Luka Doncic (pre and post-draft discussion thread)

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Found this interesting that Luka Doncic actually has a negative On/Off on Real Madrid this year.

His team scored 1.8 more points per 100 possessions with him on the court but...
opponents scored 2.6 more points per 100 possessions with him on the court

Meaning his team is 0.8 points per 100 possessions BETTER with him off the floor.

I was shocked when I saw this statistic. Can anyone bring up another Euroleague MVP that has had a negative on/off? Has there ever been a NBA MVP that has had a negative on/off? This seems insane to me!

Does Doncic actually translate into winning basketball when his current team is actually better with him off the floor?

http://overbasket.com/rsplayers.php?tab=32&year=2017&pcode=005929&cmp=EL
 
You think c-webb, amare, kemp, and blake are/were elite defensively? maybe good but none were elite.
Webb and Kemp were elite defensively. Amare wasn't a winning player without an elite offensive player. Blake has playmaking skills that is rare in a big and was a good defender earlier in his career.
 
MINOR TECHNICALITY: Until Adam Silver reads the name on the card, we don't know who the pick will be. The Kings don't even turn in their pick until AFTER the Suns have made theirs.
Even after the Kings pick, we really can't rest easy until the night is over.

There is always a chance of a post selection trade. :oops:
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
PLEASE NOTE: I've created a separate "OFFICIAL premature reaction thread" for all of you who seem to think our pick has already been announced. Maybe just post there instead of spreading it throughout a bunch of different threads? Thanks.
 
When picking 2nd in the draft you don't draft for fit you draft for best player. With that said you're basically saying that Bagley is better than Doncic. Most draft experts are saying that Doncic is the better player. Many have Doncic as the best player in the draft. You know more than all of them? Who knows maybe you do but you don't have proof of being 100% right either.
I think Bagley is the better fit and superior talent. Of course I don't have proof of being 100% right. No one does. This is game of probabilities not certainty. I like Luka. He's good. He's also good looking. He has the wry smile. He has an infectious style of play. He has a compelling story, outplaying the competition as a "boy amongst men". Everyone loves a good story. This triggers emotion. Emotions are used to make decisions over facts, including decision to conclude Luka would be the best choice. But emotion-based decisions can mislead, circumventing the logical mind and neocortex-based thinking that leads to superior decisions. Ask yourself do you like Luka because he is likable? Be honest. Of course the answer is yes. But realize this is not enough if you want to take the player that is going to help your team to win at highest rate. I set aside the likability factor and the hype. Just like I did last year when I predicted Lonzo Bust would be a relative bust unworthy of franchise tage. I stand by that assessment when fans were wanting to package the #5 and #10 to draft him. The point is if you breakdown Lukas game with critical eye and come to conclusion he is the best choice, I respect that. If you talk about his awards and how he achieved so much at so young of an age, I am out. I look at what he does on the floor and through this filter I am less than blown away. I am more impressed by what Bagley can do and who he can be.
 
Webb and Kemp were elite defensively. Amare wasn't a winning player without an elite offensive player. Blake has playmaking skills that is rare in a big and was a good defender earlier in his career.
Webber was never an eiite defensive player. He could at times play good defense but only for short periods of time. He could be very lazy at times on defense. That said, I would take Chris Webber on my team 10/10 times due to the many other areas that he excelled in.
 

VF21

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I told myself that I wasn’t going to check in here anymore until after 8:30 (EDST) and the Kings have made their pick, but dang, it’s like watching a train wreck, I just can’t look away. Lord help me, I need more self discipline :eek:
Just ride the insanity train with the knowledge that it won't last too much longer. :p
 
When picking 2nd in the draft you don't draft for fit you draft for best player. With that said you're basically saying that Bagley is better than Doncic. Most draft experts are saying that Doncic is the better player. Many have Doncic as the best player in the draft. You know more than all of them? Who knows maybe you do but you don't have proof of being 100% right either.

Many draft analysts including ex-NBA players said Bagley is the best player in the draft. Now, that may be because they are not familiar with Doncic, but as far as I can tell; it's 50/50 those who say one or the other is better.

The difference is that those who had Doncic better really hated Bagley, while those who like Bagley acknowledges Doncic is also a good player. But on the flip side, those who likes Doncic usually admit he will at best be the 2nd or 3rd best player on a good team; while those who likes Bagley more usually think he can be the #1 guy.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
Many draft analysts including ex-NBA players said Bagley is the best player in the draft. Now, that may be because they are not familiar with Doncic, but as far as I can tell; it's 50/50 those who say one or the other is better.

The difference is that those who had Doncic better really hated Bagley, while those who like Bagley acknowledges Doncic is also a good player. But on the flip side, those who likes Doncic usually admit he will at best be the 2nd or 3rd best player on a good team; while those who likes Bagley more usually think he can be the #1 guy.
None of this is true. Nobody really hates Bagley -- I think the reaction mostly comes from the perception that Doncic is the best player in the draft and Bagley is somewhere in the 4-10 range. If you're going to pass on the consensus best player in the draft I'd hope you're at least getting a guy ranked in the top 3. If we're actually in on Bagley simply because he likes Sacramento and no one else does that's an incredibly sad indictment of the state of our franchise. Very few people think Bagley is the best player in the draft. Maybe 10% at most.
 
if we don’t take Doncic I’m slapping the hell out of someone

If Fox can’t shoot it’s wont matter how good Bagley/Giles are teams would just double them. Why would you be worried about taking the ball out of his hands likes he’s a proven superstar. And even then you still do it
 
if we don’t take Doncic I’m slapping the hell out of someone

If Fox can’t shoot it’s wont matter how good Bagley/Giles are teams would just double them. Why would you be worried about taking the ball out of his hands likes he’s a proven superstar. And even then you still do it
Lots of slapping threats going on at Kingsfans.com. Glad this is the internet and I'm not at the draft party :D
 
I think Bagley is the better fit and superior talent. Of course I don't have proof of being 100% right. No one does. This is game of probabilities not certainty. I like Luka. He's good. He's also good looking. He has the wry smile. He has an infectious style of play. He has a compelling story, outplaying the competition as a "boy amongst men". Everyone loves a good story. This triggers emotion. Emotions are used to make decisions over facts, including decision to conclude Luka would be the best choice. But emotion-based decisions can mislead, circumventing the logical mind and neocortex-based thinking that leads to superior decisions. Ask yourself do you like Luka because he is likable? Be honest. Of course the answer is yes. But realize this is not enough if you want to take the player that is going to help your team to win at highest rate. I set aside the likability factor and the hype. Just like I did last year when I predicted Lonzo Bust would be a relative bust unworthy of franchise tage. I stand by that assessment when fans were wanting to package the #5 and #10 to draft him. The point is if you breakdown Lukas game with critical eye and come to conclusion he is the best choice, I respect that. If you talk about his awards and how he achieved so much at so young of an age, I am out. I look at what he does on the floor and through this filter I am less than blown away. I am more impressed by what Bagley can do and who he can be.
Well said and you make some valid points but I assure you I'm not basing my own thoughts on Luka on emotions. I never base sports, business, or many decisions in general on emotion. In general data, statistics, and following trends within those will lead you to better results.

I do think myself and others base our like of Luka Doncic on his game and specifically the intangibles and rare traits that you quite frankly just don't see in many players. His accolades are very much a byproduct of these traits. You talk about Luka like he's all flash, looks, and smile and then talk about winning games? What do you think he's been doing? All he has been doing is winning and winning everything there is to win!

Quite simply the way he plays is why he's winning games and that's also why people are paying attention. That "infectious style" also just happens to be a winning style. Now in today's NBA that is true more than ever. It's a free-flowing game where pushing the offense, making the extra pass, and running the pick-n-roll to collapse the defense and free up shooters is the key to success. This isn't 1997 anymore.

Players with tremendous vision, passing ability, and basketball IQ are generally winning players because they make their teammates better. Granted you need to have a combination of traits and athletic abilities to succeed in the NBA but to me basketball IQ and making your teammates better are the two most important traits a player can have. Luka will make his teammates better, Bagley really won't other than maybe whatever guard is feeding him the ball. I like Bagley too and think he will be a solid maybe even really good player but I just don't see anything obviously special about him. The lack of defense at Duke is a major concern.

Since you mentioned it, yes Luka is a good looking dude with a great smile but honestly I've been looking at his mom. She is stunning.
 
None of this is true. Nobody really hates Bagley -- I think the reaction mostly comes from the perception that Doncic is the best player in the draft and Bagley is somewhere in the 4-10 range. If you're going to pass on the consensus best player in the draft I'd hope you're at least getting a guy ranked in the top 3. If we're actually in on Bagley simply because he likes Sacramento and no one else does that's an incredibly sad indictment of the state of our franchise. Very few people think Bagley is the best player in the draft. Maybe 10% at most.
Many people thinks Bagley is the best player or at least better than Doncic in this draft. To say Doncic is the "consensus best player in the draft" is hyperbolic, maybe before the college season started but certainly not right now.

You don't have to agree with them, you may think you know better than them, but there are plenty of people who are higher on Bagley than Doncic.

https://www.foxsports.com/watch/the-herd-with-colin-cowherd/video/1260142659522

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/6/19/17479658/nba-draft-vernon-will-not-fail

http://www.nba.com/video/2018/06/18/20180618-draft-hq-marvin-bagley

 
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VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
I don’t understand these writers all claiming they wouldn’t break the draft news, but, here we are. So annoying

I hope they’re wrong
They're aren't breaking any draft news. It's ALL speculation. What they're promising not to do - which I don't entirely believe - is tweet out the next pick before Adam Silver gets to the podium to announce it. I personally hope Vlade has a couple of card handy and, depending on who Adam says first, he hands it in immediately, possibly even jumping onto the stage to hand it to him.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
Such terrible reasoning. I like Fox and I hope he takes a huge step forward next season but right now he's a non-shooting, non-playmaking PG who didn't make either the first or second all-rookie team, who was an atrocious defender last season and who had a lower PER than Lonzo Ball who Blob is already calling a bust. To let that player shape your draft strategy for the #2 pick in what's widely regarded as a very strong draft up top is just stupid.
 
Such terrible reasoning. I like Fox and I hope he takes a huge step forward next season but right now he's a non-shooting, non-playmaking PG who didn't make either the first or second all-rookie team, who was an atrocious defender last season and who had a lower PER than Lonzo Ball who Blob is already calling a bust. To let that player shape your draft strategy for the #2 pick in what's widely regarded as a very strong draft up top is just stupid.
Don't worry, we can just tank again next year and get it right. Oh...... wait a minute :(
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
Many people thinks Bagley is the best player or at least better than Doncic in this draft. To say Doncic is the "consensus best player in the draft" is hyperbolic, maybe before the college season started but certainly not right now.

You don't have to agree with them, you may think you know better than them, but there are plenty of people who are higher on Bagley than Doncic.

https://www.foxsports.com/watch/the-herd-with-colin-cowherd/video/1260142659522

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/6/19/17479658/nba-draft-vernon-will-not-fail

http://www.nba.com/video/2018/06/18/20180618-draft-hq-marvin-bagley

 
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