Michael Gilchrist, the player I wanted:

[bajaden]

Dunno why you guys are hung up on these 2. Lillard was the best choice !

I was very impressed with Lillard in summer league. He's a much better athlete than I thought, and I thought he was a good athlete. I think he has a chance to be a star in the league. Another player that Portland picked also impressed me, and that was Meyer's Leonard. First how big he was in person, and secondly how fast he ran the floor for a big man. I think Portland helped themselves quite a bit with those two choices.

 

[Section 101]

I was very impressed with Lillard in summer league. He's a much better athlete than I thought, and I thought he was a good athlete. I think he has a chance to be a star in the league. Another player that Portland picked also impressed me, and that was Meyer's Leonard. First how big he was in person, and secondly how fast he ran the floor for a big man. I think Portland helped themselves quite a bit with those two choices.

Will be seeing both tonight !

 

[beb0p]

Regarding Drummond, first of all, don't think it's fair to ask any fan to make that call, "Would you draft Drummond at #5...." We aren't privy to a significant amount of information that the King has - the workout, the interview, the psychological test, etc. Guys like MKG, I don't need to see his workout, I know he is good. But Drummond, this dude is a riddle wrapped inside a mystery. Workouts are for guys like Drummond, and we don't get to see them; so no way do us fans have enough data to make that call about picking him at #5.

Second, I was disappointed with how the Kings work out Drummond - they paired him against a 6'-9 230 pound dude.... really? The best way to gauge Drummond is to let him go against a short skinny undrafted guy? I doubt the Kings got anything out of watching that matchup. When Detroit worked out DJ White some years ago, they brought in two seven footers to physically manhandle White and see how he fares. That's how you conduct workout - to mimick game situation and see they react. I'd have brought in some big, hard, tough as nail players (Robert Sacre and Festus Ezeli come to mind) and see how Drummond handle them.

I have been skeptical of the Kings' workout format for a while now. They brought in Jimmer and had him shoot threes (is that even necessary? Instead, maybe should have tested his PG skill?); they had Drummond block soft tosses (Really? They want to know if a shotblocker can block Bobby Jackson??), do alley hoops, and (my favorite!) dunk the ball. Drummond showed a few niffy post moves but it was against a 6'-9 230 pounder! It's impossible to untangle the riddle of Drummond with that workout. My problem is that the Kings wouldn't know it if they had stumbled upon the next great defensive big man the way that they were working them out.

Third, if the Kings had drafted Damion Lillard, Harrison Barnes, or Henson; I'd have been ok even if Drummond turns out to be a monster because the Kings would have filled a need. But Trob doesn't fill a need, he is a best-player-available pick and I honestly don't think he is BPA. Furthermore, they picked him without working him out so part of me is wondering if the Kings really know what player they were drafting. At the same time, Drummond, even with his issues, clearly is a player that the Kings can use.

I guess time will tell if this is the right pick. I think eventually both Drummond and RTob will end up being useful career journeyman type, one offers size and shotblocking while the other one offers rebounding and hustle.

 

[bajaden]

Regarding Drummond, first of all, don't think it's fair to ask any fan to make that call, "Would you draft Drummond at #5...." We aren't privy to a significant amount of information that the King has - the workout, the interview, the psychological test, etc. Guys like MKG, I don't need to see his workout, I know he is good. But Drummond, this dude is a riddle wrapped inside a mystery. Workouts are for guys like Drummond, and we don't get to see them; so no way do us fans have enough data to make that call about picking him at #5.

Second, I was disappointed with how the Kings work out Drummond - they paired him against a 6'-9 230 pound dude.... really? The best way to gauge Drummond is to let him go against a short skinny undrafted guy? I doubt the Kings got anything out of watching that matchup. When Detroit worked out DJ White some years ago, they brought in two seven footers to physically manhandle White and see how he fares. That's how you conduct workout - to mimick game situation and see they react. I'd have brought in some big, hard, tough as nail players (Robert Sacre and Festus Ezeli come to mind) and see how Drummond handle them.

I have been skeptical of the Kings' workout format for a while now. They brought in Jimmer and had him shoot threes (is that even necessary? Instead, maybe should have tested his PG skill?); they had Drummond block soft tosses (Really? They want to know if a shotblocker can block Bobby Jackson??), do alley hoops, and (my favorite!) dunk the ball. Drummond showed a few niffy post moves but it was against a 6'-9 230 pounder! It's impossible to untangle the riddle of Drummond with that workout. My problem is that the Kings wouldn't know it if they had stumbled upon the next great defensive big man the way that they were working them out.

Third, if the Kings had drafted Damion Lillard, Harrison Barnes, or Henson; I'd have been ok even if Drummond turns out to be a monster because the Kings would have filled a need. But Trob doesn't fill a need, he is a best-player-available pick and I honestly don't think he is BPA. Furthermore, they picked him without working him out so part of me is wondering if the Kings really know what player they were drafting. At the same time, Drummond, even with his issues, clearly is a player that the Kings can use.

I guess time will tell if this is the right pick. I think eventually both Drummond and RTob will end up being useful career journeyman type, one offers size and shotblocking while the other one offers rebounding and hustle.

Couple of things. When they worked out Fredette, they also had several other PG's in the draft in at the same workout. So he did work out against equal competition. And obviously he must have shot the ball well. However, I don't doubt that all the PR surrounding Jimmer lent itself to his being drafted by the Kings. Your right about Robinson not being worked out by the Kings, but I know for a fact that Petrie was at two of Kansas games because they showed him in the stands. So he did see him play in actual games. I know that Petrie was also at a UCONN game.

Lets face it, they have tons of film on these guys, and probably the only reason you really need to bring in a player and work him out is to remove any little doubts you might have. You've seen them in games, you have all your scouting reports, and film, and you've seen them at the combine. I'm not really sure how much more you can glean from personal workouts unless your just not that familar with a particular player. That said, if your going to work out a player, then I agree with you, bring in legit competition.

 

[Dime Dropper]

Dunno why you guys are hung up on these 2. Lillard was the best choice !

He wasn't the best fit for us, but I wouldn't be surprised if we actually do regret not taking him down the road. Thomas and Brooks likely won't start for a contender, and Lillard is looking very good. I was a big fan of him before the draft, but we had other needs. He's going to be very, very good for Portland.

 

[beb0p]

Couple of things. When they worked out Fredette, they also had several other PG's in the draft in at the same workout. So he did work out against equal competition. And obviously he must have shot the ball well. However, I don't doubt that all the PR surrounding Jimmer lent itself to his being drafted by the Kings. Your right about Robinson not being worked out by the Kings, but I know for a fact that Petrie was at two of Kansas games because they showed him in the stands. So he did see him play in actual games. I know that Petrie was also at a UCONN game.

Lets face it, they have tons of film on these guys, and probably the only reason you really need to bring in a player and work him out is to remove any little doubts you might have. You've seen them in games, you have all your scouting reports, and film, and you've seen them at the combine. I'm not really sure how much more you can glean from personal workouts unless your just not that familar with a particular player. That said, if your going to work out a player, then I agree with you, bring in legit competition.

I don't consider Randy Culpepper equal competition at PG. Jimmer worked out with five other guys and Culpepper was the only other PG there. The others were big men and SFs. I have no doubt that Jimmer owned Culpepper, but which NBA guard wouldn't own Culpepper? How about a big point guard face-off (similar to Tyreke's 2009 audition) and really see if Jimmer could hold his own against draft-worthy PGs.

Anyone who has ever saw Marc Gasol at similar age wouldn't think he could play in the NBA let alone be as good as he is now. Some players are pretty easy to project, some are absolute mysteries. Some very good players don't look that impressive in games at age 19/20. Drummond is one of the biggest mysteries of the decade. I don't care how many games one saw, there's no way one can project Drummond just based off of watching films and scouting reports. Workouts are essential to evaluating a guy like Drummond because there is so much that you don't know. Just for comparison, the Bobcats had Drummond go against TRob. Now, that's a workout!! You and I are in agreement that good competition is vital for a good workout.

I'm pretty sure Petrie watched a lot of films and attended games of the top prospects in the draft. I'm still concern that the Kings may have brought into the TRob hype.... and makes no mistake, there was a lot of hype surrounding TRob. With that said, I'd have no problem if he turns out to be awesome.

 

[Gilles]

I'm going with simple floor projection. I knew:
1) he has at least top-20 physical attributes in draft history,
2) he was top-5 overall defender in college basketball statistically,
3) he has good hands - he won't catch a rocket flying through the paint for sure, but he gets what he should,
4) he boxes out and is impossible to move.

 

[bajaden]

I'm going with simple floor projection. I knew:
1) he has at least top-20 physical attributes in draft history,
2) he was top-5 overall defender in college basketball statistically,
3) he has good hands - he won't catch a rocket flying through the paint for sure, but he gets what he should,
4) he boxes out and is impossible to move.

I hate to belabor a point, but I'm not sure what your basing your points on. Drummond is not in the top twenty of any the statistical areas other than blocked shots where he's 13th in total blocks, and 14th in blocks per game. Here is a reference site that your welcome to examine, and here are some of the stats. http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/2012-leaders.html

Defensive Rebound Leaders:
1. Thomas Robinson - 350
2. Draymond Green - 315
3. Anthony Davis - 296
4. Andre Roberson - 290
5. Drew Gordon - 280
6. Mike Moser - 277
7. Jamelle Hagins - 268
8. John Henson - 259
9. Jack Carmichael - 259
10. Kyle O'Quinn - 258
Drummond not listed in top 20

Total Rebound leaders:
1. Thomas Robiinson - 463
2. Anthony Davis - 415
3. Andre Roberson - 401
4. Draymond Green - 394
5. O.D. Anosike - 388
6. Drew Gordon - 388
7. Wendell McKines - 374
8. Kyle O'Quinn - 372
9. Mike Moser - 369
10. Ty Zeller - 365
Drummond not in the top 20

Blocked shot Leaders:
1. Anthony Davis - 186 - Per game - 4.7
2. Jeff Withey - 140 - Per game - 3.6
3. Gorqui Dieng - 128 - Per game - 3.2
4. William Mosley - 125 - Per game - 3.9
5. C.J. Aiken - 120 - Per game - 3.5
6. Eric Buckner - 118 - Per game - 3.5
7. Damian Ergle - 116
8. Darius Garrett - 107 - Per game - 3.3
9. John Henson - 101 - Per game - 2.9
10. Kyle O'Quinn - 97 - Per game - 2.7
Andre Drummond came in 13 overall, and 14th in per game with 92 and 2.7

Overall Defensive rating:
1. Anthony Davis - 80.3
2. Taylor Smith - 81.4
3. Darion Atkins - 82.0
4. Drew Gordon - 82.3
5. Ehimen Orukpe - 82.5
6. Briante Weber - 83.2
7. Leonard Washington - 83.7
8. Draymond Green - 83.8
9. Arnold Louis - 84.8
!0. Thomas Robinson - 84.8
11. Andre Roberson - 85.0
12. Mike Moser - 85.3
13. Jeff Withey - 85.3
14. Gorqui Dieng - 85.4
15. Jyles Smith - 85.4
16. Anton Gandy - 85.5
17. Arsalan Kazemi - 85.7
18. Jae Crowder - 85.7
19. Russ Smith - 85.8
20. Jared Sullinger - 85.8

Player Efficiency rating:
1. Anthony Davis - 35.1
2. Damian Lillard - 34.0
3. C.J. McCollum - 32.4
4. Doug McDermott - 32.2
5. Andrew Nicholson - 31.6
6. Mike Muscala - 31.5
7. Cody Zeller - 31.3
8. Reggie Hamilton - 31.1
9. De'Mon Brooks - 30.9
10. Mike Scott - 30.7

I could go on and show the offensive ratings, and you'd see that Anthony Davis came in third in that catagory. I bring this up because Davis and Drummond were both thought of as the best highschool player in the nation coming into college depending on which top 100 you'd look at. But at the end of the year, Davis name is in just about every catagory and Drummond is absent. There is no way he was a top 5 defensive player in the nation last year. If he were, someone would have drafted him in the top five, if not the top 2. There's a reason he fell. He didn't make the top ten in any statistical catagory, and only made the top 20 in one catagory.

If you want to say you think he has the ability to be top defensive star, based on what you've seen on youtube and the few good games he had last year, thats a different story. But there's no statistical proof of that. You said he boxes out and is impossible to move. Sorry, but I watched every game that was televised with him and one of my biggest complaints was that he didn't box out all the time, which is why he wasn't in the top 20 rebounders in the nation. Nor did he post up all the time on offense. Nothing would have made me happier than if he had impressed me. But too many times I came away disappointed. One good game followed by 4 bad games. As I said, I hope he figures it out.

 

[Gilles]

First, did you just throw total numbers instead of per-game pace-ajusted or simple block, reb. percentages? Also important to understand - he's very young. Let's take two other youngsters - Dwight Howard and Andrew Bynum who came in the League at a very tender age and improved their rebounding significantly within a couple of years, although there's always an example of Eddy Curry, Deandre Jordan and Kwame Brown who are the same rebounders they were when they first stepped on the NBA court.
I also remember DX throwing some Synergy staff that showed he was top defender in post-ups and PnR. His defensive rebounding is the only thing lacking but he boxes out very well.
Withey, for example, was an average defensive rebounder on paper because he always was going out to contest shots and it was Thor's role to secure defensive rebounds. Btw Robinson was pretty average offensive rebounder (secured only 11% of available rebounds) but it must have been his role given what he showed so far in the NBA.

 

[bajaden]

First, did you just throw total numbers instead of per-game pace-ajusted or simple block, reb. percentages? Also important to understand - he's very young. Let's take two other youngsters - Dwight Howard and Andrew Bynum who came in the League at a very tender age and improved their rebounding significantly within a couple of years, although there's always an example of Eddy Curry, Deandre Jordan and Kwame Brown who are the same rebounders they were when they first stepped on the NBA court.
I also remember DX throwing some Synergy staff that showed he was top defender in post-ups and PnR. His defensive rebounding is the only thing lacking but he boxes out very well.
Withey, for example, was an average defensive rebounder on paper because he always was going out to contest shots and it was Thor's role to secure defensive rebounds. Btw Robinson was pretty average offensive rebounder (secured only 11% of available rebounds) but it must have been his role given what he showed so far in the NBA.

First off, I posted the website for you to look at. Its a college basketball reference site. So here's the thing. You don't have to prove to me that he has potential. We're in agreement. What were discussing, or at least I'am, is where he should have been drafted based on his performance, and not on his potential. Yes he's young, but so is Anthony Davis, to who he was being compared at the beginning of last year.

If you go to that site, you'll notice that Davis, despite his youth, is in the top ten of every single catagory that would refer to a big man, and in many cases, he's number one. Its hard to criticize Robinson when he led all of college in rebounding and he also made the top ten in overall defensive rating. Drummond is nowhere to be seen. All I'm doing is trying to keep prespective here. Yes, its likely that Detriot may have gotten a steal at 9 or 10, wherever they drafted him, but based on everything known about Drummond prior to the draft, thats about where he should have been drafted.

 

[Gilles]

1st pick is much more valuable than #5 since you get to choose the best player and just as NBA as a whole the biggest difference in the quality is at the top. I would take Davis over Drummond, but he wasn't in conversation after #1.
Davis drops significantly when you take percentages:
off.reb% - 11.5, best - 22.54
def.reb.% - 23.7, best - 30.63 (Thor btw)
bl% - 13.74, best - 15.27 (Jeff Withey)
Then you go to coaching quality and th fact that Drummond came to UConn only in September. Then to teammates where Davis had better passers and much more unselfishness throughout the whole team which would've highlighted how good Drummond is as a finisher.
Then the difference between college and NBA in style of play. NBA has much more athleticism, more spacing which means guys who move well off the ball and play PnR on both ends are much more valuable. Drummond is that guy.
Finally, body type: in college Davis was elite athlete, in the League he doesn't look that impressive, Drummond stays at the top-5 and is able to play both C and PF. Imagine how 240 pound PFs by the end of the game would've felt after wrestling with 285 pound athlete.
In the end Kings didn't have the choice between Davis and Drummond, which is not that obvous, they had to decide whether they want Drummond.

All I've written in this thread only means I really like Drummond. I also think Thor is going to be a good pro on both ends of the floor. I saw an excellent athlete in Kansas games but he surprised me with his quickness and handles.

 

[bajaden]

1st pick is much more valuable than #5 since you get to choose the best player and just as NBA as a whole the biggest difference in the quality is at the top. I would take Davis over Drummond, but he wasn't in conversation after #1.
Davis drops significantly when you take percentages:
off.reb% - 11.5, best - 22.54
def.reb.% - 23.7, best - 30.63 (Thor btw)
bl% - 13.74, best - 15.27 (Jeff Withey)
Then you go to coaching quality and th fact that Drummond came to UConn only in September. Then to teammates where Davis had better passers and much more unselfishness throughout the whole team which would've highlighted how good Drummond is as a finisher.
Then the difference between college and NBA in style of play. NBA has much more athleticism, more spacing which means guys who move well off the ball and play PnR on both ends are much more valuable. Drummond is that guy.
Finally, body type: in college Davis was elite athlete, in the League he doesn't look that impressive, Drummond stays at the top-5 and is able to play both C and PF. Imagine how 240 pound PFs by the end of the game would've felt after wrestling with 285 pound athlete.
In the end Kings didn't have the choice between Davis and Drummond, which is not that obvous, they had to decide whether they want Drummond.

All I've written in this thread only means I really like Drummond. I also think Thor is going to be a good pro on both ends of the floor. I saw an excellent athlete in Kansas games but he surprised me with his quickness and handles.

I'll finish my thoughts on this by saying, if Drummond ends up being the next Dwight Howard, I'll join you in a mass sucide ritual. But it is what it is, and we have Robinson. As I said earlier, if we had taken Barnes, or Lillard (who we didn't really have a need for), I would have been OK with those choices. But I was a little higher on Barnes than others were. So lets just hope that Robinson ends up being a good player in some capacity, either at PF or SF or perhaps a little bit of both.

 

[Section 101]

I'll finish my thoughts on this by saying, if Drummond ends up being the next Dwight Howard, I'll join you in a mass sucide ritual. But it is what it is, and we have Robinson. As I said earlier, if we had taken Barnes, or Lillard (who we didn't really have a need for), I would have been OK with those choices. But I was a little higher on Barnes than others were. So lets just hope that Robinson ends up being a good player in some capacity, either at PF or SF or perhaps a little bit of both.

You should know better than draft by need ! Draft the best player period!

 

[Gilles]

I'll finish my thoughts on this by saying, if Drummond ends up being the next Dwight Howard, I'll join you in a mass sucide ritual. But it is what it is, and we have Robinson. As I said earlier, if we had taken Barnes, or Lillard (who we didn't really have a need for), I would have been OK with those choices. But I was a little higher on Barnes than others were. So lets just hope that Robinson ends up being a good player in some capacity, either at PF or SF or perhaps a little bit of both.

Will it be rude to leave you there alone?
Speaking of Robinson, people need to remember 2 facts:
1. He's very athletic overall, has superb motor and good raw offensive skill (good handle for PF and shooting form, decent touch and passing).
2. He's a very hard worker so whatever potential he has he's going to realise it.

 

[Bricklayer]

Just to reset this, its preseason, but:

Drummond 5gms 17.8min 10.2pts (.649 .273) 5.6reb 0.4ast 1.0stl 1.8blk 0.4TO

that's a per 36 of roughly 20.5pts 11.0rebs 2.0stl 3.6blk on .650 shooting.

Its preseason. Yes yes. But its a damn impressive preseason. And we had the guy in the arena, worked him out, he was there to draft, and we passed on him. That's what makes this tough. Its not pie in the sky.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

Just to reset this, its preseason, but:

Drummond 5gms 17.8min 10.2pts (.649 .273) 5.6reb 0.4ast 1.0stl 1.8blk 0.4TO

that's a per 36 of roughly 20.5pts 11.0rebs 2.0stl 3.6blk on .650 shooting.

Its preseason. Yes yes. But its a damn impressive preseason. And we had the guy in the arena, worked him out, he was there to draft, and we passed on him. That's what makes this tough. Its not pie in the sky.

if trob wasn't available, do you think we would have picked drummond?

 

[bajaden]

You should know better than draft by need ! Draft the best player period!

I was suggesting that the Kings probably didn't consider Lillard because of little need in that area. I, on the other hand will always draft the best player available, which at five, I was somewhat torn between several players. You should know me better by now!

 

[bajaden]

if trob wasn't available, do you think we would have picked drummond?

According to the rumors I heard, Petrie is reported to have said that if Robinson wasn't available at 5, then he was going to trade down. Susposedly, he had a deal on the table with Houston who desperately wanted the 5th pick because of thier quest for Howard. If true, then that means Petrie would have passed on MKG as well. I find that hard to believe, but we'll never know for sure.

 

[bajaden]

Just to reset this, its preseason, but:

Drummond 5gms 17.8min 10.2pts (.649 .273) 5.6reb 0.4ast 1.0stl 1.8blk 0.4TO

that's a per 36 of roughly 20.5pts 11.0rebs 2.0stl 3.6blk on .650 shooting.

Its preseason. Yes yes. But its a damn impressive preseason. And we had the guy in the arena, worked him out, he was there to draft, and we passed on him. That's what makes this tough. Its not pie in the sky.

Lets watch him play half a season before deciding if he's pie in the sky or not. As I've said, his problem has never been whether he put up numbers or not, the question is, will he do it night in and night out. So far, through highschool and one year of college he hasn't. Not a lifetime indictment, but he still has to prove he can do it.

 

[upinsmoke]

According to the rumors I heard, Petrie is reported to have said that if Robinson wasn't available at 5, then he was going to trade down. Susposedly, he had a deal on the table with Houston who desperately wanted the 5th pick because of thier quest for Howard. If true, then that means Petrie would have passed on MKG as well. I find that hard to believe, but we'll never know for sure.

I still daydream about a Evans/Lowry backcourt.

 

[Sac.Kings]

I still daydream about a Evans/Lowry backcourt.

After seeing Drummond in action, I daydream about a Cousins/Drummond frontcourt we could have had.... right there for the taking.

 

[Mojo]

According to the rumors I heard, Petrie is reported to have said that if Robinson wasn't available at 5, then he was going to trade down. Susposedly, he had a deal on the table with Houston who desperately wanted the 5th pick because of thier quest for Howard. If true, then that means Petrie would have passed on MKG as well. I find that hard to believe, but we'll never know for sure.

Agreed, I couldn't see him passing on him. Maybe he was just assuming that MKG would already be off the board?

 

[The_Jamal]

I wonder what would happen to this forum if Trob somehow miraculously outperforms Drummond.

 

[bajaden]

I wonder what would happen to this forum if Trob somehow miraculously outperforms Drummond.

I can only speak for myself. But I wouldn't be surprised, and I would be happy!