Martin plays best when RonRon is out!!?? (merged)

[CruzDude]

A quote from the Bee article on the Pacer game:

Interestingly, Martin's top-three scoring games of the season have come when Artest was out.

"He's learning you have to stick with it and keep going," Miller said. "You're not going to make a lot of your shots. Mr. 50 percent this year thinks he's the top dog, but he's going to have nights where he doesn't shoot that well."

Bibby kept the Kings going early, scoring 11 of his 28 points in the first quarter as the Kings trailed 27-24. He finished 10 for 17 from the field while the Kings had 25 assists.

"Our ballclub moved the ball (Sunday night)," Musselman said. "There were a lot of possessions where we were shooting the ball under six seconds because we were so unselfish. We were proud of the way the basketball moved (Sunday night)."

Amazing game, played the way Coach wanted. My guess being thats one of the few times this year. And RonRon was out. Hmmmmm Guess RonRon should stop trying to take over games and let the games flow to him and let Bibbs and Kevin lead the scoring show.

 

[piksi]

not again

 

[diggining]

Offensively, Ron Artest would make a decent 2nd option and a very good 3rd option in the NBA. Unfortunately, he has the mentality that he should be the first option, and he does that to the detriment of the team. Kevin Martin's the opposite; he's one of the rare NBA players who is both an excellent shooter and an excellent scorer (though he's more scorer than shooter). He has the skills to be the first option without much of a drop in efficiency (look at how he's done with increased minutes and shots, and look at how he's able to get to the line even when he has a bad shooting day), but he doesn't have the mentality of a No. 1 option yet--I suspect though that it has to do with the fact that there are two players much more senior than him on the NBA social scale.

Some of the Pacers fan I hear were not happy that Artest didn't play; they felt that Kevin Martin wouldn't have gone off for 30+ if he were on the court.

With Artest, you just have to take the good with the bad. As long as he stays in check off-court, I think the good outweighs the bad most of the time. He's still very good, but is no longer the elite defender he used to be though--and that's a little worrisome to me.

 

[Merdiesel]

Too many times Artest tries to be the hero. Last night is the way the Kings should play every night. I really hope some how Muss can get Atest to work with that style of play.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Too many times Artest tries to be the hero. Last night is the way the Kings should play every night. I really hope some how Muss can get Atest to work with that style of play.

not gonna happen...not in my lifetime or yours. I'm starting, somehow, to get the feeling that Ron wont be here next year. Who knows...

 

[KingFred4]

All I know is that for the past couple months Ron has been our best player. He's our most consistent scorer, can score inside and out, almost ALWAYS creates match-up problems for the other team and he plays hard every second he's on the floor.

I don't mean to deify him in any way but it would be unfair to to overly criticize the one player who, on a nite-in nite-out basis, does everything he knows to help his team win.

Not to mention he's doing it without causing all of the problems he's been known to. IMHO Artest's market value is the highest now than it's almost ever been. Which bodes well if and when a better fit comes along for this team.

 

[VF21]

I don't think it has anything to do with Ron. I think it has to do with Musselman pulling Martin at the first sign of an off night and not letting him work through it...

With Artest out, Musselman had to take one of his favorite bench guys (Salmons) and start him, leaving him with one less person to sub in for Kevin.

 

[Kingster]

All I know is that for the past couple months Ron has been our best player. He's our most consistent scorer, can score inside and out, almost ALWAYS creates match-up problems for the other team and he plays hard every second he's on the floor.

I don't mean to deify him in any way but it would be unfair to to overly criticize the one player who, on a nite-in nite-out basis, does everything he knows to help his team win.

Not to mention he's doing it without causing all of the problems he's been known to. IMHO Artest's market value is the highest now than it's almost ever been. Which bodes well if and when a better fit comes along for this team.

If Artest has the ball in his hands at the end of close games, and we end up losing most close games, then how much blame should he have? I think Muss might have made a no-win implicit deal with Artest. Artest gets the ball at the end of games. Muss gets a strong personality who isn't going to be a locker room problem-child. But Muss suffers the consequences anyway. At end of games, the ball doesn't move, Martin doesn't see it like he would otherwise. Kings lose.

 

[CruzDude]

A telling stat in all this I heard from the Pacers radio announcers (on Sirius satellite radio) about the Kings:

they are 0-5 in overtime games

they are 1-11 in games decided by 5 pts or less

In other words Kings, and Artest in particular who tries to take charge at end of games, don't finish close games. Period.

I disagree with VF21 on this. The coach has to "coach" and tell the players what he wants and expects from them. He has to set up the end-of-games stragegy. He has to tell RonRon to be the #2 or #3 guy scoring wise but be the #1 guy to defend, rebound and get put-backs, IMHO.

 

[Cal-Kings]

I don't think it has anything to do with Ron. I think it has to do with Musselman pulling Martin at the first sign of an off night and not letting him work through it...

With Artest out, Musselman had to take one of his favorite bench guys (Salmons) and start him, leaving him with one less person to sub in for Kevin.

Exactly right. If Muss had let Kevin "work it out" in New Jersey we could have won that game. His hook is way too early on Kevin.

And if Kevin plays so much better when Artest it out, how come he's had his best games with Artest playing? Did the writer ever think of that?!?

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

I think that a huge part of why we dont win more games, has not as much to do with 'why we lose more with Ron taking over games', but 'why we lose because of an obvious lack of size and rebounding', more than anything else.

 

[tyrant]

true. we have the worst front court in the league

 

[VF21]

A telling stat in all this I heard from the Pacers radio announcers (on Sirius satellite radio) about the Kings:

they are 0-5 in overtime games

they are 1-11 in games decided by 5 pts or less

In other words Kings,and Artest in particular who tries to take charge at end of games, don't finish close games. Period.

I disagree with Brick on this. The coach has to "coach" and tell the players what he wants and expects from them. He has to set up the end-of-games stragegy. He has to tell RonRon to be the #2 or #3 guy scoring wise but be the #1 guy to defend, rebound and get put-backs, IMHO.

There's no way you can derive that statement from the two statements above it, especially if you're trying for whatever reason to make it appear as though Artest is the reason we're losing close games. Hell, Artest has been the reason more than once we've even been anything approaching close at the end.

I simply refuse to continue to buy into the apparent theory by some that in order to praise one of our players we have to find someone else at whom to point a finger of blame.

We play a different style of basketball when Artest is on the court. Last night we saw glimpses of the old "run and gun" and we loved it, partially because it brought back some old feelings AND we won. But that doesn't make the team that played last night a winning combination. It makes them a team that was missing a key part and managed, partially because of the opponent, to get a win anyway... And that's pretty much all it means.

 

[SacKings384]

In other news... The Lakers waived Kobe Bryant because of conduct detrimental to the team and holding his teammates back. When asked for comment Mitch Kupchak had this to say

"Lamar puts up his best numbers when Kobe is out. His average is substantially higher when Kobe is not playing"

 

[Kingster]

There's no way you can derive that statement from the two statements above it, especially if you're trying for whatever reason to make it appear as though Artest is the reason we're losing close games. Hell, Artest has been the reason more than once we've even been anything approaching close at the end.

I simply refuse to continue to buy into the apparent theory by some that in order to praise one of our players we have to find someone else at whom to point a finger of blame.

We play a different style of basketball when Artest is on the court. Last night we saw glimpses of the old "run and gun" and we loved it, partially because it brought back some old feelings AND we won. But that doesn't make the team that played last night a winning combination. It makes them a team that was missing a key part and managed, partially because of the opponent, to get a win anyway... And that's pretty much all it means.

I think you are right and the opposing argument is right -- Artest is the reason we are close at the end of games and Artest is a big reason why we're losing the close games.

 

[VF21]

Ah, and there's the conundrum... an enigma disguised as a paradox, etc.

This team just isn't right. The pieces individually could all be wonderful but, when put together, the big picture just won't come into focus.

 

[Entity]

i would imagine that any time 1 or the top 3 scorers for any team is out the other 2 step up and score more in that game. Its not a eye raising incident to me its what should happen. The game Kevin missed Sar and KT had 15 apiece and Miller had 19 and KT had 15 reb. So going by some of the thinking around here we have a better frountcourt with Kev out. Its all common sense if someone is out the rest need to do more.

 

[Kev.in]

In other words Kings, and Artest in particular who tries to take charge at end of games, don't finish close games. Period.

I think point guard play and the ability to get stops and defensive rebounds are bigger factors. So when you see that record in the close games and see that this is the worst rebounding team we've had in a long time and this has been Bibby's worst season by far, you see the difference between this season and seasons past.

 

[Bricklayer]

Surely at this point there is not a person who's been on this board for more than a year or two who can't see the glaringly obvious similarities to the Webb holding back Peja debates of years past.

 

[acisking]

Surely at this point there is not a person who's been on this board for more than a year or two who can't see the glaringly obvious similarities to the Webb holding back Peja debates of years past.

I was thinking the exact same thing...the irony of it is, both Peja and Webb are gone...and the same accusations prevail. Human nature perhaps...but hard to say its sensible.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

Surely at this point there is not a person who's been on this board for more than a year or two who can't see the glaringly obvious similarities to the Webb holding back Peja debates of years past.

Ron =/= Webber (Making teammates better, anyways)

I'd say that it'd be more appropriate if people were saying Miller is holding Kevin back.

 

[6th]

I don't think anyone is holding Kevin back, unless it is Musselman for his quick hook.

I wonder about Ron's good games only to see the team lose, though. Do other players stop giving as much effort when Ron has a good game? Do they just stand back out of the way expecting Ron to control the ball?

I do not think that Ron looks to make others better. I have said, more than once, that Ron should not try to play hero/savior. It usually does not work because he forces too many shots when he tries to do that. I believe that Ron is a good player, but not necessarily a good team player.

 

[acisking]

I don't think anyone is holding Kevin back, unless it is Musselman for his quick hook.

I wonder about Ron's good games only to see the team lose, though. Do other players stop giving as much effort when Ron has a good game? Do they just stand back out of the way expecting Ron to control the ball?

I do not think that Ron looks to make others better. I have said, more than once, that Ron should not try to play hero/savior. It usually does not work because he forces too many shots when he tries to do that. I believe that Ron is a good player, but not necessarily a good team player.

Yea...and moreover, he doesn't play within the flow of the offense.

 

[CruzDude]

My original point was that the Kings seemed to play more as a team when RonRon was out and the fact that he has tried to take over on late going the past month or so. That combined with Kings being 0-5 in overtime and 1-11 in games decided by 5 pts or less shows that they do not finish games well. If RonRon has been trying to be the go-to guy and we have those kinds of end game stats that something is not working. One game without RonRon that the Kings win does not make any major point. Only the obvious observation.

Kevin has probably played double the minutes so far this year compared to last year and gets tired after several back-to-backs as evidenced by all his missed shots being short. But so does everyone playing those type minutes for the first time. Still he manages 23 points dead tired.

As many others pointed out, RonRon being out won't help us in the big picture. We need rebounding, defensive stops in the middle and some athleticism near the basket.

 

[Bibbilicious]

Are the kings more confortable without artest?

I dont know, these two recent games where Artest is out the kings seem to play alot better. Granted, both nights bibby and martin had monster games. But still, it might have been the lack of his one on one at times. Hes trying to get into the passing game a bit more, but were still getting glimpses of the do it all style from him. to me the kings just looked a little more confortable on the floor. Could have been my imagination, I mean it was Charlette Not exactly the hardest team in the world to beat.

 

[VF21]

http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18111

 

[Bibbilicious]

Yeah, im not saying that were best without Ron, hes a major part of our team. but even though he really has brought us back into alot of games, you have to admit that he does try to play hero just a bit too much.

 

[VF21]

My point was this is already being discussed. For that reason I'm going to merge the threads.

 

[Bricklayer]

I dont know, these two recent games where Artest is out the kings seem to play alot better. Granted, both nights bibby and martin had monster games. But still, it might have been the lack of his one on one at times. Hes trying to get into the passing game a bit more, but were still getting glimpses of the do it all style from him. to me the kings just looked a little more confortable on the floor. Could have been my imagination, I mean it was Charlette Not exactly the hardest team in the world to beat.

Two names: Mike Dunleavy, Matt Carroll.


More controlled evidence needed.