Maybe we should stir it up...

[JJ22L]

As for your Peja on Lewis comment- Peja did do a good job on him, i admit it...my beef is not that Peja is a bad defender, the team in general just isnt good at all, making peja look better, thusly making him one of the primary options on defense. I remember Lewis had a 9 pt game in there and i dont recall him rebounding the ball well. But i was never to high on Lewis anyways, webb got schisted out of the all star game undeservedly by him, webb had like 3 triple doubles in 5 games when the voting took place, i couldnt believe it.


Edit: I dont get the kings on TV down in so cal where i go to college but im assuming bonzi guarded allen this year..if not feel free to correct me - here are his stats vs us. Still not palpable AT ALL..but better then last year.

28 Pts 7assist 4 boards
24 Pts 5assists 1 boards

In the second game bonzi got the best with 31 pts 8 boards

 

[AleksandarN]

And for the record...Allens production last year vs us in the playoffs....just an example of why saying Peja is the best defender on the kings is irrelevant.

Game 1: 28 Pts 10 Rebs, 3 Assists
Game 2: 26 Pts 2 Rebs, 6 Assists
Game 3: 33 Pts 5 Rebs, 5 Assists
Game 4:45 Pts 4 Rebs, 6 Assists
Game 5: 30 Pts 2 Rebs, 6 Assists

Let me ask you this. Did you watch the playoffs last year? I will ask you another question. Who guarded Allen last year? I will give you hint his initials are not P.S.

 

[JJ22L]

Let me ask you this. Did you watch the playoffs last year? I will ask you another question. Who guarded Allen last year? I will give you hint his initials are not P.S.

I'm not implying that he did, im providing a group of games, not just one, so there is no fluke showing simply that the kings suck at defense and saying Peja is the best defender on the team is a futile statement.

But ya know what, forget it im completely wrong..peja is an amazing defender and we should keep him just for his defensive expertise.

 

[AleksandarN]

I'm not implying that he did, im showing the kings suck at defense and saying Peja is the best defender on the team is a futile statement.

Forget it im completely wrong..peja is an amazing defender and we should keep him just for his defensive expertise.

No but trading your only player who plays defense will not help you become a better team defensively. If we do trade him I hope we get something back that is similar talent wise. We need changes on this team and just trading one part of the core is not getting it done. Like I said earlier in a different thread we need to change our core. We play no defense and do not rebound the ball.

No defense and rebounds= a losing record.

BTW nice sarcasm I like how it makes your point come across more clearly.

 

[JJ22L]

Exactly- the core needs to be changed, i dont necessarily think we need to trade all of our current core, but with the build we have now things simply wont work. You can find a good man on man defender if you just find a player that puts out effort though, its not an incredibly difficult task to accomplish its just that with the team we have assembled we are comprised of offensive weapons, and with our system its just not working.

Ah i see you edited your post to highlight my last comment, lol yea that was sarcasm, nothing to take literally, a bit out of the heat of the moment.

 

[Venom]

It just pisses me off that people pick on Peja's defence when we have much worse defender at other positions on the floor. If everyone was as good a defender as Peja on this team, we wouldn't suck on defence as much. We wouldn't be Detroit but we would be respectable defensvely.

For starters Bibby and Miller can't defend the side of the barn

Oh, we'd still suck. Please believe that. Peja face-guards his man all night, never knows where the ball is, never helps, and never rebounds. Five guys doing that would equal an extremely bad defense.

If the Kings rotated better then Bibby getting beat to the lane wouldn't matter as much. Of course, Bibby is too lazy to rotate as well. In the old days we could cover for Bibby and Peja because Webber and Vlade were so savvy, and Christie drew all the tough assignments from the 1-3 spot, baring a heinous matchup. Now, Peja and Bibby are on an island, and they've been exposed.

I'll draw a parallel to football. Ever seen what happens to a team's cornerbacks when they lose a premiere safety? They get beat like a drum, and everyone squawks about how they suck. Well, they always sucked, they just had Woodson, Lott, Sharper back there erasing mistakes.

 

[Bricklayer]

People continue to be confused by Peja's defense.

1) Peja's man defense is NOT bad. He stays in front of his guy about as well as you could hope for a player of his "athletic" ability. While many great players and some not so great ones can and will still go off on him, I do not expect them to suddenly have a big game just because Peja is guarding him. His man defense is not a major liability.

2) It is Peja's HELP defense and heart that suck. And rebounding. And a few other things. All of which means that if you trade Peja there are many MANY guys you can replace him with who's OVERALL defensive impact would be much more positive than Peja's.


On the main issue BTW -- from the little I've seen of KT at SF this year, that's not the answer. Sounded intriguing in the offseason. Has looked quite bad in reality thus far.

 

[DocHolliday]

Why would you put Reef at Shooting forward. If you were to put anyone at SFit would be Kenny Thomas. A guy that doesn't have a huge low post game. But, neither of them are really SF.

 

[vj9999]

Here is my (un)educated take on the situation. I am all for trying whatever could work. If it takes experimenting with different lineups for few games, than be it. Something has to be done.

AS for Peja, I am past the point where any criticisim/defending bothers me. Peja is this years Chris Webber, but even with that said he is getting off much easier than Chris ever did. If we had a losing record last year with Webber in the lineup, I can't even imagine how out of hand bashing would get.

As a fan/media it is always easiest to blame one person and this year it just happens to be Predrag. Are the Kings better off with out him?! Maybe. It wil not take trading one person to make all our problems go away.

Kings were here well before Chris, Vlade, Peja, Doug, Bobby, Bibby and will be here (hopefully) will after they are all gone.

 

[Sacto=Slappo]

If we trade Peja, the lineup should be as follows:

C-Miller
PF-Reef
SF-Thomas(depending on who we get for Peja)
SG-Bonzi
PG-Bibby

Hey, here's a novel idea: Start Thomas at the SF so he can utilize his abilities that better serve his height and allow him to use his quickness on the boards and get more involved defensively. He's too damn undersized to play PF, but great size to play SF.

I agree...if anything Reef should be PF and KT @ SF...if the situation were to play out that way

 

[playmaker0017]

Reef has the highest shooting percentage in the NBA. I'm thinking he could be a SF.

His shooting percentage is so high because he shoot a large volume of shots from 8 feet in.

Shaq shoots a high percentage too - and he also should not be a SF.

With Bibby, Bonzi, and Reef being consistent, we cannot give Peja 17 shots per game.

Bibby has been anything but consistent. I guess the same really applies to Bonzi's offense too.

Bonzi should be getting GARBAGE points rather than being a prime option on offense.

Especially since he hasn't shot well all season long as a starter.

I guess everyone forgets when he caught fire before the injury. He was everyone's favorite.

 

[playmaker0017]

I think we either wait for Peja to return to all star status (which may never happen), or we try to mix things up a bit.

Peja was never a real all-star player. He was a great option in an offensive system that got him open looks. He's a dead eye sniper.

Once people realize this is what he is ... and quit trying to make him something he's not, is the sooner we can move on.

Peja is a guy that feeds on the talent around him. He's a supporter. Peja had his best games, before he was injured, when Reef was getting the ball a lot in the high key and working off of Reef. Defenders had to contain Reef AND stop Peja ... on the same side. It was tough. Peja got a LOT of open looks.

He can't create. He can't get space. You have to work to GET him open. But once he is ... he's nasty.

Now, that may not be what we need, but I just think people are expecting too much out of Peja for what he is. I mean, the reason Peja isn't "clutch", doesn't shoot well in the 4th and doesn't have great playoff series is because people actually play TIGHT defense in those situations. It's even tougher to get space and an open look.

 

[CaminoChaos]

I personally think that if KT got more playing time he could adapt to playing SF. I think given the chance he would do OK defending SF's. He is athletic and quick. I believe his rebounding would help us more than Peja's defense.

On the other hand the thing that would kill us is the perimeter offense. Peja spreads the offense so much. He has the ability to step 4 or 5 feet back from the 3 point line and hit a shot. I think that is the only disadvantage we would face with KT in the line up. But you have to consider KT will give about 3 offensive rebounds per game. That would take 3 possetions away from the opposition and 6 potential points.

 

[playmaker0017]

HA- who the %#$$ else would we throw at Redd, Lewis, Allen, LBJ..

Actually, Reef defended those players while in Portland and was serviceable. He wasn't great, but he held his own.

maybe bonzi now i guess..but yea..when your full of a team of non defenders .

Bonzi has NOT been a good defender this year. I know everyone here wants to attribute GOD status to the guy, but he's been less than stellar defensively.

Despite his great rebounding numbers, his man is still beating us when all things are factored up.

 

[playmaker0017]

Peja is proabably our best defender from our starters yet he is the one that cops a lot of the blame for his defence.

Not our best, but near the top of the heap. Here is the evidence to support your claim, since people don't seem to want to accept it.

Effective Defensive FG % / (PER48 PTS GIVEN UP) / PER48 SHOTS TAKEN:
Reef (PF) - 44% / (17.3) / 15.7
Peja (SF) - 50% / (19.9) / 17.5
Bonzi (SG) - 53% / (24.7) / 19.2
Bibby (PG) - 53% / (20.4) / 16.2
Miller (C) - 59% / (21.6) / 14.9

What these numbers say to me is that Bonzi is going up against one of the most utilized positions in the NBA in the SG. SGs take a high volume of shots, and this is helping lead to the PER48 PPG he's allowing ... but the FG% he's allowing is pretty bad. It is also showing that Brad Miller is getting dominated in all respects defensively. Reef is leading the way for us defensively.

Also, just for comparisons sake, since people are talking about Reef at SF I took last year's numbers in Portland where Reef played significant minutes at SF...

Reef (SF) - 52% / (21.1) / 17.5

Serviceable, but not as good as Peja is doing out there.

 

[Bricklayer]

Why would you put Reef at Shooting forward.

So we could put Thomas at Rebounding Forward.

Besides which, Reef has actually spent 2/3 of his career at SF with that post game. Its like Corliss.

KTs size and simple jumper/drive offensive game would seem to lend itself to SF a little bit, but what I've noticed is that its kind of like Peja -- if you want to stop KT exactly what you do is guard him with a smaller player -- in Kts case a SF. His whole offensive game is predicated on having a quickness advanatage on his opponent, thus forcing the bigger slower guy to either back off and give him the jumper or not back off and crowd and let KT easily drive past him. But SFs are able to crowd him and stay right with him on the drive, and then Kenny's pretty much out of answers. Open jumper or drive is kind of the extent of KTs game. Not much post game even against a smaller player.

 

[playmaker0017]

So we could put Thomas at Rebounding Forward.

To add to this - it's just a title.

You could call KT a PG if you wanted ... it's how they decide to play the matchups.

With players that can play multiple positions effectively like Duncan, Thomas, Garnett, Reef (not that Reef and Thomas are on the other guy's levels) ... it allows you to be creative when determining matchups and how to play out the game.

On offense Reef can stay in the post and Thomas/Miller can run the high post. On defense you put Thomas or Reef on the SF or PF depending on the matchup.

OR ...

You play a zone.

Either way, there are ways to effectively work that lineup.

 

[BawLa]

To add to this - it's just a title.

You could call KT a PG if you wanted ... it's how they decide to play the matchups.

With players that can play multiple positions effectively like Duncan, Thomas, Garnett, Reef (not that Reef and Thomas are on the other guy's levels) ... it allows you to be creative when determining matchups and how to play out the game.

On offense Reef can stay in the post and Thomas/Miller can run the high post. On defense you put Thomas or Reef on the SF or PF depending on the matchup.

OR ...

You play a zone.

Either way, there are ways to effectively work that lineup.

Thank you.

You took the words out of my head. I think KT brings good energy when on the floor for more than bench minutes. His activity on the boards is something that we need more of. Having KT and Reef as forwards can create mismatches on both the offensive and defensive ends. Some of the mismatches may not work in our favor, but it seems like we already have that problem.

Great players that hit big shots are going to do so no matter who is in front of them. We haven't been a good defensive team as far as I can remember. The reason why I proposed this idea was because Peja's offensive inefficiency in his contract year is killing our team. When he's not scoring he doesn't make up for it by grabbing boards or blocking shots. Since we haven't made any trades recently, we need to use what we got to turn things around. Again, I'm not saying KT is our savior, but his energy as a starter is something we should not ignore.

I'm kinda being sarcastic here but maybe Peja should come off the bench, when the other teams are tired or have scrubs in. Then he could shoot the lights out against weaker opponents, and have the energy to grab boards, etc.

 

[Burrito06]

You are the first one that slipped a "%#$$" in there

Ok so how man inches does he give up against Allen and Redd?????? Why wasn't he given a job on them??????

You say its a fact, I would like it if you could actually prove that fact with some stats or data or circumstances that back up your facts. The thing is you can't because its not a fact. Its a myth.

Peja is proabably our best defender from our starters yet he is the one that cops a lot of the blame for his defence.

Bonzi was the one guarding Allen and Redd. Peja would have gotten man handeled worse then Bonzi did against Ray Ray.

 

[playmaker0017]

A lot of these concerns would really be moot if we had a stud backline center defender.

If you have a solid interior defender that challenges the majority of shots that come into the lane - you could pretty much put Peja on AI and it would have about the same outcome.

This is where that whole notion of team defense comes into play.

 

[ParniValjak]

Bonzi was the one guarding Allen and Redd. Peja would have gotten man handeled worse then Bonzi did against Ray Ray.

fI watched those games and still have them on my PC.

Bonzi started of guarding Allen and Peja was switched on him in the second half after he kept Lewis right out of the game.

As for the game against the Bucks, I think you need to take a better look. Peja was guarding Redd for 90% of the game.

 

[Bonzinator]

If Petrie did that i would personally drive to wherever he happens to be at the time i hear of this going down...and slap him in the face. He better NOT settle with trading peja for "decent" bench players *COUGH WHAT HE DID WITH WEBBER AND EVERYONE INCLUDING ME IS STILL HAVING ISSUES WITH IT COUGH COUGH*. Should get some cough drops for that one...it was a pretty long one.

if we get bench players they would be much better then decent. well i hope so

 

[JJ22L]

Agreed Bonz.

The way i figure it. Its not disputed Peja had trade value the year webber was out, and even last year, and some including me would argue he still does this year in the eyes of a GM that needs what peja brings (i.e. Heat with Shaq drawing so much in the paint kicking it out to peja would be a nice little punch, suggestions on this could go on and on so i differ). And he simply didn't pull the trigger when he should have (should have is my opinion dont take it as a universal truth). Thusly if he FINALLY does pull the trigger on his little boy this year, when his value is the lowest, it better not be something short of spectacular. He waited SO long to trade peja, when the potential for actually bringing in a superstar for him has passed, well at least in my opinion it has, and he brings in scrubs for him now, if i were the Maloofs i would have a fit. To sum it up, if he gets NOTHING for Peja now, when he could have gotten a superstar for him in the past, and im sure he knows that, its gonna hit the fan, and hard with alot of the fans.

 

[funkykingston]

Having KT and Reef as forwards can create mismatches on both the offensive and defensive ends. Some of the mismatches may not work in our favor, but it seems like we already have that problem.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating: Starting SAR and KT would be a disaster, at least on this team. Perhaps if the Kings had Ray Allen or Michael Redd starting at the off guard it would work. But with Bonzi Wells? Nope.

A lineup of Bibby, Bonzi, Abdur-Rahim, Thomas and Miller would leave only Mike as an outside threat. The spacing would be non-existent. Not only could you not run the Princeton offense, I can't think of ANY offense you could run with that lineup.

Brad is a jumpshooter and can hit the three, but that isn't his comfort zone. He isn't Rasheed Wallace and can't camp out beyond the arc. He needs to spend most of his time 16 feet or so from the basket.

Bonzi's strength is the post up and SAR and Kenny both operate from about 16 feet in as well.

If I ever saw the Kings with that lineup, I'd run a 2-3 zone packed in fairly tight and only close out hard on Bibby.

And that's to say nothing about forcing Kenny or Reef to chase around Paul Pierce, Richard Jefferson, Quentin Richardson, Andre Iguodala, LeBron James, Tayshaun Prince, Ron Artest, Bobby Simmons, Gerald Wallace, Josh Howard, T-Mac, Desmond Mason, Carmelo Anthony, Wally Szczerbiak, Rashard Lewis, Andrei Kirilenko, or Corey Maggette.

Think the Kings defense is bad now? Imagine Kenny Thomas guarding the guys on the list above. Or maybe Shareef could do a better job, meaning Kenny Thomas has to guard Nowitzki, Duncan, Garnett, Amare etc.

This Kings team needs a shakeup. But starting Bonzi, Reef and Kenny isn't the answer.

 

[Treja]

I voted no, i think that we should put Kenny at SF and have SAR play at the PF he has been puting them in the hoop from there and i dont want that to change, we should try and help our bench by trading Peja if we do...

 

[Bricklayer]

A lineup of Bibby, Bonzi, Abdur-Rahim, Thomas and Miller would leave only Mike as an outside threat. The spacing would be non-existent. Not only could you not run the Princeton offense, I can't think of ANY offense you could run with that lineup.

Well, I still don't think I actually buy that -- its still 1 outside shooter, 2 midrange shooters (ironically our bigs), 2 post guys. Not like we've gotten any shooting out of any of the SFs we've tried other than Peja anyway. I mean, how much worse would we be than a team like Denver? Don't think it would work for other reasons, but considering the outide oriented games of our bigs in those circumstances the whole "we need to have a super duper three point shooter at SF" thing isn't one of them.

 

[BawLa]

I've said this before, but it bears repeating: Starting SAR and KT would be a disaster, at least on this team. Perhaps if the Kings had Ray Allen or Michael Redd starting at the off guard it would work. But with Bonzi Wells? Nope.

A lineup of Bibby, Bonzi, Abdur-Rahim, Thomas and Miller would leave only Mike as an outside threat. The spacing would be non-existent. Not only could you not run the Princeton offense, I can't think of ANY offense you could run with that lineup.

Brad is a jumpshooter and can hit the three, but that isn't his comfort zone. He isn't Rasheed Wallace and can't camp out beyond the arc. He needs to spend most of his time 16 feet or so from the basket.

Bonzi's strength is the post up and SAR and Kenny both operate from about 16 feet in as well.

If I ever saw the Kings with that lineup, I'd run a 2-3 zone packed in fairly tight and only close out hard on Bibby.

And that's to say nothing about forcing Kenny or Reef to chase around Paul Pierce, Richard Jefferson, Quentin Richardson, Andre Iguodala, LeBron James, Tayshaun Prince, Ron Artest, Bobby Simmons, Gerald Wallace, Josh Howard, T-Mac, Desmond Mason, Carmelo Anthony, Wally Szczerbiak, Rashard Lewis, Andrei Kirilenko, or Corey Maggette.

Think the Kings defense is bad now? Imagine Kenny Thomas guarding the guys on the list above. Or maybe Shareef could do a better job, meaning Kenny Thomas has to guard Nowitzki, Duncan, Garnett, Amare etc.

This Kings team needs a shakeup. But starting Bonzi, Reef and Kenny isn't the answer.

Wow. Great points, great analysis.

I don't have much to say to that but I'll try. It is obvious without Peja starting you would need some outside shooting. Bonzi has little outside threat abilities and unless Price, Martin, and/or Garcia come around quickly then we would have a very limited perimeter threat. But Peja has been slumping so how is it any different? Peja requires too much assistance to be a solid threat anymore. It seems like that Peja for Artest trade comes in handy here, but lets not start that engine. I think if we continue slumping the way we have been, then we need to consider letting some of our younger ones to develop, and couple that with some necessary trades.

As for what you said, I'm sure we could find offensive production with two power forwards and a point center. If you move Bonzi to the bench and have Martin start then you have a little more of a perimeter threat. Then Bonzi comes in like Bobby used to, that is, if he is willing to fill that role. On defense you are in a pickle but again, it is no different than now. You would have some good activity on the boards however.

So I ask, what do you think of this?

Bibby, Martin, KT, SAR, Brad - Starting
Price, Bonzi, Garcia, Corliss, Skinner - Bench

Then your starters would be efficient offensively with good rebounding and your bench would have decent offense with decent defense. I know its not perfect but it is working with what we got, minus Peja. (Sorry Peja, I love you, but you've been pissing me off)

 

[LPKingsFan]

Bonzi won't take kindly to that, nor should he. He should be starting over KT anyway. And I think Garcia is a better shooter than Martin, so why not do that switch?

 

[VF21]

What, pray tell, evidence do you have to support your ongoing assertions that Garcia is, in fact, better at ANYTHING than Martin? Sorry, but to state that Garcia is a better shooter than Martin just isn't being proven, at least not yet.

 

[LPKingsFan]

What, pray tell, evidence do you have to support your ongoing assertions that Garcia is, in fact, better at ANYTHING than Martin? Sorry, but to state that Garcia is a better shooter than Martin just isn't being proven, at least not yet.

Ongoing assertions? I think you may have me mistaken for another poster here who may have been involved with the Martin/Garcia wars which I want no part in, thank you very much.

I just view Garcia as more of a shooter/ballhandler and Martin as a slasher/scorer, that's all. But I guess that's more of eventual roles with the team, a few years down the road, perhaps.