Maloof on KHTK

[shaka zulu]

You need some Energy and Defensive stops in 2002-2003, You put in a shot blocker in keon clark, You put in a Slim and Trim Good post Defensive player in Chris Webber, You have all Defense Doug christie at the # 2 spot, You have a young quick Bobby jackson at the # 1 spot you put a Good team Defender in jim jackso, Peja Gerald Wallace or Hedo, You right now at this time have a Good Defensive Team on the floor.


You want to slow the game down a Control Tempo, Spread the floor and Run some clock and Get good high percentage get back on D shots. You have Webber and Vlade up front, Two players that can pasas the ball with the best of them, they can Draw double coverage, They are Decent foul shooters and they take good Shots, You have mike Bibby and jim jackson spreading the floor, you have peje or Hedo spreading the floor even more, You have a Team that can Run some clock and Control Tempo with smart play and high percenatge thing happen.


You had a perfect Balance with this team 2002-2003

 

[Bricklayer]

Adelman stated that you need defensive players to be a defensive team. However, that contradicts the fact that we were statistically the best defensive team in 01-02 with a team that comprised of Vlade, Webber, Peja, Christie and Mike. Not exactly defensive stalwarts. Christie was the only good defender on that team, yet we were considered a great offensive & defensive team that year. They played great team defense that year and after that it was gone.

I've heard all the interviews now, and I believe that Adelman's was the most candid and informative, but I fail to see the logic behind needing defensive players to be a good defensive team, when 01-02 season is evidence enough that it can be done.

When Artest came in, he made a huge defensive impact, and by that I mean, by him playing that relentless defense that he does and basically working his tail off on the defensive end, it seemed to kick everybody else in butt to do the same and it worked. I guess what i'm trying to say is, is that you need to want to play defense in order be a good defensive team, and Pre- Artest that wasn't happening. Adelman may have stressed defense, but the players just weren't listening.

Um, that era is the time that actually PROVES Rick's point.

in 99-00 we sucked on defense.

in 00-01 we add Doug Christie, Bobby Jackson, and Hedo Turkoglu, and all of a sudden we dramatrically improve. Coincidence? I think not. Doug especially becomes our defensive captain, the way Artest has been here now.

in 02-03 we add even more defenders in Keon Clark and Jim Jackson, and we take even another step forward defensively -- up to being basically the best in the league.

in 03-04, we lose Jim Jackson, Keon Clark, Hedo and Scot Pollard, lose Webb for the first half of the year (and his interior presence forever), lose Bobby for the second half of the year, and even Doug is aging, and not surprisingly the defense collapses.

Its right there on the end of everybody's nose for anybody who cares to look. Good defensive players = good defensive team. What's the very first thing that a "defensive mastermind" with GM type powers does when he has contorl of a team, whetehr it be Riley, Brown, Pop, whoever? Do they sit there and waste their time tryign to turn offensive players into defenders? No. They go out and start bringing in defensive players. Out go offensive talents like Tim Thomas, Jerry Stackhouse, Keith Van Horn, Glen Rice etc., in come Eric Snow and Theo Ratliff, and Zo Mounring, and Dan Majerle and Bruce Bowen.

But no, not here in Sacto. No here, the coach is just supposed to magically do what the great defensive coaches cannot and produce championship level defensive teams anchored by Darius Songaila and Brad Miller.

 

[thesanityannex]

Now, the Maloofs have decided we need to change horses in mid-stream. It might work out; it might end up being a disaster. They could have made this whole thing a lot less painful by thinking first. They didn't.

I'm sure they didn't think at all about this. It was probably just a coin flip, heads he stays, tails we fire him.

 

[coolhandluke]

Its right there on the end of everybody's nose for anybody who cares to look. Good defensive players = good defensive team. What's the very first thing that a "defensive mastermind" with GM type powers does when he has contorl of a team, whetehr it be Riley, Brown, Pop, whoever? Do they sit there and waste their time tryign to turn offensive players into defenders? No. They go out and start bringing in defensive players. Out go offensive talents like Tim Thomas, Jerry Stackhouse, Keith Van Horn, Glen Rice etc., in come Eric Snow and Theo Ratliff, and Zo Mounring, and Dan Majerle and Bruce Bowen.

But no, not here in Sacto. No here, the coach is just supposed to magically do what the great defensive coaches cannot and produce championship level defensive teams anchored by Darius Songaila and Brad Miller.

Well, it goes on to prove that Geoff Petrie and Rick Adelman, for some odd reason, did not work together to get more defensive minded players. All great coaches actively seek out to get the kind of players that would get them the championship. As I see no reason to believe that Rick had no input in the pursuit of players, part of the responsibility falls on his shoulders too. We saw Rick being held accountable, what about Petrie? Or do we just say that the Maloofs wanted a run and gun team and could care less about defense in those days? Alternately, we can also say that they left Petrie to his own ways and when results weren't coming, they interfered more in basketball operations. The truth lies somewhere in between.

 

[Geoff]

Well, it goes on to prove that Geoff Petrie and Rick Adelman, for some odd reason, did not work together to get more defensive minded players. All great coaches actively seek out to get the kind of players that would get them the championship. As I see no reason to believe that Rick had no input in the pursuit of players, part of the responsibility falls on his shoulders too. We saw Rick being held accountable, what about Petrie? Or do we just say that the Maloofs wanted a run and gun team and could care less about defense in those days? Alternately, we can also say that they left Petrie to his own ways and when results weren't coming, they interfered more in basketball operations. The truth lies somewhere in between.

Defensive players like who? Was Bruce Bowen available? Many people didn't want Gary Payton down here. Keon Clark makes Ron Artest look like Mr. Rogers in the "is he together?" department. I still do not have any idea why they didn't bring Jim Jackson back. And don't forget that money that could have paid this new defensive player was tied up in paying big contracts (that is not a dig at CWebb, I wish he were still in Sacto).

My point is that talk is cheap. You get who you can afford to pay for in this league, and who is willing to take your offer instead of someone elses.

 

[Bricklayer]

Well, it goes on to prove that Geoff Petrie and Rick Adelman, for some odd reason, did not work together to get more defensive minded players. All great coaches actively seek out to get the kind of players that would get them the championship. As I see no reason to believe that Rick had no input in the pursuit of players, part of the responsibility falls on his shoulders too. We saw Rick being held accountable, what about Petrie? Or do we just say that the Maloofs wanted a run and gun team and could care less about defense in those days? Alternately, we can also say that they left Petrie to his own ways and when results weren't coming, they interfered more in basketball operations. The truth lies somewhere in between.

And therein lies an interesting question as we close the book on the era. What was the balance between Petire, Adelman, and the Maloofs, on the types of players we acquired? I chose Riley, Brown and Pop on purpose because we have all seen what they do when they are the dominant voice in personnel decisions. Rick has never been that. But how much influence did he have? He has visibly squirmed as the team was taken apart over the last few years, and I can recall a number of times when he talked about how much things had changed and people shouldn;t have the same expectatiojns anymore. And how much influence did the Maloofs have? I know they used to just say "we leave it up to Geoff", then last summer they started talking about wanting to get defensive, and who was the main FA that Geoff pursues and brings to town? Shareef Abdur-Rahim, another offensive guy. Until of course they stepped in and apparently pushed through the Artest trade largely on their own.

 

[funkykingston]

And so it continues, with the Maloofs being the bad guys in one scenario and Rick Adelman in the other.

What about Geoff Petrie? How come he - the one who actually goes out and finds the players to bring to the team - is immune? He and Rick Adelman don't sit down and discuss what players Petrie is going to draft or trade. That's painfully obvious, especially after the Christie and Webber trades which came as total surprises to Adelman.

Rick may have made some mistakes. The Maloofs need to attend a "How to Manage Personnel" seminar. But, make no mistake about it...Geoff Petrie also deserves to shoulder some of the blame.

How many of us were SCREAMING for a big man to be drafted last year? Petrie loves the Princeton and he loves shooters.

Poeple might have been screaming for a big man to be drafted last year, but who could Petrie have grabbed that would have contributed more than Garcia? I can't think of a big man taken after the 23rd pick that contributed in any real way. Johan Petro? Mile Ilic? The guy I wanted was Ronny Turiaf, and we still don't know whether he'll be an NBA player since he has just returned after heart surgery.

Besides, I've been critical of Petrie in the past, but to me this issue has little to do with him. The Maloofs seem to have no problems with the roster. I disagree, but then, I don't make decisions for the team. It seems in their eyes that the pieces are there. That's Geoff's job and they seem satisfied by it. I can't see how they think coaching will make Bibby or Brad anything other than some of the NBA's worst defenders, but they certainly seem to be buying into the idea.

If we were discussing why the Kings weren't more successful, I think you must put the blame on Adelman AND Petrie. But this decision ostensibly comes from owners who believed they had a roster that underperformed due to problems with coaching.

In my opinion, they just let go of a coach who got the most out of a roster built with several obvious flaws.

 

[grin]

Did you see defense? I rest my somewhat confusing and rambling case...

UH-HUH

 

[whozit]

Defensive players like who? Was Bruce Bowen available? Many people didn't want Gary Payton down here. Keon Clark makes Ron Artest look like Mr. Rogers in the "is he together?" department. I still do not have any idea why they didn't bring Jim Jackson back. And don't forget that money that could have paid this new defensive player was tied up in paying big contracts (that is not a dig at CWebb, I wish he were still in Sacto).

My point is that talk is cheap. You get who you can afford to pay for in this league, and who is willing to take your offer instead of someone elses.

After '02-03, the team has slowly and steadily cut back on salary. It is no coincidence that the product on the floor diminished along the way. With more moves being made for business reasons rather than basketball ones the talent level slowly bled off.

The Coach can only work with what he is given.

The GM can only spend what he is alloted..........

and we shouldn't blame the owners for cutting back on their losses.

Each party should be given both their share of credit AND blame. All three had their parts in both. IMHO

 

[VF21]

I'm sure they didn't think at all about this. It was probably just a coin flip, heads he stays, tails we fire him.

You always seem to misinterpret my comments.

What I meant was they should have thought a little more about how this would play in the community, and they should have had a little more plan in place on how they would handle Adelman's departure.

 

[Kingsgurl]

Its right there on the end of everybody's nose for anybody who cares to look. Good defensive players = good defensive team. What's the very first thing that a "defensive mastermind" with GM type powers does when he has contorl of a team, whetehr it be Riley, Brown, Pop, whoever? Do they sit there and waste their time tryign to turn offensive players into defenders? No. They go out and start bringing in defensive players. Out go offensive talents like Tim Thomas, Jerry Stackhouse, Keith Van Horn, Glen Rice etc., in come Eric Snow and Theo Ratliff, and Zo Mounring, and Dan Majerle and Bruce Bowen.

But no, not here in Sacto. No here, the coach is just supposed to magically do what the great defensive coaches cannot and produce championship level defensive teams anchored by Darius Songaila and Brad Miller.

True statement. This season itself was a microcasm of that concept. Switch out Peja for Artest, and all the sudden the team is playing better defensively. The new coach will be a much better defensive guy just from virtue of never having anyone besides Artest to work with

 

[KingKong]

Um, that era is the time that actually PROVES Rick's point.

in 99-00 we sucked on defense.

in 00-01 we add Doug Christie, Bobby Jackson, and Hedo Turkoglu, and all of a sudden we dramatrically improve. Coincidence? I think not. Doug especially becomes our defensive captain, the way Artest has been here now.

in 02-03 we add even more defenders in Keon Clark and Jim Jackson, and we take even another step forward defensively -- up to being basically the best in the league.

in 03-04, we lose Jim Jackson, Keon Clark, Hedo and Scot Pollard, lose Webb for the first half of the year (and his interior presence forever), lose Bobby for the second half of the year, and even Doug is aging, and not surprisingly the defense collapses.

Its right there on the end of everybody's nose for anybody who cares to look. Good defensive players = good defensive team. What's the very first thing that a "defensive mastermind" with GM type powers does when he has contorl of a team, whetehr it be Riley, Brown, Pop, whoever? Do they sit there and waste their time tryign to turn offensive players into defenders? No. They go out and start bringing in defensive players. Out go offensive talents like Tim Thomas, Jerry Stackhouse, Keith Van Horn, Glen Rice etc., in come Eric Snow and Theo Ratliff, and Zo Mounring, and Dan Majerle and Bruce Bowen.

.

I actually meant the 02-03 season. Of our starting five, aside from Christie, who was really known as a good defensive player? None of them. They played great team defense. Yes we did have a great backup PG in Bobby Jackson who could play defense. Hedo Turkoglu.... are you kidding me? He was known for bringing in defense??? Jim Jackson might have been a decent defender but hardly made that much impact on the team, except for shooting 3's. Brad Miller was just as good a banger/ bruiser as Pollard was until he came to Sac. Keon Clarke did alter shots but how much playing time did he really see throughout the season. My point is that after failing in the playoffs the years prior, the Kings played with more of a commitment to defense. They realised they needed defense to win the title, and they were commited on that end of the floor. Adding a few defensive spare parts (not speaking of BJ here), does not make a great defensive team imo.

 

[shaka zulu]

I actually meant the 02-03 season. Of our starting five, aside from Christie, who was really known as a good defensive player? None of them. They played great team defense. Yes we did have a great backup PG in Bobby Jackson who could play defense. Hedo Turkoglu.... are you kidding me? He was known for bringing in defense??? Jim Jackson might have been a decent defender but hardly made that much impact on the team, except for shooting 3's. Brad Miller was just as good a banger/ bruiser as Pollard was until he came to Sac. Keon Clarke did alter shots but how much playing time did he really see throughout the season. My point is that after failing in the playoffs the years prior, the Kings played with more of a commitment to defense. They realised they needed defense to win the title, and they were commited on that end of the floor. Adding a few defensive spare parts (not speaking of BJ here), does not make a great defensive team imo.

They had better Defensive players, bobby jackson could come into the game and apply the needed Defensive pressure to slow down the penetration when Bibby was being hurt by opposing Teams point guards, He didn't need much help in guarding his man 1 on 1, He also kept his man Busy on the other end by appplying Pressure offensively, Bobby played 20 minutes a Game, Keon clark played 20 minutes as well during the Regular Season, He also got Big minutes early on in the Season Due to Webber being supended Early on from substance rule or it may have been Vlade injured, But keon played alot of minutes,And Early on keon was leading the league in Block shots, He also was on the court for many closeouts at the end of the game, He hit two game winners against the Mavericks this Season, So he played a Significant role in the Team being Better Defensively with his 7'5 wing span with plenty of playing time.


Webber was also slim this season and Real Trim, He had good numbers in Block shots and he was quicker to the ball and the help Defensive Schemes, The kings were clearly better Defensively because of the personel, They had Good Defenders in jim jackson who played alot of minutes in crunch time, Bobby jackson, Doug Christe, all on the perimeter stopping penetration, Then when you came to the paint you had a Shot blocker in keon clark, Scott pollard with physical play a Chris Webebr who was physical and Tough and a Vlade divac with a Bag of Tricks Now when Brad came from indiana he was known to make hard sometimes flagrant fouls, But the spoils of the system on offense with Brad getting triple Doubles making all start Teams, kind of soften Brad's Game up, So he wasn't a Physical as Scott pollard in a Kings unifrom.


The kings in 2002-2003 had Good 1 on 1 Defenders As well as good Team Defenders which helped them hold Teams to a low field goal shooting percentage.

 

[striker]

HAHA! Well, neither could Bill Laimbeer or Bill Walton, but they mopped up the floor defensively all the damn time...hell, Luc Walton and Bill Wennington played better defense than them.

Off Topic. You must have never seen Walton pre-foot injuries. He was a very good jumper, particularly able to get off the floor quickly a second and third time.

On topic. Eventually Kings' fans will have to let it go, hope that whoever Maloff gets is a good coach. At least the players like Artest seem to be onboard with wanting to stay with the Kings.

Also in getting a new coach you have a better chance of cleaing out Miller and changing the offense which imo you have to do. The personell you have, at least an important half of them, isn't suited to the passing Princeton offense game that Adelman may want to cling to.

 

[Bricklayer]

I actually meant the 02-03 season. Of our starting five, aside from Christie, who was really known as a good defensive player? None of them. They played great team defense. Yes we did have a great backup PG in Bobby Jackson who could play defense. Hedo Turkoglu.... are you kidding me? He was known for bringing in defense??? Jim Jackson might have been a decent defender but hardly made that much impact on the team, except for shooting 3's. Brad Miller was just as good a banger/ bruiser as Pollard was until he came to Sac. Keon Clarke did alter shots but how much playing time did he really see throughout the season. My point is that after failing in the playoffs the years prior, the Kings played with more of a commitment to defense. They realised they needed defense to win the title, and they were commited on that end of the floor. Adding a few defensive spare parts (not speaking of BJ here), does not make a great defensive team imo.

You're confused about a few things:

1) Hedo Turkoglu is a good, long and versatile defender. Good enough to play for Pop in fact.
2) Jim Jackson played above his head that year, but had always been tough and physical on the defensive end.
3) Scot Polard was ALWAYS a better rebounder, shotblocker, and banger than Brad. Brad's BEST years as a shotblocker rebounder came right here in Sacto.
4) Bobby was an impact player, and also got to start for 1/3 of the season.
5) Keon was huge
6) Webb was never a great defender, but he could be when he wanted to, and was precisely the atheltic shotblocking rebounding PF we haven't had since that year.

Every single guy we brought off the bench brought the defense. And they were versatile. And our non-defensive coach mixed and matched them to make use of that versatility. It was CLEARLY the best defensive crew we ever assembled in Sacto. In fact I don't think there was anybody who DIDN'T bring something on defense except for the very weak links we decided to build around for the future.

By the next year we lost ground defensively at nearly every one of those positions, and the devastation to our frontline was particularly severe. We lost size and strength everywhere. We went from a healthy Chris Webber, Keon Clark and Scot Pollard, to Brad Miller, Darius Songaila and Tony Massenburg. From Hedo to Peeler. Jim Jackson to Buford. Doug started slowing with age. Bobby got hurt.

This is not rocket science, unless you are a Maloof.