up 20 and 10. His defense will always make him unplayable and it's not likely to improve enough to make him anything more than prime Jabari Parker at his peak.

Meh. He might be prime Kelly Oubre.

 

[Tetsujin]

In the month of May, Delon Wright has averaged 16.4 ppg, 6.6 rbs, 6.6 asts, 2.8stls, 1 blk across five games and generally been our best player while pretty much all three of our main options remain out with a wide range of injuries/illnesses. He's under contract for next season and pretty much solidifies our lead guard situation until at least the 2022-2023 season.

Moe Harkless has taken a while to round into shape and while the advanced metrics haven't exactly been kind to him he's brought a hard edge to this team that has been lacking aside from the couple of weeks a year over the last couple of seasons when we've had Corey Brewer on our roster. He's a free agent this offseason but probably not going to cost much to re-sign, though there is a good chance that a contender/playoff team offers him a chance to jump ship.

Terence Davis has been an absolute steal, considering the best outcome you could hope to have for a typical second round pick is a player giving TD's production. He'll be 24 in a week, so he absolutely fits the timeline of our two main core pieces in Fox and Haliburton and perhaps more importantly, potentially makes Buddy completely expendable in offseason with his role as a catch-and-shoot player and occasionally explosive scorer filling the same ideal role as Buddy and his edge and athleticism on defense an ideal fit for a guy who'll potentially be playing next to Fox and Haliburton over the next five years. Plus he probably won't through a major fit when he gets asked to come off the bench. He's a restricted free agent this offseason but his past off-court issues might scare off plenty of suitors and he shouldn't cost too much money to bring back on a longer deal.

All in all, it's hard to get too mad about Monte turning CoJo (actually putting up decent numbers as the lead guard for the tanking Pistons), Bjeli (currently shooting 19% from three as a benchwarmer for the Heat, and a couple of second round picks into peace of mind regarding guard depth, a tough veteran leader/big wing defender who you got to test drive for a stretch of games, and a potential longterm rotation piece who occasionally shows flashes of being surprisingly good.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

In the month of May, Delon Wright has averaged 16.4 ppg, 6.6 rbs, 6.6 asts, 2.8stls, 1 blk across five games and generally been our best player while pretty much all three of our main options remain out with a wide range of injuries/illnesses. He's under contract for next season and pretty much solidifies our lead guard situation until at least the 2022-2023 season.

Moe Harkless has taken a while to round into shape and while the advanced metrics haven't exactly been kind to him he's brought a hard edge to this team that has been lacking aside from the couple of weeks a year over the last couple of seasons when we've had Corey Brewer on our roster. He's a free agent this offseason but probably not going to cost much to re-sign, though there is a good chance that a contender/playoff team offers him a chance to jump ship.

Terence Davis has been an absolute steal, considering the best outcome you could hope to have for a typical second round pick is a player giving TD's production. He'll be 24 in a week, so he absolutely fits the timeline of our two main core pieces in Fox and Haliburton and perhaps more importantly, potentially makes Buddy completely expendable in offseason with his role as a catch-and-shoot player and occasionally explosive scorer filling the same ideal role as Buddy and his edge and athleticism on defense an ideal fit for a guy who'll potentially be playing next to Fox and Haliburton over the next five years. Plus he probably won't through a major fit when he gets asked to come off the bench. He's a restricted free agent this offseason but his past off-court issues might scare off plenty of suitors and he shouldn't cost too much money to bring back on a longer deal.

All in all, it's hard to get too mad about Monte turning CoJo (actually putting up decent numbers as the lead guard for the tanking Pistons), Bjeli (currently shooting 19% from three as a benchwarmer for the Heat, and a couple of second round picks into peace of mind regarding guard depth, a tough veteran leader/big wing defender who you got to test drive for a stretch of games, and a potential longterm rotation piece who occasionally shows flashes of being surprisingly good.

Plus it leaves us next year really only needing to find a way to keep Holmes, nail our draft pick wherever it falls, and hopefully get a solid rotation piece with our MLE.

Of course we also have decisions to make on Bagley and Buddy but those are their own matters.

 

[SacTownKid]

In the month of May, Delon Wright has averaged 16.4 ppg, 6.6 rbs, 6.6 asts, 2.8stls, 1 blk across five games and generally been our best player while pretty much all three of our main options remain out with a wide range of injuries/illnesses. He's under contract for next season and pretty much solidifies our lead guard situation until at least the 2022-2023 season.

Moe Harkless has taken a while to round into shape and while the advanced metrics haven't exactly been kind to him he's brought a hard edge to this team that has been lacking aside from the couple of weeks a year over the last couple of seasons when we've had Corey Brewer on our roster. He's a free agent this offseason but probably not going to cost much to re-sign, though there is a good chance that a contender/playoff team offers him a chance to jump ship.

Terence Davis has been an absolute steal, considering the best outcome you could hope to have for a typical second round pick is a player giving TD's production. He'll be 24 in a week, so he absolutely fits the timeline of our two main core pieces in Fox and Haliburton and perhaps more importantly, potentially makes Buddy completely expendable in offseason with his role as a catch-and-shoot player and occasionally explosive scorer filling the same ideal role as Buddy and his edge and athleticism on defense an ideal fit for a guy who'll potentially be playing next to Fox and Haliburton over the next five years. Plus he probably won't through a major fit when he gets asked to come off the bench. He's a restricted free agent this offseason but his past off-court issues might scare off plenty of suitors and he shouldn't cost too much money to bring back on a longer deal.

All in all, it's hard to get too mad about Monte turning CoJo (actually putting up decent numbers as the lead guard for the tanking Pistons), Bjeli (currently shooting 19% from three as a benchwarmer for the Heat, and a couple of second round picks into peace of mind regarding guard depth, a tough veteran leader/big wing defender who you got to test drive for a stretch of games, and a potential longterm rotation piece who occasionally shows flashes of being surprisingly good.

True. All of it. The only issue is the totality of it all. How much is it going to cost to keep the team together and is it worth it in any other way than keeping a core of guys together? Especially when it's a team that has legit talent and tons of depth but that hasn't shown a consistent ability to matter beyond beating up on lowly teams (welcome to the clean up folks!) with a coach known for utilizing role players over stars and showcasing them as such. Monte is going to be forced to play some risky games at the NBA casino this summer because now he's looking at re-signing players that are of the filler/role player variety and the only realistic option to do it is to move more talented players or ones with star potential if he's going to avoid cementing his own tomb financially. When you haven't been winning that's a huuuuge risk. Last summer he got a nice little smack of reality in his first go around and this team hasn't done much other than a few role player deadline moves to change the direction here. If they come back with Walton at the helm, a draft pick outside of the mega talent window at potentially a position of not so great need, a stuffed cap, and a bunch of positional duplication that has only worked largely because of injury (just like last year, and just like last year it hasn't brought serious winning with it), and more of the same it could set this franchise back for years and years. This could very well be Cuz part II. It's like a zombie that won't die. A transition coach, a team with a mismatched identity of young players needing development and role players, some of which are expecting to be paid this summer, getting those minutes no matter how far down or up in a game. The team does have talent and while Walton hasn't "lost" his locker room he's clearly lost the teams focus more than once this season. That wavering eventually comes back to bite you. If they come in the same next season and it doesn't work they've only walked farther away from one goal post and then they are totally subject to whatever is available out there in order to determine how quick they can race back to the other one so they can start over.

 

[SacTownKid]

Plus it leaves us next year really only needing to find a way to keep Holmes, nail our draft pick wherever it falls, and hopefully get a solid rotation piece with our MLE.

Of course we also have decisions to make on Bagley and Buddy but those are their own matters.

Only, haha. On paper Monte gambled for the play in and so far, he's down on that bet. We'll see how it ends and part of that was the universe telling him to suck it unfortunately but what he's done and hasn't done only makes this summer tougher for him.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Only, haha. On paper Monte gambled for the play in and so far, he's down on that bet. We'll see how it ends and part of that was the universe telling him to suck it unfortunately but what he's done and hasn't done only makes this summer tougher for him.

I don't entirely agree it was a gamble on the playin. We had no cap room headed into the summer because Holmes was going to take that space unless we renounced. So it actually was a pretty solid future move to get those guys while we could. I know they aren't huge move the needle pieces, but I think if nothing else it gives us some guys who might have value again at next year's deadline.

It's pretty fair to say that nobody is going to sign off on a process in Sacramento and even if that's what people wanted it means shipping out EVERYONE except maybe Tyrese.

 

[SacTownKid]

I don't entirely agree it was a gamble on the playin. We had no cap room headed into the summer because Holmes was going to take that space unless we renounced. So it actually was a pretty solid future move to get those guys while we could. I know they aren't huge move the needle pieces, but I think if nothing else it gives us some guys who might have value again at next year's deadline.

It's pretty fair to say that nobody is going to sign off on a process in Sacramento and even if that's what people wanted it means shipping out EVERYONE except maybe Tyrese.

The only one guaranteed to be here is Wright. And him being here actually restricts some of that ability to retain Holmes. Now I don't think Harkless and Davis will have teams beating down their doors but you never know.

And they don't need a process. They already have talent almost everything in the NBA is timing. Build assets, don't bury them, and flip them BEFORE tough calls have to be made. He could have looked at that with Holmes at the deadline and didn't. Just like Vlade didn't with Bogdan. I do think Monte made a wise call with Bogdan. Sign him back to that deal and someone at SG is an albatross and Tyrese is Woodardville, I have no doubts about that. Still, there are some tough decisions to be made.

 

[jiimbob]

In the month of May, Delon Wright has averaged 16.4 ppg, 6.6 rbs, 6.6 asts, 2.8stls, 1 blk across five games and generally been our best player while pretty much all three of our main options remain out with a wide range of injuries/illnesses. He's under contract for next season and pretty much solidifies our lead guard situation until at least the 2022-2023 season.

Moe Harkless has taken a while to round into shape and while the advanced metrics haven't exactly been kind to him he's brought a hard edge to this team that has been lacking aside from the couple of weeks a year over the last couple of seasons when we've had Corey Brewer on our roster. He's a free agent this offseason but probably not going to cost much to re-sign, though there is a good chance that a contender/playoff team offers him a chance to jump ship.

Terence Davis has been an absolute steal, considering the best outcome you could hope to have for a typical second round pick is a player giving TD's production. He'll be 24 in a week, so he absolutely fits the timeline of our two main core pieces in Fox and Haliburton and perhaps more importantly, potentially makes Buddy completely expendable in offseason with his role as a catch-and-shoot player and occasionally explosive scorer filling the same ideal role as Buddy and his edge and athleticism on defense an ideal fit for a guy who'll potentially be playing next to Fox and Haliburton over the next five years. Plus he probably won't through a major fit when he gets asked to come off the bench. He's a restricted free agent this offseason but his past off-court issues might scare off plenty of suitors and he shouldn't cost too much money to bring back on a longer deal.

All in all, it's hard to get too mad about Monte turning CoJo (actually putting up decent numbers as the lead guard for the tanking Pistons), Bjeli (currently shooting 19% from three as a benchwarmer for the Heat, and a couple of second round picks into peace of mind regarding guard depth, a tough veteran leader/big wing defender who you got to test drive for a stretch of games, and a potential longterm rotation piece who occasionally shows flashes of being surprisingly good.

Nice read. Monte put together a pretty respectable second unit in one swoop with Wright, Davis, and Harkless. Throw in Metu and our next best big and not bad.
It does appear to make Buddy expendable.... likely not a chance in hell but if that’s a way to move up and draft Mobley then I would say we have a team.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Surprised no one has mention Barnes yet in this recent thread bump. To me, keeping Barnes was the key decision point of the deadline. I think whether or not you were happy with the deadline most likely aligns with whether or not you were happy about keeping Barnes.

 

[ESP47]

Surprised no one has mention Barnes yet in this recent thread bump. To me, keeping Barnes was the key decision point of the deadline. I think whether or not you were happy with the deadline most likely aligns with whether or not you were happy about keeping Barnes.

Nesmith has started heating up a bit, which could potentially change people's minds if that offer was really on the table.

 

[sactowndog]

In the month of May, Delon Wright has averaged 16.4 ppg, 6.6 rbs, 6.6 asts, 2.8stls, 1 blk across five games and generally been our best player while pretty much all three of our main options remain out with a wide range of injuries/illnesses. He's under contract for next season and pretty much solidifies our lead guard situation until at least the 2022-2023 season.

Moe Harkless has taken a while to round into shape and while the advanced metrics haven't exactly been kind to him he's brought a hard edge to this team that has been lacking aside from the couple of weeks a year over the last couple of seasons when we've had Corey Brewer on our roster. He's a free agent this offseason but probably not going to cost much to re-sign, though there is a good chance that a contender/playoff team offers him a chance to jump ship.

Terence Davis has been an absolute steal, considering the best outcome you could hope to have for a typical second round pick is a player giving TD's production. He'll be 24 in a week, so he absolutely fits the timeline of our two main core pieces in Fox and Haliburton and perhaps more importantly, potentially makes Buddy completely expendable in offseason with his role as a catch-and-shoot player and occasionally explosive scorer filling the same ideal role as Buddy and his edge and athleticism on defense an ideal fit for a guy who'll potentially be playing next to Fox and Haliburton over the next five years. Plus he probably won't through a major fit when he gets asked to come off the bench. He's a restricted free agent this offseason but his past off-court issues might scare off plenty of suitors and he shouldn't cost too much money to bring back on a longer deal.

All in all, it's hard to get too mad about Monte turning CoJo (actually putting up decent numbers as the lead guard for the tanking Pistons), Bjeli (currently shooting 19% from three as a benchwarmer for the Heat, and a couple of second round picks into peace of mind regarding guard depth, a tough veteran leader/big wing defender who you got to test drive for a stretch of games, and a potential longterm rotation piece who occasionally shows flashes of being surprisingly good.

so the disagreements I would have is two

1) May numbers can be deceiving especially when you are playing OKC 3 times who is playing a G league team

2) Building a championship team is like filling a glass with rocks. You have to start with the big pieces first and then fill in around them. Unless you think Bagley is a star we are missing a big piece or two in the front court. Now was the wrong year to fill in the complementary pieces.